Why Radiants are incredibly overpowered, and Mistborn aren't.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

And arguably a fight between a Radiant and a Mistborn is a 2vs1 fight. This can go on forever 

Which is why I break it down by systems the way I do.

[Could Be Fire]

On 7/8/2020 at 11:32 PM, Oltux72 said:

You left out mobility, emotional allomancy and short-changed the sensory department by leaving out elctrum. You are comparing an assassin/paramillitarty to a soldier.

I think you hit the heart of it. Mistborn are a very different kind of fighter than KRs (the WoB about how Kaladin would be Kelsier in a duel but Kelsier would kill him in a less-stringent setting highlights this). 

Emotional allomancy is a huge deal. I can't think of any other type of power that allows easy manipulation of other people on that level, it's a power like the Unmade/Odium more than ordinary KRs. Kaladin's insanely well set up as a soldier, but if someone rioted his depression he'd be very vulnerable. 

It's also very flexible. Allomancer's are one of the few kinds of magic users we've seen who can easily act a full power off-world (KR can't leave at all, Elantrians barely can and are greatly depowered, awakeners can't acquire more breaths off-world). All an Allomancer needs is ordinary metal. This is an important skill if you have cosmere level plans you want to enact. 

Metallic arts also have some of the most powerful potential out of any magic we've seen, compounding is insane. It's the key to not only unlimited health but unlimited investiture or fortune. Hemalurgy also unlocks basically any kind of investiture available.

KR are powerful, and as individuals are some of the strongest investiture users, but their powers are also very controlled and contained. They're very much people given power for a specific purpose (to protect and rebuild society). Other than maybe bondsmiths, they also don't have any access to the meta/spiritual abilities (F-chromium/nicrosil/etc., A-electrum/gold/chromium, all of hemalurgy, even Selish forgery) that other magic systems have free play in. 

[Frustration]

31 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

I think you hit the heart of it. Mistborn are a very different kind of fighter than KRs (the WoB about how Kaladin would be Kelsier in a duel but Kelsier would kill him in a less-stringent setting highlights this). 

Emotional allomancy is a huge deal. I can't think of any other type of power that allows easy manipulation of other people on that level, it's a power like the Unmade/Odium more than ordinary KRs. Kaladin's insanely well set up as a soldier, but if someone rioted his depression he'd be very vulnerable. 

It's also very flexible. Allomancer's are one of the few kinds of magic users we've seen who can easily act a full power off-world (KR can't leave at all, Elantrians barely can and are greatly depowered, awakeners can't acquire more breaths off-world). All an Allomancer needs is ordinary metal. This is an important skill if you have cosmere level plans you want to enact. 

Ahem

On 7/9/2020 at 8:55 AM, Frustration said:

Shardplate renders it useless.

 

32 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

Metallic arts also have some of the most powerful potential out of any magic we've seen, compounding is insane. It's the key to not only unlimited health but unlimited investiture or fortune. Hemalurgy also unlocks basically any kind of investiture available.

KR are powerful, and as individuals are some of the strongest investiture users, but their powers are also very controlled and contained. They're very much people given power for a specific purpose (to protect and rebuild society). Other than maybe bondsmiths, they also don't have any access to the meta/spiritual abilities (F-chromium/nicrosil/etc., A-electrum/gold/chromium, all of hemalurgy, even Selish forgery) that other magic systems have free play in. 

I specifically said Mistborn, I go over the other magic systems in other places.

[Kingsdaughter613]

27 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

I think you hit the heart of it. Mistborn are a very different kind of fighter than KRs (the WoB about how Kaladin would be Kelsier in a duel but Kelsier would kill him in a less-stringent setting highlights this). 

Emotional allomancy is a huge deal. I can't think of any other type of power that allows easy manipulation of other people on that level, it's a power like the Unmade/Odium more than ordinary KRs. Kaladin's insanely well set up as a soldier, but if someone rioted his depression he'd be very vulnerable. 

It's also very flexible. Allomancer's are one of the few kinds of magic users we've seen who can easily act a full power off-world (KR can't leave at all, Elantrians barely can and are greatly depowered, awakeners can't acquire more breaths off-world). All an Allomancer needs is ordinary metal. This is an important skill if you have cosmere level plans you want to enact. 

Metallic arts also have some of the most powerful potential out of any magic we've seen, compounding is insane. It's the key to not only unlimited health but unlimited investiture or fortune. Hemalurgy also unlocks basically any kind of investiture available.

KR are powerful, and as individuals are some of the strongest investiture users, but their powers are also very controlled and contained. They're very much people given power for a specific purpose (to protect and rebuild society). Other than maybe bondsmiths, they also don't have any access to the meta/spiritual abilities (F-chromium/nicrosil/etc., A-electrum/gold/chromium, all of hemalurgy, even Selish forgery) that other magic systems have free play in. 

Radiants actually have one BIG weakness - their oaths.

Someone on Reddit asked who would win between Kelsier and Kaladin. My answer was that Kelsier would - because he refuses to fight. If he’s not fighting, then Kaladin can’t hurt him because of his oaths. So he just sits around until Kal has to go somewhere else... or dies of old age, which isn’t a concern for Kell.

(I then wrote up the match, wherein Kell points out that HE won’t be needed for 70 or so years, minus a cameo in TLM, which takes place several years after KOWT. Kal will be needed in SA5, so he needs to leave before Kelsier does. Basically, his cage match with Moiraine, but with an opponent who isn’t nearly as good at manipulation.)

Consider that. An army that can be defeated by refusing to engage. Not surrendering; just a refusal to fight.

Skybreakers? Figure out what code they follow, then use it against them.

That’s the two orders most tricky for Mistborn taken out of the picture. With the exception of Lightweavers, the other Orders likely have similar weaknesses. Obviously, you need a sharp mind to manipulate those weaknesses, but if you can you can win. Or, at least, stalemate.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The situation you described doesn’t work. That’s EXACTLY the reasoning Kaladin used in WoR and it didn’t work then. There’s another thing too, but I can’t discuss it here.

Kal, yes. All Windrunner, no. kaladin felt he was doing something wrong, while another Windrunner would see this as the only option, as well as the spren's perception.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Just now, Aspiring Writer said:

Kal, yes. All Windrunner, no. kaladin felt he was doing something wrong, while another Windrunner would see this as the only option, as well as the spren's perception.

From what we’ve seen, most of the Windrunner Spren at this particular point in time have similar opinions. Also, Brandon has said the Windrunners wouldn’t be okay with Adolin killing Sadeas, which is a similar situation. So indications are that this would work at present.

[Dunkum]

Yea, I doubt any windrunner is going to be able to kill a defenseless man.  probably not edgedancers either.  but there doesn't seem to be anything constraining a lightweaver.  and for Kel specifically, he has broken so many laws that I doubt any skybreaker even slightly familiar with his history will have trouble justifying it.

[Chaos]

Be mindful that you are not in RoW areas so content from that cannot be discussed. I had to remove some posts from members who have many, many posts, and I think you know the drill at this stage.

[Aspiring Writer]

5 hours ago, Chaos said:

Be mindful that you are not in RoW areas so content from that cannot be discussed. I had to remove some posts from members who have many, many posts, and I think you know the drill at this stage.

Can we move this into the RoW thread? Assuming @Frustration is okay with it.

[Chaos]

If Frustration wishes, that can be done.

[Frustration]

9 hours ago, Chaos said:

If Frustration wishes, that can be done.

We already have one thread about this in RoW, I see no reason to add mine.

[Chaos]

Well then ya'll can talk about it there if you want to have RoW things.

[Notsav95]

On 7/9/2020 at 9:55 PM, Frustration said:

1. I am referring to Shardbows not granbows
2. Those Slings where throwing head sized rocks and only caused "small cracks" and puffs of stormlight from joints
3. I'm alright banning the Radiants from having arrows but Mistborn loses coins in that deal

Your forgetting Plate, coins can't get through it. As for outlasting a Radiant they can last just as long as a Mistborn can, longer in fact because Blades have an infinite run time and living plate probably does as well. A Mistborn has to get through Shardplate, overcome the Radiants stormlight and then kill them, all without getting touched by a  weapon over 6 feet long, easy.

So, a few things to consider here in general that I think are getting overlooked slightly. Also considering the age of the post though, not sure it's well known. Also not sure on spoilers on a post like this so, spoilers spoilers spoilers ahead for Lost Metal and Rythm of War

 

 

Warning issued

Experience doesn't *always* matter in regards to Knights Radiant. We've seen how difficult it is for a knight to earn his plate, a lot of knights never reached the ideal required to earn plate. We only see two knights reach this, one had a relatively easy time earning this, while the other went through a literal nightmare of emotional turmoil to earn his. If we consider the average Knight Radiant gets to the third ideal and stops at that point, shard isn't relevant. Most mistborn tried to keep a bit of Atium on them and use it in a last ditch effort, but it may not even reach this with a third ideal radiant or below. As for plate, a handful of coins with enough force behind them will cause issues, on top of this it could be nails or daggers or whatnots. Likewise, in Lost Metal we learn that Wax did manage to make a small amount of Lerasium and Atium when separating harmonium with Trellium so the metals can exist in this time. We have a WOB that more Lerasium could be made naturally my Harmony but he chooses not to too, and this could likely be done Atium although with big implications for the harmony/disorder dynamic   Now, on the *reverse* side of this, we see Shallan get shot in the head with an arrow. And she is pretty blasé about healing that, isn't bothered by it at all by the next chapter.

 

I think it really is a case of whittling down one another. A mistborn would likely outlast a knight radiant, and without plate they're at a a significant disadvantage. But it is a glass canon scenario. One lucky hit or even a thrown blade and a mistborn is dead. As for bows and arrows, we never see knights radiant use these. So I don't see it really being an item here. I also think it's unlikely a mistborn will use nails to throw, but it's been done before so it's not entirely off the table, especially if it's in a city setting

[Frustration]

45 minutes ago, Notsav95 said:

So, a few things to consider here in general that I think are getting overlooked slightly. Also considering the age of the post though, not sure it's well known. Also not sure on spoilers on a post like this so, spoilers spoilers spoilers ahead for Lost Metal and Rythm of War

 

 

Warning issued

Experience doesn't *always* matter in regards to Knights Radiant. We've seen how difficult it is for a knight to earn his plate, a lot of knights never reached the ideal required to earn plate. We only see two knights reach this, one had a relatively easy time earning this, while the other went through a literal nightmare of emotional turmoil to earn his. If we consider the average Knight Radiant gets to the third ideal and stops at that point, shard isn't relevant. Most mistborn tried to keep a bit of Atium on them and use it in a last ditch effort, but it may not even reach this with a third ideal radiant or below. As for plate, a handful of coins with enough force behind them will cause issues, on top of this it could be nails or daggers or whatnots. Likewise, in Lost Metal we learn that Wax did manage to make a small amount of Lerasium and Atium when separating harmonium with Trellium so the metals can exist in this time. We have a WOB that more Lerasium could be made naturally my Harmony but he chooses not to too, and this could likely be done Atium although with big implications for the harmony/disorder dynamic   Now, on the *reverse* side of this, we see Shallan get shot in the head with an arrow. And she is pretty blasé about healing that, isn't bothered by it at all by the next chapter.

 

I think it really is a case of whittling down one another. A mistborn would likely outlast a knight radiant, and without plate they're at a a significant disadvantage. But it is a glass canon scenario. One lucky hit or even a thrown blade and a mistborn is dead. As for bows and arrows, we never see knights radiant use these. So I don't see it really being an item here. I also think it's unlikely a mistborn will use nails to throw, but it's been done before so it's not entirely off the table, especially if it's in a city setting

This thread has been dead for two and a half years. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't been archived.

 

Now I'm more than willing to continue this conversation, but in the future please be mindful of the date of the last post.

 

I do not believe that the majority of Radiants never reach the fourth ideal. Over three hundred Radiants of 4th oath or higher from just the Stonewards and Windrunners existed at once.

 

Shardplate could survive multiple shots from Wax, even with him going all out, burning steel and tapping iron there is still only the chance he could break it in one go. Coins aren't going to even come close.

 

Wax is the only one who was able to make Lerasium, with even Harmony admitting he doesn't know how that happened, so it is not a reliable method.

[OdiYum]

I am sorry, I saw it on the top of the thread list and asked before realizing it was dead.
 

So I have a silly question.  Does living plate have an eye slit?  It’s basically a transparent power armor that can assemble and disassemble at will and even fit a number of different sized people in an instant.  It’s a sapient armor that is directed by a sentient radiant spren and radiant.  So if the radiant wishes it, is there no eye slit?  Sensory information can make it through, sound can make it through, light can make it through, air can make it through, but pointy bits can’t.  Sure seems selectively permeable, why would it leave a stab by slit in the brain area?

Edited August 8, 2023 by OdiYum
Woops

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, OdiYum said:

I am sorry, I saw it on the top of the thread list and asked before realizing it was dead.
 

So I have a silly question.  Does living plate have an eye slit?  It’s basically a transparent power armor that can assemble and disassemble at will and even fit a number of different sized people in an instant.  It’s a sapient armor that is directed by a sentient radiant spren and radiant.  So if the radiant wishes it, is there no eye slit?  Sensory information can make it through, sound can make it through, light can make it through, air can make it through, but pointy bits can’t.  Sure seems selectively permeable, why would it leave a stab by slit in the brain area?

No worries

 

They can seal the eye-slit if they want to, Jasnah does so in RoW.

[Notsav95]

I know, it's why I said considering the age of the post in the first paragraph haha. I think Wax could probably put more than a couple cracks in the armour, his anti-thug gun he has would probably crack plate fairly well considering the force of it. And again, it's been awhile since I reread the books, listened to them recently on audio but you know there's always details missed when doing that. The orders of skybreaker and windrunners seem to be the most known about orders, from a structural standpoint. Szeth's trainers tell him most are only on their third ideal at his time, with a few of the fourth and only one of the fifth. Otherwise, going from Dalinars flashback we do see a few armoured knights, but this may be honour/tanavast vision deliberately selling the idea of the radiants in the visions. The stormfather states this is the case in certain circumstances. Now actually obtaining the armour, like I said seems to vary in difficulty and i'd imagine it isn't always the fourth ideal. Pattern seems a bit loser with when the blade is earned, so i'd imagine it may or may not be easier for lightweavers. Edgedancers i'd say would have an easier time too, as Lift gets her shardblade/stick fairly quickly.We've only got the one dustbringer who has one so could be easy, could be hard, not enough exposure. Jasnah, like I said could simply be made for this, or her order might also be more pragmatic in their approach to shards. I'd still say that the average radiant wouldn't have plate necessarily. Same with how the average mistborn wouldn't have access to Atium or Lerasium. If they do have plate, then depending on the era and the setting I could still see a mistborn possibly winning, but I wouldn't think it overly likely. I am curious what burning the other godmetals (Raysium, Tanavastium(?)) would do though, or if it's possible. I'd assume so, since Autonomy has an affect on Hemalurgy but that's a different topic. It's not as simple as 2+2 = 4, 1+1 = 3, so 4 is bigger than 3 which is what a lot of this article seemed to be way back when

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Notsav95 said:

I know, it's why I said considering the age of the post in the first paragraph haha. I think Wax could probably put more than a couple cracks in the armour, his anti-thug gun he has would probably crack plate fairly well considering the force of it.

The gun that has so much recoil he has to tap iron to use it?

1 hour ago, Notsav95 said:

The orders of skybreaker and windrunners seem to be the most known about orders, from a structural standpoint. Szeth's trainers tell him most are only on their third ideal at his time, with a few of the fourth and only one of the fifth. Otherwise, going from Dalinars flashback we do see a few armoured knights, but this may be honour/tanavast vision deliberately selling the idea of the radiants in the visions. The stormfather states this is the case in certain circumstances. Now actually obtaining the armour, like I said seems to vary in difficulty and i'd imagine it isn't always the fourth ideal. Pattern seems a bit loser with when the blade is earned, so i'd imagine it may or may not be easier for lightweavers. Edgedancers i'd say would have an easier time too, as Lift gets her shardblade/stick fairly quickly.We've only got the one dustbringer who has one so could be easy, could be hard, not enough exposure. Jasnah, like I said could simply be made for this, or her order might also be more pragmatic in their approach to shards. I'd still say that the average radiant wouldn't have plate necessarily. 

Considering that at most some orders had a low thousand members and we know from the Reference vision that the Windrunners had at least 100 plated radiants, while the Stonewards had 200(and those cannot be all of them as Windrunners were the largest order, so the Stonewards having nearly doubled their plated radiants makes no sense) we can see that while it might not be the majority, having shardplate is not that rare, below 1 in 10 at the very least.

1 hour ago, Notsav95 said:

I am curious what burning the other godmetals (Raysium, Tanavastium(?)) would do though, or if it's possible.

It is but it requires Connection manipulation, and isn't something they can do naturally.

[alder24]

16 hours ago, Notsav95 said:

I think Wax could probably put more than a couple cracks in the armour, his anti-thug gun he has would probably crack plate fairly well considering the force of it.

Wax can use just Vindication to crack a plate in 1-3 shots.

Spoiler

Questioner

How many shots would it take for Wax using his gun to break a section of Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

Considering that at most some orders had a low thousand members and we know from the Reference vision that the Windrunners had at least 100 plated radiants, while the Stonewards had 200(and those cannot be all of them as Windrunners were the largest order, so the Stonewards having nearly doubled their plated radiants makes no sense) we can see that while it might not be the majority, having shardplate is not that rare, below 1 in 10 at the very least.

Skybreakers are proving it's statistically rare. Windrunners were most numerous because they had a lot of squires - which didn't bond with spren. There were 2000 Honorspren killed in Recreance, 100 Radiants at 4th Ideal is equal to 5%. That's not a lot, but not a little. We don't know how many Stonewards and their spren was back there, but we know they were also a frontline order with lots of members. I wouldn't be surprised if they could surpass Windrunners in numbers of plates. But I think it's reasonable to assume that 2 or 3 times more Windrunners were with plates (that's 10-15%). 

[therunner]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Wax can use just Vindication to crack a plate in 1-3 shots.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

How many shots would it take for Wax using his gun to break a section of Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

These are probably tapping weight and pushing on the bullet though, which he often does. So not something non-Crasher could replicate.

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Skybreakers are proving it's statistically rare.

Skybreakers are also hinted to be held back by their adherence to Nale's interpretation of the Oaths.
Had they been allowed to explore their Oaths less rigidly there might be more.

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 There were 2000 Honorspren killed in Recreance, 100 Radiants at 4th Ideal is equal to 5%.

That would still be 1 in 20, quite common. And it is assuming that the ~100 Plated Windrunners seen in vision was all of them.

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 I wouldn't be surprised if they could surpass Windrunners in numbers of plates. But I think it's reasonable to assume that 2 or 3 times more Windrunners were with plates (that's 10-15%). 

What would be the reason? The Oaths don't vary in difficulty among orders, so one should not expect the percentages to change much (outside of some standard deviation).

[alder24]

1 minute ago, therunner said:

What would be the reason? The Oaths don't vary in difficulty among orders, so one should not expect the percentages to change much (outside of some standard deviation).

Very clearly the 4th Ideal is more difficult to say than the 3rd one. Kaladin knew the words for more than a year but wasn't ready to say them. It took the direct intervention of an unchained Bondsmith, who not only accepted his words, but reunited him with Tien, which then convinced him to let go of the past for Kaladin to be finally ready to say those words. Without this, he wouldn't say them. This isn't a luxury ancient Radiants had. Whole RoW is about Kaladin struggling to accept the 4th Ideal with which he struggled since the very first chapter of WoK.

[therunner]

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Very clearly the 4th Ideal is more difficult to say than the 3rd one. Kaladin knew the words for more than a year but wasn't ready to say them. It took the direct intervention of an unchained Bondsmith, who not only accepted his words, but reunited him with Tien, which then convinced him to let go of the past for Kaladin to be finally ready to say those words. Without this, he wouldn't say them. This isn't a luxury ancient Radiants had. Whole RoW is about Kaladin struggling to accept the 4th Ideal with which he struggled since the very first chapter of WoK.

Not true, It was difficult for Kaladin.

Jasnah did not have such an issue as far as we know, and Teft was on the verge of swearing 4th Ideal before Kaladin, despite swearing 3rd quite a while after him.

Per WoBs there can be people who can swear all 5 Oaths on the spot, there is no set 'difficulty' to them. Some will struggle with 2nd, some will struggle with 4th.
Some will struggle with 1st, but once there will quickly get to 5th.

Edited August 10, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

Jasnah did not have such an issue as far as we know, and Teft was on the verge of swearing 4th Ideal before Kaladin, despite swearing 3rd quite a while after him.

We don't know what her Ideals and struggles were, she was a Radiant for at least 6/7 years, and she is Jasnah.

[therunner]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

We don't know what her Ideals and struggles were, she was a Radiant for at least 6/7 years, and she is Jasnah.

Fair point on that we don't know her struggles, however she clearly did not require as much aid as Kaladin. Just re-read the scene with Renarin where it is suggested she figures out 4th Oath.
Same for Teft.

All this points at Kaladin being the outlier, rather than the usual experience.

Even if every Oath is equally difficult, you would get the distribution where there is progressively less people at higher Oaths, so I don't really see reason for them to be 'difficult'.

Edited August 10, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

Fair point on that we don't know her struggles, however she clearly did not require as much aid as Kaladin. Just re-read the scene with Renarin where it is suggested she figures out 4th Oath.
Same for Teft.

Teft didn't swear 4th Ideal, he was close, like Kaladin but didn't say the words. He could have been stuck on it for years if not for his death. He's not an example.

Ultimately we have only one data point, which is Kaladin, and we know nothing more about struggles of others like Jasnah. Everything we say is equally as likely and until we get more data we won’t know how hard it is.