theory Ba-Ado-Mishram was using a Dawnshard?

[KandraAllomancer]

We now know that Bondsmiths existed on Ashyn before the Nahel Bond was discovered and they were able to bind Surges somehow (Surge fabrials, probably) and use Connection to achieve spectacular results. Comparing this description with what the Dawnshards were supposed to do, it seems quite likely that they were simply using them. If so, is it possible that Ba-Ado-Mishram was able to get one somehow and use it to cause the False Desolation? Each Unmade can be mapped (with some fuzziness, of course) to a KR order, with the exception of Bondsmiths. BAM's abilities during the False Desolation, however, seem like a supercharged, Roshar-wide, version of what Bondsmiths can do (providing Connection and Investiture). It was also the first time she showed these powers: the KR weren't sure how she did it ("Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people") and we know that historically they feared Sja-Anat more. I think it is in the realm of possibility that her original powers were completely unrelated to this, but, against all odds, she was able to obtain a Dawnshard. Maybe it was stolen from Aimia? In such case, the Scouring might have been an attempt to repeat the False Desolation by Dai-Gonarthis

Edited July 10, 2020 by KandraAllomancer

[Karger]

Makes a degree of sense.  It is also possible that a strike or research team discovered or took a dawnshard and that lead to the transformation of the singers.

[dgreene196]

Certainly, someone has continued to learn new uses for Investiture on Roshar.  At least one of the Fused was surprised Odium was able to use Nergaoul to bond Amaram's army en masse (or was it some other spren that joined the soldiers?  I've interpreted it both ways on various readings).  And Jezrien's death/entrapment is another example.  The 3rd example I can think of for team Odium is Glys' corruption/Enlightenment.

For the forces of good, whatever happened to Dalinar when he leveled up on Thaylen Field - that's clearly new and shocked even Odium.  It's very exciting that we're going to get more revelations very soon.

[Wandering Investor]

On 7/11/2020 at 1:10 PM, dgreene196 said:

 At least one of the Fused was surprised Odium was able to use Nergaoul to bond Amaram's army en masse (or was it some other spren that joined the soldiers?  I've interpreted it both ways on various readings)

I think the surprise was that he could bond void spren to humans, it was just achieved by using Nergaoul. 

[KandraAllomancer]

1 hour ago, Wandering Investor said:

I think the surprise was that he could bond void spren to humans, it was just achieved by using Nergaoul. 

Exactly. It was also only a surprise to the Fused, as the ability of humans to bond the Voidspren is implied by the Voidbinding chart

On 11.07.2020 at 8:10 PM, dgreene196 said:

Certainly, someone has continued to learn new uses for Investiture on Roshar.  At least one of the Fused was surprised Odium was able to use Nergaoul to bond Amaram's army en masse (or was it some other spren that joined the soldiers?  I've interpreted it both ways on various readings).  And Jezrien's death/entrapment is another example.  The 3rd example I can think of for team Odium is Glys' corruption/Enlightenment.

The Everstorm and killing Jezrien are new, but I don't think it's because Odium learnt something novel - he's quite clever, has futuresight and a lot of free time on Braize. If that was about knowledge, he would have figured it out may Desolations ago. I think the weakening of the Oathpact is to be blamed here.

Corrupting the True Spren by Sja-anat might have some historical precedent - there was something weird with Truthwatchers during the False Desolation.

On 11.07.2020 at 8:10 PM, dgreene196 said:

For the forces of good, whatever happened to Dalinar when he leveled up on Thaylen Field - that's clearly new and shocked even Odium.  It's very exciting that we're going to get more revelations very soon.

This is genuinely new, I agree, but it seems to be because of (A) specific circumstances (Dalinar is the first Bondsmith since Honor's death) and (B) something or someone is talking to Dalinar and guiding him. And more importantly - what Dalinar is extremely powerful (borderline Ascension, per Odium's word) and still he can affect one battlefield only. Connecting to all Singers on the whole continent is, on the other hand, Oathpact-level magic. Personally, I find it difficult to believe that something lower than a Dawnshard or a Shard could facilitate this

[+Q10fanatic]

On 7/10/2020 at 2:29 PM, KandraAllomancer said:

Each Unmade can be mapped (with some fuzziness, of course) to a KR order, with the exception of Bondsmiths.

I thought that the Fuzed generally map to the KR orders. How do you line the Unmade up with them?

[KandraAllomancer]

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

I thought that the Fuzed generally map to the KR orders. How do you line the Unmade up with them?

We have a confirmation for the Unmade:

Quote

XS-Terrain

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

As for the Fused, each of the nine orders get one Surge, so they would probably match two KR Orders

 

[+Q10fanatic]

Sorry, I thought you were saying you had figured out which Unmade corresponds to which Radiant order.

[KandraAllomancer]

2 hours ago, Q10fanatic said:

Sorry, I thought you were saying you had figured out which Unmade corresponds to which Radiant order.

I cannot be sure, but I have a theory

[+Oltux72]

Then why did she stop using it?

[Quantus]

On 7/10/2020 at 3:29 PM, KandraAllomancer said:

We now know that Bondsmiths existed on Ashyn before the Nahel Bond was discovered and they were able to bind Surges somehow (Surge fabrials, probably) and use Connection to achieve spectacular results. Comparing this description with what the Dawnshards were supposed to do, it seems quite likely that they were simply using them. If so, is it possible that Ba-Ado-Mishram was able to get one somehow and use it to cause the False Desolation? Each Unmade can be mapped (with some fuzziness, of course) to a KR order, with the exception of Bondsmiths. BAM's abilities during the False Desolation, however, seem like a supercharged, Roshar-wide, version of what Bondsmiths can do (providing Connection and Investiture). It was also the first time she showed these powers: the KR weren't sure how she did it ("Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people") and we know that historically they feared Sja-Anat more. I think it is in the realm of possibility that her original powers were completely unrelated to this, but, against all odds, she was able to obtain a Dawnshard. Maybe it was stolen from Aimia? In such case, the Scouring might have been an attempt to repeat the False Desolation by Dai-Gonarthis

Sorry, but where did we learn this? I though I was up to date on the preview chapters but missed this somehow.

[KandraAllomancer]

On 6.08.2020 at 9:46 PM, Quantus said:

Sorry, but where did we learn this? I though I was up to date on the preview chapters but missed this somehow.

Syl's interlude, from the previous newsletter email (the current one has the prologue for Dawnshard)

Syl says this to Dalinar:

Quote

Your abilities are what made the original Oathpact,” she said. “And they existed—and were named—long before the Knights Radiant were founded. A Bondsmith connected the Heralds to Braize, made them immortal, and locked our enemies away. A Bondsmith bound other Surges and brought humans to Roshar, fleeing their dying world. A Bondsmith created—or at least discovered—the Nahel bond: the ability of spren and humans to join together into something better. You Connect things, Dalinar. Realms. Ideas. People.

 

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

On 8/8/2020 at 7:55 AM, KandraAllomancer said:

Syl's interlude, from the previous newsletter email (the current one has the prologue for Dawnshard)

Syl says this to Dalinar:

 

That actually doesn't say they existed on Ashyn of which we know the magic system was based on disease and sickness the Bondsmith just doesn't fit thematically there I think the Stormfather/Nightwatcher/Sibling just were the first spren to form bonds (likely because Honor told them how) and if they were on Ashyn that would mean they were once associated with Odium which doesn't make much sense

Edited October 31, 2020 by Somebody from Sel

[KandraAllomancer]

12 hours ago, Somebody from Sel said:

That actually doesn't say they existed on Ashyn of which we know the magic system was based on disease and sickness the Bondsmith just doesn't fit thematically there I think the Stormfather/Nightwatcher/Sibling just were the first spren to form bonds (likely because Honor told them how) and if they were on Ashyn that would mean they were once associated with Odium which doesn't make much sense

Let's look at all the evidence:

Even modern Ashynite disease-based magic uses spren, actually:

Quote

Vanahian

Brandon has said that the Ashynite Disease-Based Magic was related with the Old Magic. Did he mean it in a direct way? Like this magic from Ashyn was a branch or a variety of the Old Magic system?

Brandon Sanderson

I do have to RAFO this, for the most part. Suffice it to say that the disease magic is related to a symbiotic bond between spren-like investiture and microorganisms.

General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 24, 2020)

Before the cataclysm, the magic of Ashyn was based on Surges:

Quote

Shardbound

Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

Ashyn is 10-centric, not 9-centric:

Quote

 

Herald (paraphrased)

Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system.

Herald (paraphrased)

The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Big RAFO.

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

The original Ashynite magic cannot be of Odium. Also, there were fabrials (at least Oathgates) on Ashyn:

Quote

Questioner

Did humans come to Roshar through Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson

It is technology or magic closer to how the Oathgates work. But it was like that. It's not canon but right now that's what I have. It's not canon because there are certain things I have to work out before that can work...

By the way I'll just say to the tape recording that I haven't canonized, like for instance if they traveled to Shadesmar to get to Shinovar from Ashyn. Right now I have that not being via Shadesmar, but the mechanics of that might not work out, and I might have to default to Shadesmar. So there's certain things, you'll see, where I say, "This isn't the canon answer, it's where I have things right now."

Overlord Jebus

So Urithiru might end up being a spaceship after all.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not that. Right now I have them using something closer to Oathgating, but it opens up a huge can of worms, when I'm not requiring direct-- When I'm sending through Spiritual Realm it opens up cans of worms, and I have to just make sure the mechanics on that are tight before I do it.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

Surge fabrials (or at least Soulcasters) on Roshar could only have been created in Aimia, and there was a Dawnshard there:

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Is there a Dawnshard in Aimia?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. Well, there definitely has been a Dawnshard in Aimia in the past, that is why it has been protected so well, obviously. Maybe it is still there and maybe not, that is an open question for now.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 16, 2019)

If Bondsmiths brought people to Roshar and bound Surges before the Nahel bond, as Syl indicates, then the most reasonable solution is that they were involved in fabrial creation somehow. Also, the description of Dawnshard powers from the The Poem of Ista seems to match Bondsmith powers quite well.

The connection between Bondsmith and Dawnshards is never stated explicitly, but it would be one storm of coincidence if they weren't related somehow

[Honorless]

It's a very plausible theory, @KandraAllomancer.

Spoiler

Maybe she was using the Unity Dawnshard

, the Dawnshard that could "Bind all things mortal and Voidish" and that is the Dawnshard not like the rest because it was Corrupted.

On 8/1/2020 at 1:16 PM, Oltux72 said:

Then why did she stop using it?

Did she stop using it? Maybe she just go imprisoned with it or she could only use it once. We know too little about Dawnshards.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Honorless

[KandraAllomancer]

@Honorless To be honest, after reading Dawnshard and RoW I have more doubts than I had before

On 8.12.2020 at 9:29 AM, Honorless said:

, the Dawnshard that could "Bind all things mortal and Voidish" and that is the Dawnshard not like the rest because it was Corrupted.

That would be really awesome really, but my one problem would be that

Spoiler

Dawnshard combined with a huge splinter seems so overpowered that I cannot imagine BAM being imprisoned by a single Bondsmith

I I were writing this today, I would probably use Ishar's Honorblade instead of a Dawnshard