Kelsier’s Body Theory

[Kesamijr]

Spoiler

So I’ve seen a bunch of posts about Kelsier’s body in BoM and if it’s a Kandra or his physical body somehow, and I was wondering if we have any evidence it’s actually his body beyond just the scars on the arms? Cuz as I was thinking about it Kelsier’s arm scars seem pretty integral to his self concept (like Kaladin’s slave brands) and so seem like they’re something that would appear on any body he inhabited as a cognitive shadow. Given that we also know that Kelsier is a very well controlled psychopath it seems plausible to me that it might just be someone else’s body (like maybe a feruchemists which would explain the new feruchemical abilities) that he’s just Hemalurgically (?) physical connection from! Thoughts? Is this plausible?

 

[Gears]

I agree that the scars are probably integral to his Identity at this point, but I don't know how the "cut a soul from its body" part would work. The body has an Identity as well. And even if he somehow managed to bodysnatch, would Feruchemical power be intrinsic to the body? If the Cognitive shadow's Identity overwrites the body's appearance, surely it would overwrite the body's capabilities. 

[Halyo_Alex]

3 hours ago, Gears said:

I agree that the scars are probably integral to his Identity at this point, but I don't know how the "cut a soul from its body" part would work. The body has an Identity as well. And even if he somehow managed to bodysnatch, would Feruchemical power be intrinsic to the body? If the Cognitive shadow's Identity overwrites the body's appearance, surely it would overwrite the body's capabilities. 

That depends. Cosmere healing (the magically-superhealing kind) is based on Cognitive Self-Perception filtering your Spiritual Ideal self. So yes, if Kelsier had access to F-Gold during TFE, he probably would regenerate the scar tissue instead of fresh skin.

In the case of OP's suggestion, Identity is part of the spiritweb, hence why F-Aluminum is a Spiritual Feruchemical metal. As is Hemalurgic Duralumin, which can steal Connection and/or Identity, so Kelsier probably could manage something wack like that. I mean he figured out Medallions, and he's one of the best Mistborn, so obviously he's very clever with the Metallic Arts.

[Elend Venture]

And of course, the scars would be very simple to replicate in a kandra body. But then again, I feel that it is more likely than he used a human body as above posts suggest, since the scars remain integral to Kelsier's very being regardless of the body in which he resides.

[+Bzhydack]

I think Kelsier indeed was brought back into Ferruchemist Body. We saw other Cognitive Shadows merged into bodies, but we didnt see CS merged with usage of Hemalurgy. Hemalurgy dont erase Body/Soul/Mind features, it also dont overrite them, like it is with Fused. Hemalurgy Adds new features, adds new part into the Soul. So if we spike dead body of Ferruchemist with spike with CS, we will have Body with features of this body merged with features of this Shadow. We even saw something similar, on smaller scale - when someone is using translating medalions, he is able to talk perfectly in maching lands language, but he stil has accent - because his body/mind knows, that he is not from there. Body has added new and old features (what is other evidence that Medalions are similar to Hemalurgy)

So, this is my crazy theory. What if Kelsier used The Lord Rulers Body? This will explain why he is known in the South as Ruler, as well as Ferruchemy. Kelsier also has Connection to TLR. I dont remember, what happend to TLR Body, but this can explain many things.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Hemalurgy dont erase Body/Soul/Mind features, it also dont overrite them, like it is with Fused. 

It does if you use aluminum.

[+Bzhydack]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

It does if you use aluminum.

Yeah, but aluminum is wierd. Normaly, it doesnt.

[+Oltux72]

7 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Yeah, but aluminum is wierd. Normaly, it doesnt.

The Koloss end up stupid.

[+Bzhydack]

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The Koloss end up stupid.

But this was more sideffect of too many additions. It should be understandable that some additions can have negative effect.

[Grytorm]

Yeah lots of possibilities of what the body could have originated as. My theory is that he started as a Mistwraith in a surprisingly ethical use of Hemalurgy.

The real tricky question is where did the spike come from/how was it made?

[Innovation]

 

14 minutes ago, Grytorm said:

The real tricky question is where did the spike come from/how was it made?

If I recall correctly, did he not ask Spook to look into the Inquisitor’s spikes? Using two of those on a Mistwraith would be ethical. 

[Grytorm]

1 hour ago, Innovation said:

 

If I recall correctly, did he not ask Spook to look into the Inquisitor’s spikes? Using two of those on a Mistwraith would be ethical. 

I was more just wondering on what they did with the Inquisitor spikes and the details of how Kelsier was attached. Did Spook find a way to stab a ghost or something?

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 7/21/2020 at 1:56 PM, Grytorm said:

I was more just wondering on what they did with the Inquisitor spikes and the details of how Kelsier was attached. Did Spook find a way to stab a ghost or something?

I always thought that was the easy part: Spook stabs Kell in the Cognitive Realm.

[Halyo_Alex]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I always thought that was the easy part: Spook stabs Kell in the Cognitive Realm.

Now the question is how does he get there?

[StanLemon]

7 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Now the question is how does he get there?

Most likely Harmony's Perpndicularity. Kel probably found it in the Cognitive and let Spook know where it was.

[+Bzhydack]

13 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Most likely Harmony's Perpndicularity. Kel probably found it in the Cognitive and let Spook know where it was.

Yeah, but...

We know that on Scadrial Godmetal condensate near the Perpendicularity. And we know what Godmetal of Harmony is - its ettmetal. And isnt known on the North, it apear only on South. So straight deduction - Harmony Perpendicularity is in the South.

Of course, its possibility that Harmony have two Perpendicularities, one in North and one in South. This will also explain how and why Kelsier apear in South - he enter into CR in one Perp in North, and exit in South.

[StanLemon]

23 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Yeah, but...

We know that on Scadrial Godmetal condensate near the Perpendicularity. And we know what Godmetal of Harmony is - its ettmetal. And isnt known on the North, it apear only on South. So straight deduction - Harmony Perpendicularity is in the South.

Of course, its possibility that Harmony have two Perpendicularities, one in North and one in South. This will also explain how and why Kelsier apear in South - he enter into CR in one Perp in North, and exit in South.

I also suspect he has two Perpendicularities. Primarily for the reason you listed about Ettmetal. It's fairly likely that there is one up north because of Hoid and Khriss both still being fairly active in the north because otherwise all the world hoppers in the Basin would always be trekking north to get there

[StanLemon]

Oh also, Kelsier might have used a Mistraith for his new body. It doesn't explain having hair and stuff but maybe with Feruchemical healing...

rxience (paraphrased)

Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that could happen.

rxience (paraphrased)

Did that happen in the past?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about?

rxience (paraphrased)

Kelsier of course!

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he?

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

Quote

I think Kelsier indeed was brought back into Ferruchemist Body. We saw other Cognitive Shadows merged into bodies, but we didnt see CS merged with usage of Hemalurgy. Hemalurgy dont erase Body/Soul/Mind features, it also dont overrite them, like it is with Fused. Hemalurgy Adds new features, adds new part into the Soul. So if we spike dead body of Ferruchemist with spike with CS, we will have Body with features of this body merged with features of this Shadow. We even saw something similar, on smaller scale - when someone is using translating medalions, he is able to talk perfectly in maching lands language, but he stil has accent - because his body/mind knows, that he is not from there. Body has added new and old features (what is other evidence that Medalions are similar to Hemalurgy)

Feruchemical or allomantic abilities aren't tied to the body, they're tied to the soul, so I doubt spiking yourself to a dead feruchemist would give you feruchemical abilities; it would likely have to be a living feruchemist. Kelsier clearly got feruchemy from somewhere though, so it's possible he did just that. This would probably have a lot of strange ramifications, since you have two souls stapled together.

However, I think there is a workaround.

Say you have a willing full feruchemist. They completely store their Identity using an aluminum mind. Then you use hemalurgy to staple yourself, a cognitive shadow, to this person (likely using a duralumin spike, since it steals Connection/Identity, but I digress). I think this would give Kelsier the parts of the soul with feruchemy with none of the idenity-mashing side effects.

But this is someone else's body, so why would he have scars? Easy solution: gold feruchemy. Since it works by making the body conform to the person's spiritual ideal (filtered through the cognitive), and since the blanked identity of the host body wouldn't get in the way, this means that as Kelsier uses gold, he will make himself look more and more like his original body. This would almost certainly give him the scars like the original post was talking about.

Now it would be difficult to find a willing person, particularly a willing full feruchemist. However, if one was ever born (which I don't think is too unlikely in the years directly after the Catacendre, before the genes got all crambled together with allomancy genes), I think Kelsier has a good shot at having them be willing considering there's a whole religion about him and he just proved to you he could survive even death.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

Kelsier could have easily regrown his own body if Spook made a medallion for F-gold and held it against one of Kelsier’s bones.

We saw in BoM that you can tap gold while you’re dead when Wax went on his walk with Harmony. Since Kelsier is stuck in the CR he presumably could come back from any injury other than the total annihilation of his body including the bone, so long as someone holds a goldmind against his corpse/remains.

Edited September 7, 2020 by SwordNimiForPresident

[LuckyJim]

I've actually been thinking about this topic recently, and I was thinking that Spook may have given Kelsier his body when he was about to die.

We already know that Spook was in favor of the idea of using sick and elderly people who were about to die anyway as sacrifices for hemalurgic resources, and I'd like to think that Spook isn't so much of a hypocrite that he'd object to putting himself to that process as well. In addition, the strong Connection shared by Spook and Kelsier might even facilitate the process of grafting Kelsier's cognitive shadow/identity into Spook's body. Although Spook would be almost 100 years old at the time, through the process of feruchemical atium and gold (which Kelsier could easily have access too, either through hemalurgy or unkeyed medallions) he could restore it to a better state.

[Aspiring Writer]

A small thing, his spike appears to be either steel or iron, as he has steel sight in one eye, meaning the spike was from an allomancer, so he didn't get his feruchemy abilities from that. Just thought that was a useful observation for you all.

[+Bzhydack]

10 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

I've actually been thinking about this topic recently, and I was thinking that Spook may have given Kelsier his body when he was about to die.

We already know that Spook was in favor of the idea of using sick and elderly people who were about to die anyway as sacrifices for hemalurgic resources, and I'd like to think that Spook isn't so much of a hypocrite that he'd object to putting himself to that process as well. In addition, the strong Connection shared by Spook and Kelsier might even facilitate the process of grafting Kelsier's cognitive shadow/identity into Spook's body. Although Spook would be almost 100 years old at the time, through the process of feruchemical atium and gold (which Kelsier could easily have access too, either through hemalurgy or unkeyed medallions) he could restore it to a better state.

First, Brandon confirms that this is not Spook's body. On phone I cannot quote WoB but its easy to find.

Second, Kelsier apear on South just few years after Catacendre, (we can see this in Memorycoin, its still the same generation od Southerners) - in this Time Spook ruled healthy in Elendell.

[The One Who Connects]

Just gonna drop in and play devil's advocate for a moment.

On 8/20/2020 at 9:00 AM, Bzhydack said:

We know that on Scadrial Godmetal condensate near the Perpendicularity. And we know what Godmetal of Harmony is - its ettmetal. And isn't known on the North, it appears only on South. So straight deduction - Harmony Perpendicularity is in the South.

We know the Pits and the Well are no more, but we don't know if that was an instantaneous process do we? Spook could have used one of those to "spike a ghost" if need be, and then Kelsier exits the Ettmetal pool at a later date. Though you guys do make a good point about Hoid and Khriss being in the North.

On 10/3/2020 at 2:19 AM, Aspiring Writer said:

his spike appears to be either steel or iron, as he has steel sight in one eye, meaning the spike was from an allomancer, so he didn't get his feruchemy abilities from that.

Do we know for certain that Steelsight is tied to an A-Steel/A-Iron spike, or if it's simply a consequence of having a spiked eye? You're definitely correct if it's the former, but his eye-spike could be any make and model if it's the latter. More likely to be Steel/Iron based on prior knowledge, but maybe not impossible to be something else.

[Aspiring Writer]

17 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Just gonna drop in and play devil's advocate for a moment.

We know the Pits and the Well are no more, but we don't know if that was an instantaneous process do we? Spook could have used one of those to "spike a ghost" if need be, and then Kelsier exits the Ettmetal pool at a later date. Though you guys do make a good point about Hoid and Khriss being in the North.

Do we know for certain that Steelsight is tied to an A-Steel/A-Iron spike, or if it's simply a consequence of having a spiked eye? You're definitely correct if it's the former, but his eye-spike could be any make and model if it's the latter. More likely to be Steel/Iron based on prior knowledge, but maybe not impossible to be something else.

It's not confirmed, though I would think that would be the case, as steel inquisitors had steel spikes for eyes, which I don't think is an accident, but perhaps because he's a Mistborn with steel sight, it may not be needed for him and the spike is specifically to attach his soul to his body, as the powers are soul-based. 

Edit: Yes! 200 posts and I haven't even been here a month!

Edited October 11, 2020 by Aspiring Writer