Are fabrials humane?

[Hen]

Just that. Is it morally correct to trap spren to further human goals?

With the increasing importance of spren on Roshar, I am curious to see how we all feel about this. Personally I don’t have an opinion yet, I see both sides of the argument. But I do think that eventually Radiant spren are going want their lesser cousins set free, so I think it’s a problem that will surface in-world eventually (although we might not see it happen in the books). 

it was touched on in this thread: 

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Hentient

[Karger]

I don't see it as any different from what the singers do and that is a natraul part of the ecosystem.  It causes no one any pain. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Karger

[+Invocation]

The higher spren, I'd argue it would be inhumane to keep them trapped. But the lesser spren don't need things in the same way dogs/cats do, being chunks of pure Investiture, so I'm not sure this question applies to them, honestly. They get to do what they do, they're not in pain, and they're not stuck trying to travel to find what they're attracted to. 

[Lunamor]

I agree with Invo. At one point Taravangian tells Dalinar that the half-shard fabrials use spren that once helped Radiants, strongly hinting that they have trapped sentient spren, so I'd argue that things like half-shards are not humane, but fabrials that have trapped things like flame spren are, as it is more similar to using a chull to pull a wagon than having a human slave.

[Pathfinder]

As I said in the link, I think it is humane because we have already seen sapient spren bonded to fabrials before, and spoken with them. They were fine, and in fact missed being able to operate. The oathgate spren. All the quotes are in that link, but I can post them again if necessary. Further we know radiants that used such fabrials. I have trouble believing that high spren would suddenly now have a problem with something their radiants did in the past that they had full knowledge of for centuries. Tranformation, Transportation, and Progression fabrials all existed back then during the radiants dominance, and were regularly used without issue to their spren. 

 

edit: for example. If radiant spren took issue with fabrials using radiant spren, then why do we see in Dalinar's vision a radiant in full glowing shardplate using a regrowth fabrial? Or why do we see Nale, who we know is a fully oathed skybreaker, use a regrowth fabrial without issue? Or that the oathgates, that we know have fully sapient spren bonded to it, were used extensively by radiants for centuries?

 

Why didn't their spren take issue then?

Edited July 16, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Hen]

That’s how I saw most people siding. I was just curious because of all the little hints in OB that suggest Nahel spren don’t like fabrials. For example, the same scene Lunamor mentioned, Dalinar says “capturing spren is no different then using chulls” or something along those lines, and the Stormfather rumbled in the back round.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Hentient

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, Hentient said:

That’s how I saw most people siding. I was just curious because of all the little hints in OB that suggest Nahel spren don’t like fabrials. For example, the same scene Lunamor mentioned, Dalinar says “capturing spren is no different then using chulls” or something along those lines, and the Stormfather rumbled in the back round.

I think that might have more to do with how they go about attaining them, than the process itself. For example, if you look at the map of the cognitive realm, there is a note by Nazh that says spren "fishing" is seen as illegal. In WoB, this is confirmed (if I recall correctly, I will need to pull it up) to be using something that attracts the spren un-naturally to grab it. So potentially manipulating their choice in the matter? Some of this slides into some RoW spoilers, but consider how Syl views dead shardblades versus Pattern. Then consider how Syl views bonding humans versus the Stormfather. So I do not think it is necessarily indicative of the entire population or the fabrial process. 

 

edit: found the WoB

 

Argent (paraphrased)

Nazh writes that "spren fishing" is illegal in Ravizadth. What exactly is spren fishing?

Isaac Stewart (paraphrased)

It is the act of forcefully attracting spren in Shadesmar for your own purposes. For example, you know how when Adolin is genuinely afraid there, his fear attracts fearspren naturally? That's okay. But if someone were to engineer situations that would attract certain kinds of spren because they wanted to make use of those spren - for study, or other reasons - that would be "fishing". If spren have formal ethics, this would be unethical.

Argent (paraphrased)

So this has a lot to do with consent? Drawing spren naturally is part of how spren work, but forcing them to come, that's a no-no?

Isaac Stewart (paraphrased)

Pretty much.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

 

Isaac Stewart (paraphrased)

He clarified that Nazh was caught spren fishing because he was trying to attract a spren to be his stooge and do some work for him. He got in trouble for it because he didn't know that was illegal.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018) Edited July 16, 2020 by Pathfinder

[PiedPiper]

I would argue that it isn't ethical, even if most fabrials -- except the half-shards, and those are especially bad -- only trap lesser spren.

My first argument is this: it's seen as inhumane to keep your pet in a small cage, or to make it do things it doesn't want to do. The authorities get involved when they're notified of animal abuse. It seems to me that there's a good parallel here between pets and smaller spren, even if Rosharans don't see it that way.

My second argument is the "slippery slope" point: when do they stop? For the sake of debate, let's say Rosharan scholars have come to the consensus that it's okay to trap lesser spren. This could provide an easy transition similar views about sapient spren. If they already do it with one kind, what's to stop them from expanding their research for the sake of science?

Yes, Roshar would develop technologically much more slowly if its governments banned spren fishing, but many, including myself, would argue that human development should not come at the detriment of other species.

Edited July 16, 2020 by PiedPeterPiper

[Gilphon]

Really where I'm at is that it'd want to see what the spren think of it before passing judgement. Really there's probably room for nuance; like lots of Rosharan fauna depend on sprenbonds to survive, and that's probably the same principle as fabrials. And although it's not clear what the spren get out of it, the Mandra certainly don't seem like they're being forced to do their part. And the oathgate spren don't seem to mind being an oathgate. 

But meanwhile we've seen that spren have a big problem with people using dead Shardblades- the most tolerate among them recognize the practical value of it, but still find the idea creepy and really wish that the humans would stop doing it. And the less tolerant just directly call it slavery. And, of course, spren fishing is illegal is some places. 

So it's not totally black and white; I'd want to know how the higher spren actually see it before making up my mind. At the very least, we don't see Syl or Pattern or the Stormfather having the same viscerally negative reaction to fabrials as they do to Shardblades, so they don't consider it to be as bad as that.

[Rorzikel]

I'd say this WoB is pretty relevant.

Quote

Slowswift

How do the spren in Shadesmar feel about fabrials? Are they mad that people are trapping spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say there's a wide variety of emotions, but the general response would not be favorable.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

 

[Spren of Kindness]

19 minutes ago, PiedPeterPiper said:

I would argue that it isn't ethical, even if most fabrials -- except the half-shards, and those are especially bad -- only trap lesser spren.

My first argument is this: it's seen as inhumane to keep your pet in a small cage, or to make it do things it doesn't want to do. The authorities get involved when they're notified of animal abuse. It seems to me that there's a good parallel here between pets and smaller spren, even if Rosharans don't see it that way.

My second argument is the "slippery slope" point: when do they stop? For the sake of debate, let's say Rosharan scholars have come to the consensus that it's okay to trap lesser spren. This could provide an easy transition similar views about sapient spren. If they already do it with one kind, what's to stop them from expanding their research for the sake of science?

Yes, Roshar would develop technologically much more slowly if its governments banned spren fishing, but many, including myself, would argue that human development should not come at the detriment of other species.

Thank you, I was trying to figure out how to say this, but couldn't verbalize it.

[Pathfinder]

Personally I keep coming back to the means of attainment. I liken it to harvesting naturally grown fruit, versus strip mining an area. One preserves the integrity of the environment, while the other strips it down till nothing is left.  

[Eternal Khol]

well, in book 4 we'll find out what they look like in the CR when trapped in a fabrial. this'll help us determine if its humane or not.

what do you guys think happens to said spren?

it'll should be almost entirely in the PR right? but it should still have a Cognitive Presence.

 

u/Eragon_the_Huntsman

What happens to a spren in the Cognitive Realm when it's in a fabrial?

Brandon Sanderson

I plan to answer this in book four. So RAFO, with a promise.

General Reddit 2019 (Sept. 2, 2019)

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Pathfinder]

A reading from RoW i think offers additional commentary on this subject but naturally it is spoilers. I could either write it here and spoiler tag it, or create an additional thread regarding this in the RoW forum and link it here. Which would be better?

[Chaos]

No, we would like all content from RoW chapters to only be in the subforum. I can move the topic there if you prefer.

EDIT: To be clear, that means spoiler tagging RoW content is not sufficient in the Stormlight board. It must only go in the RoW spoiler board.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Chaos
clarity

[Frustration]

@Chaos can I just say I find it really amusing that the incarnation of, well, Chaos feels the need for clarity.

[Hen]

36 minutes ago, Chaos said:

No, we would like all content from RoW chapters to only be in the subforum. I can move the topic there if you prefer.

Oh okay, if you could move it that would be great! I’m sorry about that. 

[Pathfinder]

32 minutes ago, Hentient said:

Oh okay, if you could move it that would be great! I’m sorry about that. 

Then I will save my response in a document and when the thread is moved, post it.

In the meantime, I do have a follow up question for @Chaos (thanks btw), I was planning to quote....something...... in my post when it is moved to the RoW thread. Can I quote it there? Or since it is from the newsletter, should I only reference it?

 

edit: please disregard my query about quoting. I saw your comments regarding it in the first post of the thread. Asked and answered lol. So when this thread is moved, I will post my response, and reference the newsletter, but not quote it.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Chaos]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Then I will save my response in a document and when the thread is moved, post it.

In the meantime, I do have a follow up question for @Chaos (thanks btw), I was planning to quote....something...... in my post when it is moved to the RoW thread. Can I quote it there? Or since it is from the newsletter, should I only reference it?

Quoting an excerpt is fine to me!

[Pathfinder]

3 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Quoting an excerpt is fine to me!

Thanks!

 

edit: just realized it is now in RoW, so here is my post:

 

In the Syl Interlude, she mentions hows she does not hate the shardplate as much as shardblades even though they are both "corpses" due to "attitude". That she senses "contentment". The reason I referenced this, is I feel it goes back to again I feel how the spren are gathered. If it is forcefully, then it is against their will, and so probably the fabrial would give off upset. But if they are gathered naturally, then the spren used in a fabrial could be fulfilling their purpose voluntarily, and thereby give off contentment. So the fabrial could still be made, and used, but do so ethically with the consent of the spren involved. That is my point/theory. I have quoted the  portion I am referring to:

 

 

"She rolled off the counter and zipped over to examine Cord’s Shardplate stacked neatly in the corner. The young Horneater woman was never without it. She was the first of her people in...well, a very, very long time to have a Shard.

 

It was pretty. Maybe Syl should have hated it, as she did Shardblades, but she didn’t. It was kind of a corpse—well, lots of corpses—but not as offensive. The difference, she supposed, was attitude. She could sense contentment, not pain, from the Plate."

Edited July 17, 2020 by Pathfinder

[IcaroRibeiro]

This is an interesting ethic debate 

I would say most of spren doesn't have sapience and consciousness. There is a high change of animals, just like there is a high change of animals. Even a vegan wouldn't agree that all animals feel the same way and has the rights for integrity, there is a clear speciesism (generally derivated from cultural aspects) in the way humans treat animals

For Spren I guess it's the same. "Higher" spren wouldn't be treated in the same way of lesser spren because of their awareness, their cognitive presence 

[Kuram]

They're probably humane, because they don't trap true spren.  It's akin to using chull to pull a wagon, for example.

That is, until we get to a point where some true spren are being bound against their wishes.  But don't forget that some spren are down for fabrial work.  Think of the oathgate spren, for example.  They seem real happy about working with humans, and they appeared to be genuinely sad they could not help Shallan due to their oath.

[Rorzikel]

I also think it’s a bit concerning how Khriss refers to fabrials in the Oathbringer Ars Arcanum:

Quote

ON THE CREATION OF FABRIALS Five groupings of fabrial have been discovered so far. The methods of their creation are carefully guarded by the artifabrian community, but they appear to be the work of dedicated scientists, as opposed to the more mystical Surgebindings once performed by the Knights Radiant. I am more and more convinced that the creation of these devices requires forced enslavement of transformative cognitive entities, known as “spren” to the local communities.

 

[+Invocation]

It would probably be very bad to cause a spren genocide by locking all of their members into fabrials, since I don't think spren can shape "raw" Investiture into spren types that aren't them (except maybe godspren). 

[Elsecaller_17.5]

Overall my gut says it's ok, but I think we must be missing something. I don't see anything wrong with common Fabrials, but Brandon said the general attitude in shadesmare is negative. I would think using a sapient spren would be a problem, but we see Radients using advanced fabrials and perfectly content oathgate spren.

Wherever the missing piece is I bet it has something to do with "fishing." Modern fabrial creation does it on a unethical way according to truespren.