Wondering about the order of things.

[Anthony683]

Did the human refugees who came to Roshar bond with Rosharan spren prior to the first desolation?

 

[Darkfinder]

The first desolation was before spren bonds because the spren bond is emulating the heralds honorblades and the heralds were formed after the first desolation.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Darkfinder

[Honorless]

No, not the First Desolation. The first appearance of Surgebinders is mentioned in-text to have come after the Heralds, who made them organize themselves into the Knights Radiant.

[+Oltux72]

10 minutes ago, Honorless said:

No, not the First Desolation. The first appearance of Surgebinders is mentioned in-text to have come after the Heralds, who made them organize themselves into the Knights Radiant.

But

1. the Eila Stele
2. the destruction of Ashyn

The stele mentions the power of Surges and Spren. Now, its authors may have been mistaken about the source of the Surges, but how can they not have been Surgebinders?

[Honorless]

25 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But

1. the Eila Stele
2. the destruction of Ashyn

The stele mentions the power of Surges and Spren. Now, its authors may have been mistaken about the source of the Surges, but how can they not have been Surgebinders?

 

1 hour ago, Anthony683 said:

Did the human refugees who came to Roshar bond with Rosharan spren prior to the first desolation?

 

"with Rosharan spren"

I think they were asking specifically whether the Nahel Bond existed before the Desolations.

Hmm... but yeah, the Ashynites did have access to the Surges somehow, but they might not have been exactly the same.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Honorless

[Anthony683]

7 hours ago, Honorless said:

 

"with Rosharan spren"

I think they were asking specifically whether the Nahel Bond existed before the Desolations.

Hmm... but yeah, the Ashynites did have access to the Surges somehow, but they might not have been exactly the same.

I was asking specifically about Nahel bonds. I was wondering if bonding with the spren could have been the spark that set everything into motion. I remember the herald mimicry, but I was aware of the surges being used too. So I wondered if there were bonds, but not the radiant bonds which mimicked the heralds. 

[RShara]

3 minutes ago, Anthony683 said:

I was asking specifically about Nahel bonds. I was wondering if bonding with the spren could have been the spark that set everything into motion. I remember the herald mimicry, but I was aware of the surges being used too. So I wondered if there were bonds, but not the radiant bonds which mimicked the heralds. 

They had some form of magic, which the ancient singers called "surges" but were probably not accessed the same way that Radiants accessed them.

[Anthony683]

31 minutes ago, RShara said:

They had some form of magic, which the ancient singers called "surges" but were probably not accessed the same way that Radiants accessed them.

Probably not? I was asking because if the spren decided to bond with the humans, then the parshendi saw this as a betrayal by the spren and their gods, opening them up to odiums influence, then finding all this out would be a good excuse for the recreance. 
Thanks to the people answering my questions by the way. 

[RShara]

11 minutes ago, Anthony683 said:

Probably not? I was asking because if the spren decided to bond with the humans, then the parshendi saw this as a betrayal by the spren and their gods, opening them up to odiums influence, then finding all this out would be a good excuse for the recreance. 
Thanks to the people answering my questions by the way. 

Why probably not? We know that the Nahel bond, and surgebinding as we know it, post-date the Heralds, and thus, must post-date the first Desolation(s). So the fact that the Elia references "surges" means that they had to have been using a different form of magic.

 

[Anthony683]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

Why probably not? We know that the Nahel bond, and surgebinding as we know it, post-date the Heralds, and thus, must post-date the first Desolation(s). So the fact that the Elia references "surges" means that they had to have been using a different form of magic.

 

Ye, when you said probably not, I thought you were saying there’s a chance that a non Radiant bond could have occurred prior to the first desolation. I was just trying to make sure my line of thinking wasn’t flawed. The recreance is weird, and the spren being the catalyst for everything is where my mind is right now.

[RShara]

6 minutes ago, Anthony683 said:

Ye, when you said probably not, I thought you were saying there’s a chance that a non Radiant bond could have occurred prior to the first desolation. I was just trying to make sure my line of thinking wasn’t flawed. The recreance is weird, and the spren being the catalyst for everything is where my mind is right now.

Oh! Sorry, I misunderstood! I generally don't like to make concrete statements unless we know things for 100% sure. So it's most likely not surgebinding as we know it, but I've been wrong before, and Brandon might have something up his sleeve

[Brgst13]

Radiants as such did not exist until Ishar formed the Orders.  The Nahel bond was created by Ishar as a way to put checks and balances on the power of the Surges.  We know that Ishar had the power of a Bondsmith prior to becoming a Herald; this is how he formed the Oathpact.  He even had these powers prior to fleeing Ashyn, so clearly at the time Surges were accessed in a way that did not require spren.  Context strongly implies that the founding of the Knights Radiant occurred some time after the First Desolation.

[Honorless]

44 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

Radiants as such did not exist until Ishar formed the Orders.  The Nahel bond was created by Ishar as a way to put checks and balances on the power of the Surges.  We know that Ishar had the power of a Bondsmith prior to becoming a Herald; this is how he formed the Oathpact.  He even had these powers prior to fleeing Ashyn, so clearly at the time Surges were accessed in a way that did not require spren.  Context strongly implies that the founding of the Knights Radiant occurred some time after the First Desolation.

I'm not so sure that the text is so clear on that. I think the spren themselves discovered the the ability to bond with and grant Surges to mankind, and Ishar's imposed limitations could have been the Oaths, but there's this WoB:

Quote

Blightsong

Were the ideals of the Knights Radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally?

Brandon Sanderson

*apprehension*. This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example two Knights Radiant in the same Order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a Windrunner will speak the oaths. It's a slightly different take on the same concept. Some are moreso, like Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths, so.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

And it fits, because Surgebinding comes from Honor and Cultivation, oaths & growth, and that makes sense.

I think Ishar just turned the Surgebinders into the Knights Radiant, as in the social structure, as Jasnah termed them. He might have done more, as Syl & The Stormfather's words regarding him make clear, but we're not currently capable of distinguishing his feats from the myths.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Honorless

[Brgst13]

My sources:

Before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods. He was the founder of the Oathpact. No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls. Your Surges are the greatest of all, though they will be impotent if you seek to wield them for mere battle.

-Oathbringer, chapter 64

But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

-Words of Radiance Chapter 42 epigraph

They also, when they had settled their rulings in the nature of each bond's placement, called the name of it the Nahel bond, with regard to its effect upon the souls of those caught in its grip; in this description, each was related to the bonds that drive Roshar itself, ten Surges, named in turn and two for each order; in this light, it can be seen that each order would by necessity share one Surge with each of its neighbors."

-Words of Radiance Chapter 35 epigraph

 

"But Jezerezeh was a Windrunner.”
"He was before Windrunners. He was Jezrien, a man whose powers bore no name. They were simply him. The Windrunners were named only after Ishar founded the Orders."

OK, reviewing these, I can see it was not quite as clear-cut as I originally thought, but it is still clear that the Nahel bond was formed sometime after the First Desolation.

 

[+Krox]

We do know Hoid does some Lightweaving without having bonded a Rosharan spren - so the "surges" are available without that specific Nahel bond! But then again, Hoid is weird and might be the only one with it..

[Honorless]

8 hours ago, Krox said:

We do know Hoid does some Lightweaving without having bonded a Rosharan spren - so the "surges" are available without that specific Nahel bond! But then again, Hoid is weird and might be the only one with it..

That's Yolish Lightweaving, a different magic system which is quite possibly based on the same principles as Rosharan Lightweaving¹. It's from before the Shattering... and broken somehow since then².

1:

Quote

Questioner

So Hoid, was he considered a Lightweaver pre-Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that would be an appropriate term. There are lots of different terms that would also be appropriate.

Questioner

But was it basically the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, no Stormlight. No spren. So, not a Knight Radiant. But, similar magic. But you've also seen Elantris magic do this. So there are-- there are certain things that-- I'll just stop there.

Orem signing (Dec. 21, 2017)

The Elantris magic he mentions is Aon Shao

2: 

Quote

Stormlightning

Where you *inaudible* Hoid as a Lightweaver in Era 2?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid was a Lightweaver in Dragonsteel.

Stormlightning

I mean a spren Lightweaver. Unless the timeline's still, really--

Brandon Sanderson

Meaning was I planning for him to become a Lightweaver?

Stormlightning

Before Era 2 since we thought Era 2 was going to be Era 3.

Brandon Sanderson

 Hoid has never quite stopped being a Lightweaver. He is very happy to be fully empowered with things.

Stormlightning

Does that mean he was not fully a Lightweaver?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out someday. His magic was not fully functional, but he was Lightweaving in Way of Kings

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

[+Krox]

3 hours ago, Honorless said:

That's Yolish Lightweaving, a different magic system which is quite possibly based on the same principles as Rosharan Lightweaving¹. It's from before the Shattering... and broken somehow since then².

 

Yes, but with this sort of proves that you can have sort of the same magic effects with same name but different origins. The Eila Stele might refer to the use of any powers as surges (maybe also Awakening or Allomancy if it had appeared for them), but I can't find if the surges/word surge pre-dates human arrival or not.