Jump to content

Willshapers and Spiritual Cohesion


Recommended Posts

We've learnt  from Syl's Interlude that Bondsmiths can strengthen bonds between humans and spren, which Dalinar doesn't seem to know how to do yet. Could it be the Spiritual version of the Surge of Tension? We've mostly seen Dalinar using pure Adhesion or the mix of Bondsmith Surges (e.g. repairing objects) so far and strengthening a bond seems to kind of fit the description of "making things more rigid, less flexible" (a definition of Tension from this WoB).

Assuming that this is the case, what about the Surge of Cohesion, which is pretty much the opposite of Tension (at least in the physical sense):

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

The Willshapers have to have Cohesion, because Cohesion is the "grab something solid and melt it and push it in any direction you want..." it's the weak atomic force.

It's, you can take this and push your hand into it and leave a hand print, or things like that, and that's a Willshaper thing, not a Bondsmith thing.

Footnote: In the context of looking at the Radiant chart
Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014)

We know that Willshapers are all about seeking freedom, so it seems entirely possible that they can use Spiritual Cohesion to weaken bonds. That leads to two interesting implications:

A. Syl is bound to remain within some distance of Kaladin, but what about the Reachers? Is it possible for Willshapers to weaken their bond somehow so that their spren can explore their surroundings more (which we know they love to do). The fact that Willshapers also have the Surge of Transportation (which seems to allow Soulcasting at a distance) might also be a factor in maintaining a bond despite physical isolation

B. The first Willshapers on modern Roshar are Singers, which offers some very interesting options. Can they use bond weakening to "exorcise" Voidspren from Singers (and replace them with other spren)? Can they go even further and expel the Fused from Singer bodies?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think they can break something, I think they are more about reshaping. I do think it can be used to metaphorically weaken reality and then allow them to use Transportation to make a portal node. Basically I think Willshapers and Elsecallers together made the Oathgates, typing to their ideas of being builders, as while a builder can destroy something it is only in service towards making something - they build up, and if building requires breaking then they will break, but only to build. I think the more spiritual uses of Surges is a Truthwatcher and Bondsmith thing, and that the other orders are more restricted. I do like your idea of excising voidspren, but the Fused displace the original Singer's soul, so they probably would die if they were removed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

I don't think they can break something, I think they are more about reshaping. I do think it can be used to metaphorically weaken reality and then allow them to use Transportation to make a portal node. Basically I think Willshapers and Elsecallers together made the Oathgates, typing to their ideas of being builders, as while a builder can destroy something it is only in service towards making something - they build up, and if building requires breaking then they will break, but only to build. I think the more spiritual uses of Surges is a Truthwatcher and Bondsmith thing, and that the other orders are more restricted. I do like your idea of excising voidspren, but the Fused displace the original Singer's soul, so they probably would die if they were removed. 

Yeah, breaking a bond would probably induce a slaveform, but weakening a bond could simply free a Singer's mind from Voidspren's influence so he can try to change form during the Highstorm. Bondsmiths definitely have the most Spiritual oriented Surges, Truthwatchers only get that because of spren corruption. As for Willshapers, the Reachers can, at the very least, imprison a Voidpsren in a gemheart, weakening a bond so that the Singer can hear old Rhythms and regain original personality while retaining the Form of Power. Whether this is specific to Willshapers (which I think would make much sense) or can extend to others, remains to be seen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Ixthos said:

I do think it can be used to metaphorically weaken reality and then allow them to use Transportation to make a portal node. 

I'm on the fence whether or not Willshapers can teleport.

For teleportation: the spiritual realm is all places at once.  Willshapers might be able to use cohesion to link the physical realm to the spiritual one and teleport that way. 

Against teleportation: Kalak didn't use it in the Way of Kings prologue. If he could teleport,  he would have been among the first at the rendezvous point to abandon his honorblade. Instead he was the very last. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Watchcry said:

Against teleportation: Kalak didn't use it in the Way of Kings prologue. If he could teleport,  he would have been among the first at the rendezvous point to abandon his honorblade. Instead he was the very last. 

I think Kalak might've simply been out of Stormlight, particularly given how inefficient Honorblades are in that regard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I think Kalak might've simply been out of Stormlight, particularly given how inefficient Honorblades are in that regard

Herald's didn't run out of stormlight back then because honor was still alive.  Their blades had direct,  unlimited access to honor (and stormlight). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Karger said:

Good questions.  I personally think that breaking bonds is more of a division thing.  It is entirely possible however that Willshapers can do some kind of bond stretching or reshapiong

I agree with this. But why stop at reshaping the Nahel bond?

Why not reshape someone's Spiritweb, provided you have a TON of Stormlight? I mean, they are called Willshapers. 

(Unless of course, there is evidence or a WOB I missed that disproves this... In which case I would be sad.) :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Cheat Commando said:

I agree with this. But why stop at reshaping the Nahel bond?

Why not reshape someone's Spiritweb, provided you have a TON of Stormlight? I mean, they are called Willshapers. 

(Unless of course, there is evidence or a WOB I missed that disproves this... In which case I would be sad.) :(

The investiture would probably interfere with that preventing the reshaping of a somebody spiritual aspect.

Edited by Darkfinder
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Watchcry said:

I'm on the fence whether or not Willshapers can teleport.

For teleportation: the spiritual realm is all places at once.  Willshapers might be able to use cohesion to link the physical realm to the spiritual one and teleport that way. 

Against teleportation: Kalak didn't use it in the Way of Kings prologue. If he could teleport,  he would have been among the first at the rendezvous point to abandon his honorblade. Instead he was the very last. 

That's a fair point both about how they might do it with the Spiritual realm and how Kalak didn't teleport, though for him not teleporting it is possibly that Willshaper teleportation using Transportation is more restricted than Elsecaller teleportation, or there was some effect in place where they fought that prevented it, but at the moment their isn't enough information to draw a conclusion.

 

It does seem natural to me that Willshapers and Elsecallers together are involved in making Oathgates though, due to them being built (matching Willshapers), enabling teleportation and transistioning into the cogntive realm from the physical and vice versa (both orders), and being administered two by two spren, one white and the other black (possibly matching the ideas of metal and ink respectively). Willshapers weaken space, Elsecallers transform the weakened space, and both together then use Transportation to turn it into a portal node. So perahps Willshapers can only teleport if they have had a chance to setup something first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Willshapers weaken space, Elsecallers transform the weakened space, and both together then use Transportation to turn it into a portal node. So perahps Willshapers can only teleport if they have had a chance to setup something first.

Are you suggesting direct manipulation of the fabric of space-time?

I think Investiture could do this kind of stuff, but it would probably take more than that to make it possible (& safe!)

Right now, the other two Realms and the Surge of Transportation provide a more easily achievable and safer means of travel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, R J said:

Are you suggesting direct manipulation of the fabric of space-time?

I think Investiture could do this kind of stuff, but it would probably take more than that to make it possible (& safe!)

Right now, the other two Realms and the Surge of Transportation provide a more easily achievable and safer means of travel

Oh yes, it probably is very dangerous :-P I think that is how the Oathgates were made, so it probably isn't something that can be done on a whim - so effort and planning are needed to do it and to do it safely - but I'm pretty sure that is how they were constructed.

There are two orders who can use Transportation, and likely both use them differently. And as wormholes are usually represented by space being warped, and as each Order likely has a method of combining both its surges together, it wouldn't be a massive leap for Willshapers, whose powers are in a sense "warping" for one and "travelling" for the other, to be capable of this. I could be wrong, but I think there are signs for this :-)

(Also, remember that as Brandon said, normally travel to and from Shadesmar requires a massive amount of investiture, but that Elsecallers' powers are specifically designed to work around this. So having exceptions to the rules is already something built into the surges, the surges making use of narrow bands of what is possible, exploiting minor deviations in the rules.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Oh yes, it probably is very dangerous :-P I think that is how the Oathgates were made, so it probably isn't something that can be done on a whim - so effort and planning are needed to do it and to do it safely - but I'm pretty sure that is how they were constructed.

There are two orders who can use Transportation, and likely both use them differently. And as wormholes are usually represented by space being warped, and as each Order likely has a method of combining both its surges together, it wouldn't be a massive leap for Willshapers, whose powers are in a sense "warping" for one and "travelling" for the other, to be capable of this. I could be wrong, but I think there are signs for this :-)

(Also, remember that as Brandon said, normally travel to and from Shadesmar requires a massive amount of investiture, but that Elsecallers' powers are specifically designed to work around this. So having exceptions to the rules is already something built into the surges, the surges making use of narrow bands of what is possible, exploiting minor deviations in the rules.)

No, the Oathgates also used Realmatic transition, as did the Ashyn to Roshar migration

Quote

Questioner

Did humans come to Roshar through Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson

It is technology or magic closer to how the Oathgates work. But it was like that. It's not canon but right now that's what I have. It's not canon because there are certain things I have to work out before that can work...

By the way I'll just say to the tape recording that I haven't canonized, like for instance if they traveled to Shadesmar to get to Shinovar from Ashyn. Right now I have that not being via Shadesmar, but the mechanics of that might not work out, and I might have to default to Shadesmar. So there's certain things, you'll see, where I say, "This isn't the canon answer, it's where I have things right now."

Overlord Jebus

So Urithiru might end up being a spaceship after all.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not that. Right now I have them using something closer to Oathgating, but it opens up a huge can of worms, when I'm not requiring direct-- When I'm sending through Spiritual Realm it opens up cans of worms, and I have to just make sure the mechanics on that are tight before I do it.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

That is also how the Surge of Transportation works 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, perpendicularities can be created. You'd need a lot of Investiture, right? You'd need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini perpendicularity, right? And slips herself into the Cognitive Realm.

Questioner 2

So it's just a question of skill, not a question of--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. It's hard to pull off, but some of the powers are built to do it.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

Seeing as Oathgates use the same fundamentals as Elsecalling

Quote

Questioner 1

Can you tell us about Transportation? Is it like gates from Wheel of Time

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Elsecalling? No. But-- but yes. 

Questioner 1

*laughter* I meant, like, the whole-- Just the Surge?

Questioner 2

Does it go to the Cognitive Realm, is that all it does? 

Brandon Sanderson

It is the power by which they created the Oathgates... So, there is a little more to it than that. But yes, it's basically-- yeah.

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

 

What would be the point in using the (hypothetical) Spiritual versions of these Surges for this purpose when the Spiritual Realm can already facilitate the same?

But it's nice to see speculation regarding how the Surges could perhaps be put to use in order to achieve interstellar travel through the Physical Realm. I've only seen theories regarding the Metallic Arts and Aons to achieve the same. I think it's high time someone did some proper theory-crafting on the matter.

Edited by R J
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Ixthos said:

That's a fair point both about how they might do it with the Spiritual realm and how Kalak didn't teleport, though for him not teleporting it is possibly that Willshaper teleportation using Transportation is more restricted than Elsecaller teleportation, or there was some effect in place where they fought that prevented it,

Or he just wanted to take as much time as he could getting back to the meeting place. Given his state of mind, he certainly wasn't likely to want to use the quickest option available.

Personally, from the hints so far I think that there is a kind of investiture gradient that determines how difficult it is to Transport to a given place in the physical realm and that maybe only 4th - 5th Ideal Elsecallers and Willshapers have a wide selection of points of arrival. The Oathgates were probably built on the most beneficient of these locations. But Urithiru in general is likely easy to transport to, because they had these odd niches formed like Star Trek transporters in the Radiant assembly  hall, which were intended as places for the Elsecallers and Willshapers to arrive safely, IMHO. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Watchcry said:

I'm on the fence whether or not Willshapers can teleport.

For teleportation: the spiritual realm is all places at once.  Willshapers might be able to use cohesion to link the physical realm to the spiritual one and teleport that way. 

Against teleportation: Kalak didn't use it in the Way of Kings prologue. If he could teleport,  he would have been among the first at the rendezvous point to abandon his honorblade. Instead he was the very last. 

Can the Surge of Transportation only connect the Physical and the Cognitive? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, R J said:

No, the Oathgates also used Realmatic transition, as did the Ashyn to Roshar migration

That is also how the Surge of Transportation works 

Seeing as Oathgates use the same fundamentals as Elsecalling

 

What would be the point in using the (hypothetical) Spiritual versions of these Surges for this purpose when the Spiritual Realm can already facilitate the same?

But it's nice to see speculation regarding how the Surges could perhaps be put to use in order to achieve interstellar travel through the Physical Realm. I've only seen theories regarding the Metallic Arts and Aons to achieve the same. I think it's high time someone did some proper theory-crafting on the matter.

I'm not really following what you are disagreeing with me on? Oathgates can potentially cover multiple types of travel - for one thing when teleporting from one to another one doesn't necessarily have to travel though Shadesmar, but they can still access Shadesmar. Transportation doesn't just have to be to the cognitive, etc. as it covers all forms of transport, so the surge can for example allow access to Shadesmar from the physical and vice versa, instantaneous physical teleportation without using Shadesmar, and a possibly geographically based sense of location, as well as allow other surges to work at a distance.

 

Also, yes, it would be nice to see more theories on non-allomantic ship systems :-) though we don't know all the mechanics of the Cosmere yet, so we might have to wait until more information is revealed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Watchcry said:

Against teleportation: Kalak didn't use it in the Way of Kings prologue. If he could teleport,  he would have been among the first at the rendezvous point to abandon his honorblade. Instead he was the very last. 

Just to throw out another possiblity:

When we see jasnah transfer to the physical realm we see a glowing image of her resolve,  then she notices wit, and then draws her blade on him. For all we know just after teleportation,  you are vulnerable and need to get your bearings. I re-read the scene and it starts with kalak rounding a stone ridge. Theoretically kalak could have teleported to the area and then advanced on foot as a recent battle took place there. So as to not teleport potentially in the middle of battle and get run through he teleported to a place nearby and advanced cautiously. As to why he arrived last, potentially he was busy with something all the way till then. Further we don't know if teleports could be traced. If so, by teleporting directly to the meeting place, he could be compromising the location. 

Just some thoughts 

Edited by Pathfinder
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, R J said:

Using Cohesion to create Physical wormholes

Ahhh, gotcha :-) I don't mean just Cohesion, but Cohesion with Transportation. After all, if Windrunners conceptually cause people to gravitate towards them, Lightweavers can spiritually transform others, and Stonewards conceptually embody the idea of being like a stone, solid and unyielding as their surges can solidify what otherwise would bend, it isn't too much of a stretch - as indeed this thread is all about - for more abstract concepts of cohesion to be involved. I think that reverse lashings are a combination of Gravitation and Adhesion, that Skybreakers have an opposite to a reverse lashing that can cause objects to burst apart with a touch using Gravitation and Division. I think that Truthwatchers can combine Illumination and Progression to see how things will progress for certain things, or even to shape the path something will grow along. I think ranged soulcasting as performed by Jasnah is done using Transportation and Transformation. I think all orders can combine their surges in unique ways, so it seems natural for transportation and cohesion to pair as the ability to form portal nodes. Of course, I could be wrong about each order having a unique combined surge, but this is just a theory :-P

 

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

Or he just wanted to take as much time as he could getting back to the meeting place. Given his state of mind, he certainly wasn't likely to want to use the quickest option available.

Personally, from the hints so far I think that there is a kind of investiture gradient that determines how difficult it is to Transport to a given place in the physical realm and that maybe only 4th - 5th Ideal Elsecallers and Willshapers have a wide selection of points of arrival. The Oathgates were probably built on the most beneficient of these locations. But Urithiru in general is likely easy to transport to, because they had these odd niches formed like Star Trek transporters in the Radiant assembly  hall, which were intended as places for the Elsecallers and Willshapers to arrive safely, IMHO. 

That is a possibility as well. This is actually one of the coolest elements of Surgebinding - growing as a Knight means becoming better and more efficient with the use of the abilities, the abilities themselves growing.

Urithiru as a location that naturally is viable for transportation is a good idea. What might also be interesting is if, for example, it is possible to change the transportation geography, in a sense, such that an area that normally is fairly easy to transport to becomes almost impossible to do so - as a defence - while making it easier to travel to another area if you know where or how.

 

 

Back on the topic of spiritual Cohesion, that might also tie into interactions with others, making them more trusting to you, allowing you to mould your connection to them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

 I think ranged soulcasting as performed by Jasnah is done using Transportation and Transformation. 

Just a point of clarity because many people still think this (i did too once upon a time) but there is a WoB showing its not the case. Elsecallers are just really good at soulcasting so can soulcast at a distance. A lightweaver can learn the same thing with enough practice. On phone so cant add WoB. If you search jasnah, soulcasting and lightweaver on the arcanum it should come up

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Just a point of clarity because many people still think this (i did too once upon a time) but there is a WoB showing its not the case. Elsecallers are just really good at soulcasting so can soulcast at a distance. A lightweaver can learn the same thing with enough practice. On phone so cant add WoB. If you search jasnah, soulcasting and lightweaver on the arcanum it should come up

Ahhh gotcha, thanks :-) I'll look for it later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

Ahhh gotcha, thanks :-) I'll look for it later.

No problemo. If it helps any, the WoB seems to be specific in regards to soulcasting at range, so theoretically the time jasnah soulcasted one person and then it spread to three others almost like a contagion could still be open season regarding the transportation/transformation combo. Still a whole lot we don't know. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Further we don't know if teleports could be traced. If so, by teleporting directly to the meeting place, he could be compromising the location.

So they can be traced for a short period after one transfers in between realms.

If you recall Jasnah's deleted scene,  when Jasnah arrived to the cognitive realm after being stabbed in the chest,  there was a distinct residual scar left in the space through which she transitioned.  I'm not sure if you saw the movie Jumper,  but they had the same concept,  except they could use those residual scars to follow behind other teleporters. I don't see it as an impossibility for another Elsecaller or Willshaper to do the same. 

Edited by Watchcry
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, R J said:

Can the Surge of Transportation only connect the Physical and the Cognitive? 

I personally think all surges have applications in all three realms,  but that some order's surges (like Bondsmiths) have more potency in a given realm than others.  I think orders on the KR double eye chart show this. Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers being in the middle are stronger in the spiritual realm,  those on the right side of the chart have more potency in the physical realm,  and orders on the left have more potency cognitively.

Edited by Watchcry
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...