Why Radiants are incredibly overpowered, and Mistborn aren't.

[StanLemon]

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Dustbringers according to Brandon are used like artillery for the KR. Arty means distance.  

That's still pure conjecture, we have not seen division at range in the books at all. The closest we've seen is them use it through a physical medium.

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I wouldn't discount Elsecallers so easily.  Jasnah proves one can Soulcast at range and nothing a Mistborn can throw is breaking through a Soulcast stone wall. 

True, but Soulcasting does use up a fair amount of Stormlight. For example, Jasnah destroyed a larger than average gem by turning a boulder into smoke. And unlike Allomancy, all Radiant Investiture tapping comes from the same source. So between infusing themselves, their Plate, and Surges they would have to worry about running out of Stormlight faster

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Willshapers and Stonewards can negate a Mistborn's mobility by turning the ground into quicksand.

I don't understand your logic on this, it wouldn't have much of an impact on their Steelpushes as the coin wouldn't take long to be forced to a stop even with quicksand

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Even a Lightweaver/ Truthwatcher is going to be a problem for the Mistborn. If the guy has his tin on the Radiant can overwhelm his senses with an impromptu light and/or sound show.

This is assuming that they both know about the increased senses and the weakness of overstimulation

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Chromium leeching isn't instantaneous.  And if it takes longer than a second to drain that Radiant the Mistborn is dead. 

Might not be instant, but it is pretty fast. Brandon has always more or less said it only takes seconds at most

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Despite their power and versatility Mistborn are rather low in Investiture per WOB. 

True, but this would still make Soulcasting them incredibly difficult as Jasnah has had an inner monologue about how difficult it is to Soulcast a normal person. The only reason she was able to do it with ease in Oathbringer is as she herself points out, the Realms were close together and there was an absolute abundance of Stormlight available. While a Mistborn's innate Investiture might not completely negate other Surges I'm sure it would have a negative impact on some of them.

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The problem any Mistborn will have versus a Radiant is that in any head to head the Mistborn must be perfect.  They fight an opponent that has at least 2 'I Win' buttons not including surges. If that Radiant connects with Shardblade or a plate enhanced punch, kick whatever the least thing that happens is something broken or rendered useless. A pewterarm may be able to shrug off a broken arm or leg but all the pewter in the world wouldn't stop a Shardblade deadening a limb. Death soon follows. Not to mention the Radiant has auto heal, meaning that even with Atium there are very few one shot kills a Mistborn can perform against that Radiant. The Mistborn must be perfect to overcome their disadvantages and outlast their opponents Stormlight.

I mostly agree with this. But a Mistborn with Electrum might be able to force it into a battle of attrition to see who runs out of Investiture first. Though that is pure conjecture on my part as we don't actually know enough about what Electrum can and cannot do. But with Atium and the manual precision that Pewter provides I don't think it would be overly difficult for a Mistborn to do the eye slit attack. The biggest weakness that a Radiant would have in this fight is that their magic system is much more Investiture heavy and they likely would run out of Stormlight before a Mistborn runs out of metals. So the longer a fight between a Mistborn and Radiant goes the more things would start tipping towards the Mistborn. As far as Stormlight healing goes, as we saw in Oathbringer, an attack to the head is still very much debilitating as having an arrow in the head left Shallan lost feeling in part of her body and needed help removing the arrow and pulling the arrow out caused her to black out.

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The only reliable way for a Mistborn to kill a Radiant is when their guard is down.  You let that Radiant armor up and get his fuel source and you die. And even that is going to be damnnation difficult if the guy's spren is watching. 

This goes back to the fact that Mistborn are ultimately assassins while Radiants are warriors. Now the Radiants Spren won't always be watching from every possible danger but it definitely is a boon, but then again as we've seen in Mistborn, coins can be shot a decent distance. All in all the Radiants have the overall advantage and I thing 9 out of 10 fights a skilled Radiant would beat a Mistborn but they are by no means insurmountable.

[StanLemon]

Personally I think the only magic system that truly could go head to head with a Radiant (excluding outliers such as Fullborn, 10th Heightening, Heralds etc.) with any reasonable chance of success would be a Feruchemist and even then only if they have a decently large amount of multiple combat useful traits stored up. I'm thinking along the lines of how much weight and strength Sazed had in WoA which was enough to last him hours of killing Koloss.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

 

Actually trav is slightly more correct here; Chromium allomancy can prevent a Shardblade from being summoned. So assuming that the Mistborn can at least sneak up on the Radiant at some point, they could Leech the Radiant long enough to get a solid Pewter punch to their spine and, well, the Leeching would also prevent any healing, so... Deceased Radiant.

Let's assume that the Mistborn is snuck up on, Shardblade is put through their neck, no healing, so.... Deceased Mistborn.

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, Frustration said:

Let's assume that the Mistborn is snuck up on, Shardblade is put through their neck, no healing, so.... Deceased Mistborn.

"All right, we'll call it a draw!"

[Frustration]

28 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

"All right, we'll call it a draw!"

On an ambush. What about open combat 

[Darkfinder]

Open combat a full radiant is going to win almost all the time due to radiants shards and stormlights healing abilities.

[+Bzhydack]

Yep, in open combat Radiant have better chances, but Mistborn can still win. Still Mistborn lack some abilities like healing. To mach Radiant, Mistborn probably want like 3 Feruchemical powers - gold, steel, iron. So spikes or medalions.

6 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Personally I think the only magic system that truly could go head to head with a Radiant (excluding outliers such as Fullborn, 10th Heightening, Heralds etc.) with any reasonable chance of success would be a Feruchemist and even then only if they have a decently large amount of multiple combat useful traits stored up.

I think Elantrian is stronger. In fact, Elantrian is theorethicly the strongest of all. With enough knowledge and practice with Aons Elantrian can do practicly anything, but need to overcome geographical issues.

[Darkfinder]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

I think Elantrian is stronger. In fact, Elantrian is theorethicly the strongest of all. With enough knowledge and practice with Aons Elantrian can do practicly anything, but need to overcome geographical issues.

The only problem with Elantrians (other than the geographical problems) is how fast they can draw Aons as well as their knowledge and precision while drawing. This leaves them open to attack from most other investiture users such as radiants and mistborn.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Darkfinder

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, Darkfinder said:

The only problem with Elantrians (other than the geographical problems) is how fast they can draw Aons as well as their knowledge and precision while drawing. This leaves them open to attack from most other investiture users such as radiants and mistborn.

He wouldn't really draw them if he were to prepare seriously for arcane combat. Elantrians and Awakeners are pretty unique in the Cosmere by having access to objects with arcane powers. He'd make a suit of Aonic armor, attack Aons on rings, Aonic spears and swords, Aonic grenades and so on. Maybe even Aonic homing missiles.

[Hoidolasium]

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

Let's assume that the Mistborn is snuck up on, Shardblade is put through their neck, no healing, so.... Deceased Mistborn.

That's part of my whole "Mistborn are the perfect assassins" point: a Mistborn is almost always burning tin and pewter, leading to greater environmental awareness and reflexes. It's probably difficult for anyone but a Drab (or Feruchemist) that is somehow perfectly quiet to sneak up on either, since a Mistborn uses their senses and a spren is unlikely to notice someone with no impact on the Cognitive realm.

10 hours ago, StanLemon said:

I mostly agree with this. But a Mistborn with Electrum might be able to force it into a battle of attrition to see who runs out of Investiture first. Though that is pure conjecture on my part as we don't actually know enough about what Electrum can and cannot do. But with Atium and the manual precision that Pewter provides I don't think it would be overly difficult for a Mistborn to do the eye slit attack. The biggest weakness that a Radiant would have in this fight is that their magic system is much more Investiture heavy and they likely would run out of Stormlight before a Mistborn runs out of metals. So the longer a fight between a Mistborn and Radiant goes the more things would start tipping towards the Mistborn. As far as Stormlight healing goes, as we saw in Oathbringer, an attack to the head is still very much debilitating as having an arrow in the head left Shallan lost feeling in part of her body and needed help removing the arrow and pulling the arrow out caused her to black out.

This is basically my point. The battle comes down to the Mistborn playing keep-away until one of them runs out of Investiture. A Windrunner or Skybreaker could follow effectively, but then what matters is who is more comfortable with their magic, since a Windrunner will catch up over long distances, but will get disoriented with quick, sudden changes, while the Mistborn will be using their ammunition to get away but can get a lot more precise in their movement, especially close to the ground. The majority of Radiants have a way to one hit KO the Mistborn, not even counting a hit from the Plate or Blade, so it's possible to win if the Mistborn is super careful, but the Radiant will always have a big advantage.

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He wouldn't really draw them if he were to prepare seriously for arcane combat. Elantrians and Awakeners are pretty unique in the Cosmere by having access to objects with arcane powers. He'd make a suit of Aonic armor, attack Aons on rings, Aonic spears and swords, Aonic grenades and so on. Maybe even Aonic homing missiles.

So they'd just turn themselves into a Radiant, is what you're saying. (Actually, custom Shardplate would be sick)

 

[Darkfinder]

A mistborn is going to win most of the time if there has been no preparation while with lots of preparation an elantrian has a high probability of winning, radiants are best all round.

[Criggleworth]

I think a hemalurgist also has a good chance, if given preparation. Especially of they are a worldhopper, since hemalurgy works everywhere and can steal most things.

I would think a clever hemalurgist would carry multiple spikes and not necessarily have them all inserted at once. Then, mix and match powers beforehand and even during a fight.

 

Some examples: Use F-gold and A-gold to compound healing, then keep in just the feruchemical spike to drawn on that well of healing. Compound bendalloy filled with water/hydration, keep the feruchemical spike and then combine it with sand mastery for practically limitless usage. Then use a ribbon of sand to aim for the Shardplate visor and thrash it about inside. 

Now, admittedly, I doubt a hemalurgist would beat a Radiant. Radiants have a ton of raw power at their disposal. Just musing that a clever hemalurgist could do some interesting things.

[Frustration]

31 minutes ago, Hoidolasium said:

That's part of my whole "Mistborn are the perfect assassins" point: a Mistborn is almost always burning tin and pewter, leading to greater environmental awareness and reflexes. It's probably difficult for anyone but a Drab (or Feruchemist) that is somehow perfectly quiet to sneak up on either, since a Mistborn uses their senses and a spren is unlikely to notice someone with no impact on the Cognitive realm.

Syl found Gaz no problem, Pattern found people and Spren tailing Shallan. It's not too much of a stretch. Additionally no Mistborn is burning tin 24/7

[Dunkum]

13 hours ago, StanLemon said:

True, but this would still make Soulcasting them incredibly difficult as Jasnah has had an inner monologue about how difficult it is to Soulcast a normal person. The only reason she was able to do it with ease in Oathbringer is as she herself points out, the Realms were close together and there was an absolute abundance of Stormlight available. While a Mistborn's innate Investiture might not completely negate other Surges I'm sure it would have a negative impact on some of them.

Don't forget copper.  there is every reason to believe that a coppercloud, whcih specifically protects against foreign investiture, would likely inhibit soulcasting (and potentially other surges as well).

Also, not related to this one, but I had trouble grabbing the exact quote from a prior page: I don't know why anyone thinks lightweaving would actually be all that useful.  A skilled lightweaver can fool multiple senses, and a very skilled one should be able to fool tin-enhanced senses, but you'd need and extremely skilled lightweaver with prior knowledge of allomancy to fool the metal sense of steel and iron.  Not to mention that bronze should be able to detect active uses of investiture.

not that this particualrly changes the end result.  Blade and Plate are overwhelming, and even just holding stormlight is probably equivalent to a light burn of pewter.  Without Atium, its hard to see a mistborn winning.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

Also, not related to this one, but I had trouble grabbing the exact quote from a prior page: I don't know why anyone thinks lightweaving would actually be all that useful.  A skilled lightweaver can fool multiple senses, and a very skilled one should be able to fool tin-enhanced senses, but you'd need and extremely skilled lightweaver with prior knowledge of allomancy to fool the metal sense of steel and iron.  Not to mention that bronze should be able to detect active uses of investiture.

Mainly that unless the Mistborn can tell where the person making the illusion is, it still has uses, make a big enough illusion and they know generally where you are, but not close enough to hit.

[StanLemon]

Personally I think the main thing Radiants get from just being infused with Stormlight alone is the enhanced healing. I think all or at least most other effects it gives stem off from that. Kaladin himself said that Stormlight doesn't greatly enhance strength but it does give great stamina. This could be explained with the strain of activity being instantly healed by Stormlight allowing the Radiant to push go beyond their normal limits. When you have boundless stamina you can run faster and harder. And in my last reread of the series there really never was a reference to it giving extra precision or dexterity. The closest I saw was Teft referring to it "perfecting" which I consider to be a bit of a stretch.

[Scriptorian]

On 7/9/2020 at 1:15 AM, Frustration said:

Hemalurgists can basically become Fullborn, but at the cost of a huge vulnerability, that being that Allomancers and Harmony could seize control of them. I find this flaw too big for this magic system to be of real consideration.

Re-hemalurgy:

Spoiler

Another factor to consider is prior knowledge. If both Mistborn and Radiant are ignorant of each other's abilities, the Radiant's defensive abilities are going to allow for a lot more mistakes than the Mistborn can afford.

So yeah. In just about any combat scenario the Radiant has a significant edge. Doesn't mean they'd always win, just that the Mistborn will need to to be rather skilled and/or lucky (or pull off excessive kiting).

I bet a Mistborn could avoid being soulcast by burning aluminum.  But, well that would require burning aluminum...

Edited July 10, 2020 by Scriptorian

[StanLemon]

9 minutes ago, Scriptorian said:

I bet a Mistborn could avoid being soulcast by burning aluminum.  But, well that would require burning aluminum...

They probably don't need to even use aluminum, simply burning metals would probably cancel any attempt to Soulcast them

[+Oltux72]

56 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

not that this particualrly changes the end result.  Blade and Plate are overwhelming, and even just holding stormlight is probably equivalent to a light burn of pewter.  Without Atium, its hard to see a mistborn winning.

Yes, in the case of a straight confrontation. But it raises the question why the Mistborn not just drops a coin, flies away and waits for a good ambush?

[Enter a username]

Here's my take on it:

Battle one: Mistborn has Atium. Result: Dagger through the eye slit. (Note: All further battles will ban the use of Atium)

Battle two: Mistborn does an ambush. Radiant doesn't have Plate on. Result: Coin!

Battle three: Mistborn does an ambush. Radiant does have Plate on. Result 1: Well-aimed coin! Result 2 (Much more likely): Dink. Shardblade!

Battle four: Radiant does an ambush. Result: Shardblade!

Battle five: Head-on battle with preparation. Result: Mistborn uses duralumin + steel to crack Plate, while using pewter and/or steel to stay away from Radiant. Plate eventually becomes dead weight. If Radiant can dismiss Plate, coin. If not, dagger through the eye slit while staying away from shardblade.

Battle six: Head-on battle without preparation. Result: Mistborn Steelpushes upwards while Radiant runs out of stormlight, but must eventually come down. Shardblade likely follows.

Battle seven: Head-on battle with... Um... Intervention... Result: IT'S RAINING TACOS comes blaring out of invisible speakers at volume 17,000 while it starts raining tacos. Mistborn covers his/her ears and screams while running around in circles. Radiant goes flat on the ground, face-down, and bangs his/her head on the ground while shouting, "MAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOPMAKEITSTOP" at the top of his/her lungs. If Radiant is Lift, infinite Awesomeness! (Note: this battle was written by my brother and will not be taken seriously.)

REAL Battle seven: Mistborn attempts ambush, but is spotted by spren. Result: Radiant reacts enough that Mistborn realizes ambush has failed. Mistborn Steelpushes upwards while duralumin-Steelpushing coins at Radiant. Likely similar to Battle five.

Final score: Mistborn wins, 4-3

[Frustration]

32 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

Battle one: Mistborn has Atium. Result: Dagger through the eye slit. (Note: All further battles will ban the use of Atium)

Windrunners, and Stonewards can overcome Atium other might be able to as well, Truthwatchers are probably immune.

33 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

Battle two: Mistborn does an ambush. Radiant doesn't have Plate on. Result: Coin!

Radiant heals and puts plate on, back t square one

34 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

Battle three: Mistborn does an ambush. Radiant does have Plate on. Result 1: Well-aimed coin! Result 2 (Much more likely): Dink. Shardblade!

1. Will not happen
2. Agree

34 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

Battle five: Head-on battle with preparation. Result: Mistborn uses duralumin + steel to crack Plate, while using pewter and/or steel to stay away from Radiant. Plate eventually becomes dead weight. If Radiant can dismiss Plate, coin. If not, dagger through the eye slit while staying away from shardblade.

Mitborn would only be able to do like maybe 5 shots like that and then be out of steel, a Radiant could last that long and still function, and there isn't a single order(with the possible exception of Truthwatchers) that you could reliably hit every time. and we don't even know if Live plate needs stormlight

37 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

Battle six: Head-on battle without preparation. Result: Mistborn Steelpushes upwards while Radiant runs out of stormlight, but must eventually come down. Shardblade likely follows.

Bows, grab the coin, don't inhale all your spheres at once, lots of ways around this

 

 

[Enter a username]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Windrunners, and Stonewards can overcome Atium other might be able to as well, Truthwatchers are probably immune.

How?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Enter a username said:

How?

Same way Vin did they are among the best warriors n the Order.

And Truthwatchers might be able to access fortune without Sja-anat

[Enter a username]

I don't think they'd have as extensive a knowledge of Atium, though.

Also, why is everyone on this thread spelling duralumin "dur-aluminum?"

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

I don't think they'd have as extensive a knowledge of Atium, though.

They could figure it out.

13 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

Also, why is everyone on this thread spelling duralumin "dur-aluminum?"

Because that's how I did it, my ski pole spells it "DUR ALUMINUM" so at least I use a Hyphen.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Frustration