Cosmere Relative Physical Strength

[Hoidolasium]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

And besides how would they use a weapon multiple times their weight? That would just throw them around to no matter their strength.

This is a valid point but they did do it, I imagine it's one of those moments where Brandon sacrifices a little bit of consistency for a better scene.

[Gisaku75]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

At the top your calling Vin male.

Lifting a shardbarers hammer is something that people in Shardplate do with one hand, and easily.

*Begins muttering*

And while yes in order to properly weild a sword you have to have some easiness of use two hands make a big difference.

And besides how would they use a weapon multiple times their weight? That would just throw them around to no matter their strength.

I'm sorry I'm Italian and I use google translate.

To effectively use a two-handed weapon you must be able to easily lift it with one hand otherwise it would not be effective, the second hand is used to better balance and reduce fatigue.

Search on You Tube Demolition Ranch Sword or Gatsu, Berserk sword. Those swords all weigh 50 kg or less and are impossible to use for very strong men. Vin weighs 50 kg and can easily use them in books, thanks to Super strength, speed and agility. Then keep in mind that the gravity on Roshar is less than that of Scadrial and therefore things weigh less.

[Dunkum]

1 minute ago, Gisaku75 said:

I'm sorry I'm Italian and I use google translate.

To effectively use a two-handed weapon you must be able to easily lift it with one hand otherwise it would not be effective, the second hand is used to better balance and reduce fatigue.

Search on You Tube Demolition Ranch Sword or Gatsu, Berserk sword. Those swords all weigh 50 kg or less and are impossible to use for very strong men. Vin weighs 50 kg and can easily use them in books, thanks to Super strength, speed and agility. Then keep in mind that the gravity on Roshar is less than that of Scadrial and therefore things weigh less.

been a while since my last mistborn reread, but were they consistently using the swords as primary weapons, or were they picking them up, getting in a few hits, then leaving them behind?  I think it was closer to the latter - hitting a koloss with the sword then dropping it and steelpushing off it to the next target - but I could be misremembering.  But if i'm right, then that is a completely different sort of fighting style, and one that doesn't rely on using the sword particularly efficiently.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

I'm sorry I'm Italian and I use google translate.

Oh, Google messing you up? At least it didn't try to make you the president (anyone who gets that joke is a legend.)

 

5 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

 Then keep in mind that the gravity on Roshar is less than that of Scadrial and therefore things weigh less.

That is an excellent point.

[Gisaku75]

17 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

been a while since my last mistborn reread, but were they consistently using the swords as primary weapons, or were they picking them up, getting in a few hits, then leaving them behind?  I think it was closer to the latter - hitting a koloss with the sword then dropping it and steelpushing off it to the next target - but I could be misremembering.  But if i'm right, then that is a completely different sort of fighting style, and one that doesn't rely on using the sword particularly efficiently.

She uses iron and steel to keep moving, but he manages to maneuver the sword fast enough to amputate the limbs of the Koloss, One is cut almost in two. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by Gisaku75

[NameIess]

Vin and Elend do wield Kolloss swords, but Dalinar once accidentally bent the steel handle of his shardhammer. It's consistently shown that people in shardplate have trouble controlling their own strength, while pewterarms do not remark on this. To a degree this could be because Pewter increases dexterity, but you still don't see pewterarms flaring pewter and then snapping a Kolloss sword in two, or ripping someone in half. Also, when pewterarms fight, they fight mostly like a normal soldier or fighter, just better in every way, faster and stronger than everyone else. When someone in shardplate fights, they send enemies flying, bashing in skulls and swinging giant steel hammers like they weigh as much as a toothpick.

[Hoidolasium]

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

It's consistently shown that people in shardplate have trouble controlling their own strength, while pewterarms do not remark on this. To a degree this could be because Pewter increases dexterity, but you still don't see pewterarms flaring pewter and then snapping a Kolloss sword in two, or ripping someone in half

Shardbearers are going to be a lot less in control of their strength than Pewterarms, since they are getting a fair amount of sensory deprivation and size and weight increase. We never really see Shardbearers ripping people in half either, in fact, they both seem to do similar amounts of damage in a punch without leverage. (the Radiant gets a big strength boost if they have solid footing)

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Also, when pewterarms fight, they fight mostly like a normal soldier or fighter, just better in every way, faster and stronger than everyone else. When someone in shardplate fights, they send enemies flying, bashing in skulls and swinging giant steel hammers like they weigh as much as a toothpick.

It would be boring if they fought the same! Mistborn abilities tend towards improving their ability to assasinate, while Shardplate and Blade are used in direct confrontations against large groups of people. A Shardbearer is of course going to charge right in, since their abilities let them take out massive groups of people at no risk. A Mistborn needs to be faster and tactical, since we know Pewter is relatively limited in how much damage you can resist. Having a Shardblade encourages Sharbearers to fight in that style, and people with only armor to replicate it. Pewterarms can't take as many hits, so a normal one couldn't play the same role as a Shardbearer. They wield normal weapons because they have no need for massive hammers, which would only make them a target. 

Also it's very nitpicky of me to point this out but it's Koloss is only spelled with one l.

[Gisaku75]

17 hours ago, Nameless said:

Vin and Elend do wield Kolloss swords, but Dalinar once accidentally bent the steel handle of his shardhammer. It's consistently shown that people in shardplate have trouble controlling their own strength, while pewterarms do not remark on this. To a degree this could be because Pewter increases dexterity, but you still don't see pewterarms flaring pewter and then snapping a Kolloss sword in two, or ripping someone in half. Also, when pewterarms fight, they fight mostly like a normal soldier or fighter, just better in every way, faster and stronger than everyone else. When someone in shardplate fights, they send enemies flying, bashing in skulls and swinging giant steel hammers like they weigh as much as a toothpick.

Dalinar bends the handle of his Shardhammer because he used it to break stones for hours, not with a simple accidental grasp.
And in the books the fight between a pewterman and soldiers or Koloss has never been described so we have no comparison. But from the descriptions of the books, and from the pictures, a Koloss sword and a shardhammer have the same dimensions. So the force required to use them effectively in combat must be equivalent.

[Wandering Investor]

I would also point out not just Rock using a shardbow, but Dalinar also lifted a very large rock at the cathedral he was repairing. 

I think Brandon's comment about stormlight not "normally" increasing strength was in reference to general stormlight channeling. It would seem at least one of, if not multiple surges, are capable of enhancing strength. That, or something else is at work in those scenes. 

[NameIess]

4 hours ago, Gisaku75 said:

Dalinar bends the handle of his Shardhammer because he used it to break stones for hours, not with a simple accidental grasp.

I was talking about his first battle with Shardplate, in the rift.

18 hours ago, Hoidolasium said:

Shardbearers are going to be a lot less in control of their strength than Pewterarms, since they are getting a fair amount of sensory deprivation and size and weight increase. We never really see Shardbearers ripping people in half either, in fact, they both seem to do similar amounts of damage in a punch without leverage. (the Radiant gets a big strength boost if they have solid footing)

Yes, Shardbearers are going to be less in control of their strength, but we still never see a pewterarm or mistborn flare pewter and crush someones ribs, then say "I didn't think I hit him that hard" like Moash did to Kaladin. You don't see pewterarms breaking backs with a kick, or catching a Chasmfiends claw.

18 hours ago, Hoidolasium said:

It would be boring if they fought the same! Mistborn abilities tend towards improving their ability to assasinate, while Shardplate and Blade are used in direct confrontations against large groups of people. A Shardbearer is of course going to charge right in, since their abilities let them take out massive groups of people at no risk. A Mistborn needs to be faster and tactical, since we know Pewter is relatively limited in how much damage you can resist. Having a Shardblade encourages Sharbearers to fight in that style, and people with only armor to replicate it. Pewterarms can't take as many hits, so a normal one couldn't play the same role as a Shardbearer. They wield normal weapons because they have no need for massive hammers, which would only make them a target. 

Yes, the lack of invulnerability does play some part in their fighting style, but lets give an example of a pewterarm: Tarson. Tarson is both Koloss-blooded and a pewter savant, so you would expect him to be far stronger than a normal pewterarm. What do we see when he fights? He gets into a fistfight with Wayne, and Wayne doesn't have his head ripped off or bashed open, he doesn't have any of his bones shattered in a single punch, in short, Tarson fights like a person who is slightly enhanced in strength, maybe two or three times as strong, just like the WoB's say he should.

[+Bzhydack]

13 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

I would also point out not just Rock using a shardbow, but Dalinar also lifted a very large rock at the cathedral he was repairing. 

I think Brandon's comment about stormlight not "normally" increasing strength was in reference to general stormlight channeling. It would seem at least one of, if not multiple surges, are capable of enhancing strength. That, or something else is at work in those scenes. 

It is Theory about Rock that he will become Stoneward. This can be evidence supporting this theory - maybe this is one way that Surge of Tension works on most basic level - can make bones, muscles and tendons of user much harder to break so they can be push much above their normal limits.

[i’m in the details]

On 7/23/2020 at 9:09 AM, Nameless said:

I was talking about his first battle with Shardplate, in the rift.

Yes, Shardbearers are going to be less in control of their strength, but we still never see a pewterarm or mistborn flare pewter and crush someones ribs, then say "I didn't think I hit him that hard" like Moash did to Kaladin. You don't see pewterarms breaking backs with a kick, or catching a Chasmfiends claw.

Yes, the lack of invulnerability does play some part in their fighting style, but lets give an example of a pewterarm: Tarson. Tarson is both Koloss-blooded and a pewter savant, so you would expect him to be far stronger than a normal pewterarm. What do we see when he fights? He gets into a fistfight with Wayne, and Wayne doesn't have his head ripped off or bashed open, he doesn't have any of his bones shattered in a single punch, in short, Tarson fights like a person who is slightly enhanced in strength, maybe two or three times as strong, just like the WoB's say he should.

Not to resurrect this thread, but it should be noted that Vin is shown on multiple occasions, unless I’m completely misremembering, to shatter bones with strikes. Tarson, while koloss blooded, is using a distilled form of A-pewter. And we don’t have a canonical scale for how much being koloss blooded increases strength.