Long Game 67: The Road to Urithiru

[|TJ|]

Well, if you want discussion from me as to why you shouldn't lynch me, I think I've been helpful for the village in the games I've played so far, and there's no reason for me to get lynched before I can prove to be helpful. Unless of course you're an elim, in which case you'd obviously not want me to be helpful

[Mat]

I’m more interested in the reason for @Elbereth’s vote then I am in your defense, TJ 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Matrim's Dice

[|TJ|]

Well she did say it was to generate discussion. Basically to get people talking, and to see whoever defends/attacks me or is/isn't interested in lynching me as that info would be useful later. Is that your intention, @Elbereth?

[Gears]

@Elbereth, I would appreciate it if you would provide some reasoning for your vote on TJ, who has done absolutely nothing except for warning those with Division and telling me that I stole xino's schtick. 

EDIT: ninja'd by TJ. Side note, I don't have anything against lynching TJ, I just don't see why specifically TJ

Edited July 1, 2020 by Gears

[StrikerEZ]

First, I'm gonna ask Straw some questions. @Straw If/when PMs are open, are group PMs allowed? Can someone who is already a Radiant become someone else's squire? If Player A is using Abrasion on themselves, Player B targets Player A with Progression, and Player C targets Player A with a kill while using Gravitation, what happens to Player A?

5 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

2. I’ve thought about how to coordinate Illumination but best I can come up with is top / bottom half of the player list use it N1/2 and N2/3, but once there’s a squire they’ll be able to coordinate with their radiant and get PMs all the time  

I really don't think there's very good way to coordinate the Illumination actions. Depending on the distribution, we probably have at least two people with it, maybe a third if we have two of either the Lightweavers or Truthwatchers (if we have two of either of them, I'm leaning towards Truthwatcher being doubled). The best way to do it is probably the way you said, but even then, what if all of our Illumiation users are in the top half of the player list, for example? It's just gonna be really tricky to coordinate it, until at least one of them makes a squire. Though the squire could just end up getting the other surge, and then the Radiant has to try again.

10 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

BE CAREFUL ABOUT CLAIMING. Including if you’re completely vanilla  There are probably fewer people with roles in this game than usual, because of how ridiculously powerful the roles are, and so the elims will very much want to kill all the village roles as soon as possible  I’m not going to say you should never claim but please be extremely careful.

This. The elims are just dying to know who the village Radiants are, so at best you should only claim to someone you scan as village or someone who mechanically must be a villager (which won't really be possible to figure out until the late game). 

Also, I think we probably have 5-6 elims, though I'm leaning towards 6, since that would be exactly 25% and I like that exactness. I think we can basically rule out any Dustbringers/Skybreakers as elims, though, obviously, please don't publicly claim these roles, at least not now. There's not enough protects in this game to guarantee that you'll survive at that point, and the elims have no reason not to try and kill you every night. As for what Radiants they might have, I'm thinking Windrunner, Edgedancer, and Stoneward are probably the most useful for the elims. Windrunner and Stoneward both have a vote manipulation ability and an ability that doesn't do basically the same thing for their second surge (i.e. Bondsmith). Windrunner and Edgedancer both have the ability to make it so an action can't be prevented, which is great for the elim kill. And Edgedancer has the protection as well. So, I think those are the three orders that are most likely to be elims. Granted, Straw could've gone completely crazy and giving them like a Lightweaver or something.

[Ashbringer]

Aye to that. It’s a bit odd to poke vote someone who’s already posted D1... as far as I can see. But I don’t think I like the D1 lynch anyways (thanks, Pyro...) 

Word on Dustbringer vs Skybreaker: don’t be afraid to kill who you suspect, but also don’t forget you have other surges.

Skybreakers it could be nice to keep 2 stormlight charges on hand unless you have solid suspicions, as you can combine Gravitation+Division for an essentially unblockable kill for when you REALLY need it.

Dustbringers can be a bit more free with their Division, methinks, although keeping an Abrasion charge to avoid a kill could be useful.

And the problem with constantly keeping a PM open is that the two Illumination roles (Truthwatcher and Lightweaver) have really useful other surges. Truthwatchers protect, Lightweavers scan.

LG13 there was an Elim Windrunner, I believe.

[Elbereth]

@Gears why do you think redirecting the kill is less useful than blocking it? 

@Gears part 2 (I’m not multiquoting because mobile is a pain y’all) I’m doing it because for instance your response makes me think you’re more likely to be good.  

@StrikerEZ no group PMs, Radiants can’t be squired (both of those are in the clarifications doc I think). And yes, it’s entirely possible that people with Illumination are all in the top or bottom half of the player list but I don’t have anything better sorry.  

Also yeah there are almost definitely - hm does Progression have any limits on it in terms of not twice in a row or whatever? I guess the charges thing makes up for that... anyway there are almost definitely not enough protects to cover if you claim so Please Do Not. 

@Ashbringer what would be the point of voting on someone who hasn’t shown up yet? 

[Gears]

Just now, Elbereth said:

@Gears why do you think redirecting the kill is less useful than blocking it? 

Assuming the kill target and the redirector are both village, the odds that a redirected kill [in the early game[ hits an elim is low. In the late game, it might be better, if just to clear suspicions. 

[Ookla-son-son-Ventyl]

I find it funny that @Gears is becoming the new Xino (I wonder what Xino thinks...). 

Anyways, I think the role analysis we have so far is helpful and none of it is RI or AI. So it may be helpful for those who are confused about their roles, but I don’t think it will generate much discussion. Though, I’m about to contradict myself. I think that anyone who has Abrasion should probably use it during the middle of the time periods between Stormlight refills. Unless of course you think you’ll be targeted. And to say something about claiming, I think Truthwatchers and Edgedancers should be careful, y’all are the only protection roles in the game. But given that, that means we have at least one village protection. I doubt that if there is only one Edgedancers and Truthwatcher, that they’d both be on the elim team. So I think we have at least one village protection, maybe two if there is two Edgedancers and/or Truthwatchers.

Well I’ll pace a poke vote on A Joe in the Bush (@A Joe in the Bush). I would’ve posted it on Ashbringer out of frustration from the last LG, but they’ve already posted .

[Straw]

4 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

First, I'm gonna ask Straw some questions. @Straw If/when PMs are open, are group PMs allowed? Can someone who is already a Radiant become someone else's squire? If Player A is using Abrasion on themselves, Player B targets Player A with Progression, and Player C targets Player A with a kill while using Gravitation, what happens to Player A?

1. PMs are one on one.

2. No. This is stated in the rules.

3. They would die, since Progression would never hit them. Following the order of actions:

• Player A gains Abrasion effect, Player C gains Gravitation effect.
• Player B uses Progression on Player A, but it fails due to Abrasion.
• Player C kills Player A, since Gravitation counteracts Abrasion.

[Gears]

I believe I have accidentally both undervalued and overvalued Abrasion. As most of the actions that one would be targeted with are action manipulation, Abrasion does indirectly protect one's actions. However, as Division would almost certainly be boosted by Gravitation whilst Progression would not, you could be dooming yourself to a painful death to protect your actions. As such, Abrasion to protect oneself is not incredibly effective unless it is being used to protect Division or Progression. Of course, as Abrasion is typically paired with those Surges [sorry, squires], there is an incentive to use it and thus doom oneself to be struck down by your hubris. 

[Araris Valerian]

I’ll put my vote on Ventyl. I’ll also point out the no lynch vote minimum, so currently one of TJ, Joe, and Ventyl is slated to die.

[StrikerEZ]

22 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

@Ashbringer what would be the point of voting on someone who hasn’t shown up yet?

To put pressure on them so they'll have a reason to get on and say something. And at that point you can decide whether to keep your vote on them or not, depending on how they act when they show up. I normally do it for that reason, if I do it at all. Sometimes, assuming you're tagging them when you poke vote them, it serves as a reminder for them to get on the game. 

I'm not sure why I understand why you're voting for TJ, or why Ventyl is voting for Joe, or why Araris just voted for Ventyl. I don't really see much of a reason to vote on anyone yet.

[Mat]

Just now, StrikerEZ said:

I'm not sure why I understand why you're voting for TJ, or why Ventyl is voting for Joe, or why Araris just voted for Ventyl. I don't really see much of a reason to vote on anyone yet.

Ahhh, the famous 'value of a poke vote' argument . Kinda funny that this is coming up as it was just discussed in the Discord.

[Gears]

The game has been going on for 2.5 hours. I see no point in voting until we at least have mild suspicions. 

[Elbereth]

I’m still on mobile but multiquotes here I cooome

@Ashbringer To be honest I would probably use Illumination over Progression most times, because village protection roles very rarely make a difference. Over alignment scans...... ehhhh. I personally would probably use illumination at least half the time, but that’s mainly because of my personal dislike of alignment scans (I would go for Surges more though probably?) (and also if I were a whichever-has-scans in this particular game, I would do absolutely no alignment scans because I’m village and ridiculously excited about it and I’m determined to solve this game the old fashioned way ). 

27 minutes ago, Gears said:

Assuming the kill target and the redirector are both village, the odds that a redirected kill [in the early game[ hits an elim is low. In the late game, it might be better, if just to clear suspicions. 

What about the value of catching an eliminator?  A roleblocker can be much less certain about such things. 

24 minutes ago, Ventyl said:

Anyways, I think the role analysis we have so far is helpful and none of it is RI or AI. So it may be helpful for those who are confused about their roles, but I don’t think it will generate much discussion. Though, I’m about to contradict myself. I think that anyone who has Abrasion should probably use it during the middle of the time periods between Stormlight refills. Unless of course you think you’ll be targeted.

1. I’m assuming RI stands for role indicative? In which case, why do you care? 

2. Could you explain why you think Abrasion should be used at that particular time? 

4 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

To put pressure on them so they'll have a reason to get on and say something. And at that point you can decide whether to keep your vote on them or not, depending on how they act when they show up. I normally do it for that reason, if I do it at all. Sometimes, assuming you're tagging them when you poke vote them, it serves as a reminder for them to get on the game. 

No one should need a reason to get on and say something beyond “oh look the game started!” - would you have posted any faster if you saw you had a vote on you? How many people read the thread and then just don’t bother to post unless they have a vote in them? 

Also, Straw already tagged everyone in his opening post. Don’t need a vote in order to tag people. 

2 minutes ago, Gears said:

The game has been going on for 2.5 hours. I see no point in voting until we at least have mild suspicions. 

How will we get mild suspicions if not by voting?  Also, I’ve got one mild suspicion already! 

TJ Shade. Ventyl. 

wheeeeeeeeeeeeee this is fun

[Ashbringer]

Elbereth - isn’t that how poke votes usually work? At least to see if people have things to say and contribute?

I also don’t really like PM planning, mainly because it really backfired on me last game. Although it’s probably better than randomly firing protection. Scans are probably more useful, although alignment vs role is debatable.

Ventyl - I... uh... well, I was right, wasn’t I?  I also specifically tried to avoid it in the QF, but the entire rest of my team voted on you... let’s just say that Faleast will be very confused if he re-meets Pyria or Lafay after removing them in the LG.

I’m holding my vote until something more suspicious pops up, and when I have time to partially analyze.

[Gears]

2 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

What about the value of catching an eliminator?  A roleblocker can be much less certain about such things.

Scenario 1: Person A has Transportation and Transports Person B's action onto Person C. Person C dies. This could be because Person B was the killer, or because Person C was slated to die anyways. Scenario 2: Person A has Adhesion and Adheres Person B's Action. There is no death. Someone else could have roleblocked the killer. There is no certainty in either scenario. There are also numerous other scenarios that could occur given these parameters. Transportation is only more valuable than the roleblock when one is certain that the only action the target is taking is a kill.

7 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

How will we get mild suspicions if not by voting?  Also, I’ve got one mild suspicion already! 

Talking. In my admittedly inexperienced opinion, voting on someone for no purpose is meaningless. I am not opposed to a lynch, but it should be an informed, intentional lynch [as much as a lynch can be C1] 

[Ookla-son-son-Ventyl]

24 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

To put pressure on them so they'll have a reason to get on and say something. And at that point you can decide whether to keep your vote on them or not, depending on how they act when they show up. I normally do it for that reason, if I do it at all. Sometimes, assuming you're tagging them when you poke vote them, it serves as a reminder for them to get on the game. 

I'm not sure why I understand why you're voting for TJ, or why Ventyl is voting for Joe, or why Araris just voted for Ventyl. I don't really see much of a reason to vote on anyone yet.

My vote on Joe is a poke. Also, I’m curious about @Araris Valerian’s vote on me. Considering I think pokes should really only be used to get people who haven’t posted to post something, I don’t see a reason for it, as I’ve already posted.

12 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

I’m still on mobile but multiquotes here I cooome

@Ashbringer To be honest I would probably use Illumination over Progression most times, because village protection roles very rarely make a difference. Over alignment scans...... ehhhh. I personally would probably use illumination at least half the time, but that’s mainly because of my personal dislike of alignment scans (I would go for Surges more though probably?) (and also if I were a whichever-has-scans in this particular game, I would do absolutely no alignment scans because I’m village and ridiculously excited about it and I’m determined to solve this game the old fashioned way ). 

What about the value of catching an eliminator?  A roleblocker can be much less certain about such things. 

1. I’m assuming RI stands for role indicative? In which case, why do you care? 

2. Could you explain why you think Abrasion should be used at that particular time? 

No one should need a reason to get on and say something beyond “oh look the game started!” - would you have posted any faster if you saw you had a vote on you? How many people read the thread and then just don’t bother to post unless they have a vote in them? 

Also, Straw already tagged everyone in his opening post. Don’t need a vote in order to tag people. 

How will we get mild suspicions if not by voting?  Also, I’ve got one mild suspicion already! 

TJ Shade. Ventyl. 

wheeeeeeeeeeeeee this is fun

I’ll number my responses to your thoughts on me in the same order you gave them;

1. Yes it does! (Maybe I can get this to be a new thing! ). And that part was really just supposed to advertise my amazing acronym, though considering that it’s already back-fired and gotten you suspicious of me, maybe there’s a reason no one uses anything similar. 
2. I was just saying that using midway through seems like you would have a better chance of protecting yourself from actions. I’m trying to think of an analogy for it but struggling... I’l get back to that when I think of one. 

6 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Elbereth - isn’t that how poke votes usually work? At least to see if people have things to say and contribute?

I also don’t really like PM planning, mainly because it really backfired on me last game. Although it’s probably better than randomly firing protection. Scans are probably more useful, although alignment vs role is debatable.

Ventyl - I... uh... well, I was right, wasn’t I?  I also specifically tried to avoid it in the QF, but the entire rest of my team voted on you... let’s just say that Faleast will be very confused if he re-meets Pyria or Lafay after removing them in the LG.

I’m holding my vote until something more suspicious pops up, and when I have time to partially analyze.

I’m still angry, my first game as an elim, ruined... 

Spoiler

We won’t be seeing anymore of Lafay, which is sad. Maybe someone can think about what that means... 

Maybe, I’ll make my character his dead wife, before she died?

EDIT: This game will probably be who she dies, knowing my luck in SE. Don’t think I’ve ever actually lived to the end of one...

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Ventyl

[Elbereth]

1 hour ago, TJ Shade said:

Well, if you want discussion from me as to why you shouldn't lynch me, I think I've been helpful for the village in the games I've played so far, and there's no reason for me to get lynched before I can prove to be helpful. Unless of course you're an elim, in which case you'd obviously not want me to be helpful

Nah, I’d still want you to be helpful.  Helpful is good! 

14 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Elbereth - isn’t that how poke votes usually work? At least to see if people have things to say and contribute?

That is the theory behind poke votes, yes. I happen to be of the opinion that poke votes aren’t in fact useful whatsoever, as briefly laid out by the questions to Striker in my previous post. If I decided to vote you before you posted, would that make you any more likely or unlikely to post? Would you feel pressure from a single vote that I’d probably take off as soon as you posted?
Also, voting on people who are around to discuss and talk is way more useful and interesting and discussion is my primary win condition.  

10 minutes ago, Gears said:

Scenario 1: Person A has Transportation and Transports Person B's action onto Person C. Person C dies. This could be because Person B was the killer, or because Person C was slated to die anyways. Scenario 2: Person A has Adhesion and Adheres Person B's Action. There is no death. Someone else could have roleblocked the killer. There is no certainty in either scenario. There are also numerous other scenarios that could occur given these parameters. Transportation is only more valuable than the roleblock when one is certain that the only action the target is taking is a kill.

Talking. In my admittedly inexperienced opinion, voting on someone for no purpose is meaningless. I am not opposed to a lynch, but it should be an informed, intentional lynch [as much as a lynch can be C1] 

I agree there’s uncertainty in both cases, but I still think a redirect is much more informative. @Straw you probably clarified this but I’m lazy, if you redirect someone who took no action are you told that it’s a success or a failure or? 

Inexperience is fine! I like new opinions! And I agree completely - voting someone for no purpose is meaningless, because there’s nothing for the person in question to respond to nor do they feel particularly pressured by a vote that isn’t out there with intent to lynch. (does someone want to pull up Kas’ LG12 post that’s vaguely relevant here) (I should just rewrite a nicer version of that shouldn’t I) And just as importantly, it doesn’t create any discussion! Because you’re right, talking is exactly how we get suspicions, but we need some way to create that discussion and make it alignment-indicative (like roles discussion generally isn’t).

Which is why my votes do have intent to lynch, and are as non-random as possible. Ventyl now has two votes on him! What do people think about that? Do people start a counterwagon? Do they frown disapprovingly at me and Araris? Regardless of what happens, he’s now actually under pressure and that is what creates alignment indicative discussion! 

EDIT: and @Ventyl, it’s a nice acronym but why do you care what roles other people have.  What makes you think that none of the role discussion isn’t indicative, and why is that something you’re thinking about? 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Elbereth

[Ookla-son-son-Ventyl]

4 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

Nah, I’d still want you to be helpful.  Helpful is good! 

That is the theory behind poke votes, yes. I happen to be of the opinion that poke votes aren’t in fact useful whatsoever, as briefly laid out by the questions to Striker in my previous post. If I decided to vote you before you posted, would that make you any more likely or unlikely to post? Would you feel pressure from a single vote that I’d probably take off as soon as you posted?
Also, voting on people who are around to discuss and talk is way more useful and interesting and discussion is my primary win condition.  

I agree there’s uncertainty in both cases, but I still think a redirect is much more informative. @Straw you probably clarified this but I’m lazy, if you redirect someone who took no action are you told that it’s a success or a failure or? 

Inexperience is fine! I like new opinions! And I agree completely - voting someone for no purpose is meaningless, because there’s nothing for the person in question to respond to nor do they feel particularly pressured by a vote that isn’t out there with intent to lynch. (does someone want to pull up Kas’ LG12 post that’s vaguely relevant here) (I should just rewrite a nicer version of that shouldn’t I) And just as importantly, it doesn’t create any discussion! Because you’re right, talking is exactly how we get suspicions, but we need some way to create that discussion and make it alignment-indicative (like roles discussion generally isn’t).

Which is why my votes do have intent to lynch, and are as non-random as possible. Ventyl now has two votes on him! What do people think about that? Do people start a counterwagon? Do they frown disapprovingly at me and Araris? Regardless of what happens, he’s now actually under pressure and that is what creates alignment indicative discussion! 

EDIT: and @Ventyl, it’s a nice acronym but why do you care what roles other people have.  What makes you think that none of the role discussion isn’t indicative, and why is that something you’re thinking about? 

Considering my role, it would be good for the village for me to know someone’s role or have an idea of it.

EDIT: This doesn’t mean I want anyone to roleclaim in thread, but when we get PM’s I can offer my services to anyone I trust.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Ventyl

[Straw]

4 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

I agree there’s uncertainty in both cases, but I still think a redirect is much more informative. @Straw you probably clarified this but I’m lazy, if you redirect someone who took no action are you told that it’s a success or a failure or? 

In general, you're not given any information about the results of your actions. You have to use the information you can see (writeup, PMs open/closed, Transformation results) to figure out what happened.

[Mat]

5 minutes ago, Ventyl said:

Considering my role, it would be good for the village for me to know someone’s role or have an idea of it.

EDIT: This doesn’t mean I want anyone to roleclaim in thread, but when we get PM’s I can offer my services to anyone I trust.

This sort of seems like it could be a good way to get villagers to claim to elims.
 

Echoing multiple others, BE CAREFUL 

[Elbereth]

8 minutes ago, Ventyl said:

Considering my role, it would be good for the village for me to know someone’s role or have an idea of it.

EDIT: This doesn’t mean I want anyone to roleclaim in thread, but when we get PM’s I can offer my services to anyone I trust.

*squints* 
I mean. I said people shouldn’t claim but oookay.  I... struggle to see this from an elim perspective at the moment, anyone else have thoughts there?

Ventyl. Matrim for that latest post - not because it’s wrong, Ventyl could be doing a very clever elim play right now, but. It seems much more likely to be village, and that warning feels a bit like damage control from an elim trying to prevent a trust circle from happening / keep Ventyl from looking quite as good as he does now. 

[StrikerEZ]

25 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

@Ashbringer To be honest I would probably use Illumination over Progression most times, because village protection roles very rarely make a difference. Over alignment scans...... ehhhh. I personally would probably use illumination at least half the time, but that’s mainly because of my personal dislike of alignment scans (I would go for Surges more though probably?) (and also if I were a whichever-has-scans in this particular game, I would do absolutely no alignment scans because I’m village and ridiculously excited about it and I’m determined to solve this game the old fashioned way ).

What's so bad about alignment scans? I'm personally a big fan of them. *flashbacks to AG6*

25 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

No one should need a reason to get on and say something beyond “oh look the game started!” - would you have posted any faster if you saw you had a vote on you? How many people read the thread and then just don’t bother to post unless they have a vote in them? 

Also, Straw already tagged everyone in his opening post. Don’t need a vote in order to tag people. 

Hmm, this is true, and something I haven't really thought about before. I know that there is a valid reason to do poke votes...I just can't remember what it is.

Also, I forgot that Straw tagged everyone in the first post.  

16 minutes ago, Gears said:

Talking. In my admittedly inexperienced opinion, voting on someone for no purpose is meaningless. I am not opposed to a lynch, but it should be an informed, intentional lynch [as much as a lynch can be C1]

Voting on someone for no reason is meaningless, I'll agree. But a lot of the time, even if people can't explain why they're voting for someone exactly, there is still a reason for it, at a subconscious level. And by getting people to vote, even if they aren't quite sure why they're voting for someone (whether it's just gut, random chance, or because they just felt like it), we learn a lot about how players are unconsciously and consciously thinking about the game. Either that or I'm thinking way too hard about this.

16 minutes ago, Gears said:

Scenario 1: Person A has Transportation and Transports Person B's action onto Person C. Person C dies. This could be because Person B was the killer, or because Person C was slated to die anyways. Scenario 2: Person A has Adhesion and Adheres Person B's Action. There is no death. Someone else could have roleblocked the killer. There is no certainty in either scenario. There are also numerous other scenarios that could occur given these parameters. Transportation is only more valuable than the roleblock when one is certain that the only action the target is taking is a kill.

Even in this scenario, it's always better to assume that you are the direct reason for the lack of a kill, or I guess the choice of the kill. It would be way too much of a coincidence for someone to redirect a player's action and then the person they got redirected to dies. It's not 100% for sure damning evidence, but you can be pretty sure that you found the killer that way. I guess you would have to consider the fact that the redirected player might just be a village Dustbringer/Skybreaker, but you can wait to decide to see if that's the case after you confront the person you redirected and hear what they have to say for themselves.

10 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

That is the theory behind poke votes, yes. I happen to be of the opinion that poke votes aren’t in fact useful whatsoever, as briefly laid out by the questions to Striker in my previous post. If I decided to vote you before you posted, would that make you any more likely or unlikely to post? Would you feel pressure from a single vote that I’d probably take off as soon as you posted?

My point is that poke votes aren't meant to just be taken off as soon as the person gets on and says something. They should stay on the poked player for as long as it takes them to convince you to take it off. Or you can decide to just not take them off. Though, I will agree that voting based on discussion is always the superior way to vote, and at this point we have more than enough (I think) to start making reads and vote on players.

9 minutes ago, Ventyl said:

Considering my role, it would be good for the village for me to know someone’s role or have an idea of it.

EDIT: This doesn’t mean I want anyone to roleclaim in thread, but when we get PM’s I can offer my services to anyone I trust.

I just want to repeat what I have said before: be careful about claiming your role, whether it's in thread or in PMs. Revealing anything puts a target on your head.

3 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

This sort of seems like it could be a good way to get villagers to claim to elims.

I don't know if this was Ventyl's intent with his post, but it reads like something he'd say to me in person in an attempt to be super clever and witty. Which, is NAI, but that's just my thoughts on it. 

Anyway, I'm interested to see why Gears really thinks that people can't be so certain that when the roleblock/redirect someone and results in something that seems like they hit an elim, they should be cautious. Like, yes, you should always be cautious when dealing with that kind of thing. But the odds of the effects not being caused by your actions are really really slim. Seems like it could be a way to cover the elims in case that happens to them, like he's trying to sow paranoia in our minds and stuff. I really like all the role analysis he's been doing so far, but all of that is basically completely NAI as far as I can tell. I'm gonna go ahead and put a vote on Gears because I want to see what he has to say about this.