CoinOp Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 'm a little late to the party but I'll throw in, too, as I've just finished reading it (been doing a chapter or two every couple days in my downtime). Overall, I enjoyed the book quite a bit. I'll be happy to have it in print eventually next year and it'll be interesting to listen to Michael and Kate read it, whenever that can happen. Does anybody recall if Brandon mentioned that it would be further proofed? I recall him mentioning that this got a bare once-over for copy and formatting, but that was it. I know it won't be touched/revised in any major way, but I did snort on page 744 when Dalenar professes to Jasnah, "I've killed your bother." Other thoughts: I felt that trademark Sandersonian momentum build within the last 50 pages as I continually glanced up to see where I was in relation to the end. I'm pleased to see that even early on, he had that flair to go out strong. Speaking of strong, I feel the ending was far stronger than the beginning. The last few pages gave us one heck of a twist, and I felt that Taln's send-off was quite beautiful. But then... I used to joke with my friends while reading Wheel of Time that Jordan would fill pages with descriptions of people blushing. I'd say there's an obvious influence here. A lot of the in-world terminology was grating at first, specifically the description of "tensets" of things--a result of our own real-world bias here, I guess. It got easier as I progressed though. I think I started off just replacing it with "dozens" as I read, but by the end I breezed through the term without issue after my internal inflections changed for reading the word. Shardblades were definitely just fantasy lightsabers. The lack of spren gave me a hollow impression of the blades--which is likely how it might feel if a Fabrialblade ends up being produced. The carryover of the bonding gem into SA, though, is a nice touch. The mental image of ripping a defeated bearer's gem from their blade and crushing it is just too good to have left behind. Merin tried. He's a good kid. Renarin's apparently always been a lurker, but damnation if he hasn't always been harshly judged for being a bit off from the norm. I appreciated Shinri's internalizations of Jasnah's lessons, and saw the future echoes of Shallan, but boy did she get herself into it deep by the end there. I felt for a short time that she might even try seducing Merin, but it didn't quite go that way. Pattern would be horrified by Shinri's habit--"Terrible destruction!" Funny how Brandon mirrored that in Ahven. Ahven's turn was a good one. He made for a compelling antagonist that descended quickly into outright villainy. His method of gaining insights from people's favored songs, poems, etc. was clever but I felt it went a bit far at times. It actually reminded me of a short stageplay I wrote years ago for a class (spoilered for.. I dunno, in case nobody wants to read it haha): Spoiler wherein my protagonist kept trying to make a sandwich, only to be interrupted by a series of pairs (mother and father, siblings, then two friends) in the midst of arguments. In between their dialog, the (very hungry) protagonist interjected small observations that were ostensibly just about the qualities of the sandwich they were trying to make, but inadvertently ended up giving advice to the others in the kitchen and giving them a solution to their problem. But then the intruders would chastise the protag for leaving a bunch of ingredients laying around and put everything away before exiting. Protag, still hungry and now upset over their appetite being kind of ruined, decides to make a different sandwich. Then the next pair comes in, repeat situation--I think I ended it by having the protag give up and just order a pizza. Kemnar! What a guy. Needs more love. Glad that he didn't meet his end, and I hope that he's still around in some capacity. Vasher being... not a scruffy grumplord was a little jarring, but I do wonder where his character might have gone/come from, what with the skepping trick. Like most people, I probably get hung up on CROM a bunch. It's hard to not hear Arnold yelling it in your head every time. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 Welcome to the Shard! 1 hour ago, CoinOp said: I'll be happy to have it in print eventually next year and it'll be interesting to listen to Michael and Kate read it, whenever that can happen. Ahhhh, I don't think there are plans for that right now. They missed unlocking that stretch goal by about two hundred thousand so I wouldn't expect an audio version unless there's a later announcement that they've worked it out. Missed that goal but we did get those awesome coasters at the end. I've got a friend that has read Jordan but not Sanderson so I'm hoping to get a chance to serve them a nice cold glass of RAFO some time as a way of encouraging them to also pick up Brandon's books. xD Quote A lot of the in-world terminology was grating at first, specifically the description of "tensets" of things--a result of our own real-world bias here, I guess. It got easier as I progressed though. I think I started off just replacing it with "dozens" as I read, but by the end I breezed through the term without issue after my internal inflections changed for reading the word. I think for me I wasn't so annoyed with that one as I've seen other people be, so much as the words that are almost but not quite what we're used to from SA. Stuff like Shinavar and Dalenar instead of Shinovar and Dalinar, crom instead of crem and so on...and I'm glad I'm not the only person whose mind went to Conan for the latter . But the thing that was probably the hardest for me with terminology was all the invented words, like I mentioned in my last post. Switching some of those things we were going to be hearing a lot to real words for ordinary usage (like Epellion becoming Radiant, saving the fantasy word for the listener language) helped smooth things out a bit. Quote Shardblades were definitely just fantasy lightsabers. The lack of spren gave me a hollow impression of the blades--which is likely how it might feel if a Fabrialblade ends up being produced. There are hints from Taln that there's something more to the blades than what we see in WokP but we don't really have enough information to know what it was. But yeah, the lack of spren and Brandon mentioning elsewhere that he cannibalized elements from a concept project that never took off to make Syl and (in another WoB) that he originally only intended for there to be a few major spren in SA means it's got to be something significantly different. Apparently it still goes back to how the Shardblades are made, but Taln is surprised that nobody is making them any more so their creation doesn't sound like something as big as what it became in SA. Quote Ahven's turn was a good one. He made for a compelling antagonist that descended quickly into outright villainy. His method of gaining insights from people's favored songs, poems, etc. was clever but I felt it went a bit far at times. It reminds me a lot of Timothy Zahn's Thrawn from the old Star Wars EU, who performed a similar level of analysis at the species level based on the art they produce, or on an individual level from what they collect. In fact, I'm pretty sure Brandon got the idea for Ahven from Thrawn because he mentions loving the character and that inspired some of what went into Wayne. Given that, I'd be shocked if Brandon hadn't been consciously drawing on the idea for Ahven too. Quote Vasher being... not a scruffy grumplord was a little jarring, but I do wonder where his character might have gone/come from, what with the skepping trick. The argument that he could have been the tyrant Jarnah is an interesting one and it would fit with canon!Vasher and his many dimly-remembered identities as Strifelover and Kalad the Usurper. We know something about the account of Dalenar defeating Jarnah isn't true and Vasher training Merin in a style of combat designed for a battlefield instead of a dueling arena and for fighting multiple opponents fits as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoinOp Posted August 14, 2020 Report Share Posted August 14, 2020 Quote Welcome to the Shard! Thanks! Lurked a while, though I'm not sure when it was I signed up. Figured I'd post for a change. Quote Ahhhh, I don't think there are plans for that right now. They missed unlocking that stretch goal by about two hundred thousand so I wouldn't expect an audio version unless there's a later announcement that they've worked it out. They're going to be counting additional funds from add-ons and full purchases in the Backerkit towards that total. There's still hope! I hadn't actually paid that close attention to where we ended, so forgive me for thinking it a bit closer to the $7m mark. A lot of people are still quite optimistic, myself included. Quote The argument that he could have been the tyrant Jarnah is an interesting one and it would fit with canon!Vasher and his many dimly-remembered identities as Strifelover and Kalad the Usurper. We know something about the account of Dalenar defeating Jarnah isn't true and Vasher training Merin in a style of combat designed for a battlefield instead of a dueling arena and for fighting multiple opponents fits as well. That certainly is interesting, but what would the tyrant have been doing as a monk in Kholinar/Shieldhome? We can maybe make the assumption that Dalenar was a more forgiving man as the Tyrantbane than Dalinar as the Blackthorn, but that's a bit of a stretch. Fun to think of him as an incognito would-be conqueror, though! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted August 14, 2020 Report Share Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) Yeah, I just saw Brandon confirm that they're counting add-on purchases and later orders towards it so it sounds like it is going to happen at some point, which is awesome. 3 hours ago, CoinOp said: That certainly is interesting, but what would the tyrant have been doing as a monk in Kholinar/Shieldhome? We can maybe make the assumption that Dalenar was a more forgiving man as the Tyrantbane than Dalinar as the Blackthorn, but that's a bit of a stretch. He does offer the option to Elhokar before opening hostilities, which suggests that it's seen as a valid means of removing someone from power without killing them, possibly even one Dalenar has offered before. While it's hard to say what future books would have done if Brandon had developed the series from Prime instead of the rewritten Way of Kings, I never really got the impression that Dalenar the Tyrantbane was dreaded in the same way the Blackthorn was. There's a definite hint that before that Dalenar was something similar to the Blackthorn, a man who killed hundreds on the battlefield and enjoyed it, but it sounds like it was the war against Jarnah that changed him. So it's possible that Dalenar, sick and weary of all the killing, offered Jarnah the same thing he later offered Elhokar, only the former accepted what the latter would one day reject. And then for whatever reason Dalenar ensured that the official accounts stated that he'd killed the tyrant. Another possibility (not mutually exclusive) is that Jarnah said something that made Dalenar hesitate and decide that here was someone worth keeping alive, just in case. We know the Shin invasions (which are old history in SA) were a recent event in Prime and that they believed the khothen were returning and saw allying with Jarnah as a reasonable decision in preparation for whatever was coming. This just happens to have been the same year that Merin, Shinri and Renarin were all born, the year that old magics started returning to the world. There's no way that's a coincidence. Maybe Jarnah knew something about the khothen and/or the magic (or thought he new something) and Dalenar realized that it made more sense to keep the man alive in case he turned out to be right. Edited August 14, 2020 by Weltall 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted August 14, 2020 Report Share Posted August 14, 2020 12 hours ago, CoinOp said: A lot of the in-world terminology was grating at first, specifically the description of "tensets" of thing This one especially kept annoying me, because we have the word "tens" in English, if he really wanted to stick to ten lol. I guess he probably thought it sounded too similar to "tons", but I feel like it'd still sound better than "tensets". Of course, his eventual decision to just go with the word "dozen" and use the "creative translation" excuse is better than both the other choices. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout_Fox Posted August 15, 2020 Report Share Posted August 15, 2020 (edited) Also late to the party (Uber took me to the wrong planet again, thinking I might need to try Lyft or something) but still thought I should post this since apparently I had a lot to say (I swear the keyboard took over idk what happened). Disclaimer: Totally loved the book just like I love basically every book Brandon writes with everything I have, wasn’t as good as later novels but was good in its own right and highly enjoyed seeing how Brandon’s ideas and writing style grew in the later novels and especially the way he handled challenging moral concepts and character creation. Its just… you killed Taln, and for that I can like never forgive you… jk, jk, literally every character could die in ROW and you already know I’d be lining up at the crack of dawn for Stormlight 5 Ok first … HOW COULD YOU KILL TALN MANS WORKS SO LONG TO GET THE TRUST OF HIS PEOPLE SURVIVES AN ADDITIONAL 1000 YEARS IN ETERNAL TORTURE MORE THAN ANY OF THE OTHER HERALDS AND YET STILL SHOWS UP TO TRY TO DEFEND MANKIND AND YOU JUST SHANK HIM IN THE SIDE WHILE HE’S TRYING TO HELPPPPPPPP Ok… now that that’s out of the way, WOW. What a book. Had it’s flaws yes but dang that was a trip. Ok I’m gonna start with what I thought was really good about this one then move to what I didn’t like then move more to like general discussion. First off, what an incredibly interesting way to treat the characters. What I loved about this was that it goes away from the normal “You’re a hero so you will survive even if all hope is lost and we have to invent a secret magical unicorn that farts rainbows and existed with you this entire time even though you didn’t know it” theme that exists in MOST hero stories that we see in movies and other modern stories. I had always wanted to see something where the good guys didn’t win, where you like go to help you’re Parshen who got set up and end up just dead on a stake, no hesitation not even a paragraph to you’re death, just bam, adios baby, despite being one of the most likeable people in the entire kingdom and heir to the, idk, TYRANTBANE. And then like can’t forget the magical warrior who survives an additional 1000 years in torture after already having WILLINGLY chosen to be part of the cycle of returns and having to forsake ever finding love no matter how long you live and then goes on to rally entire armies of people who had given up hope, kill 1000 people by yourself without plate, rescue like 100 or so people from a palace that was being invaded, forsake the only love you had found for the good of saving humanity YET AGAIN, then fight back your demons and question your own sanity as no one around you believes in you beside some drunkard Lord who just yeets outta there the minute you say he should put his history skills to the test… only to be shanked in the side by someone you were trying to protect while just barely being able to stay sane enough to stay alive. I mean but we could just ignore that right??? But for real though I had always wanted to see something where just everyone you love dies and just everything is brutally practical and totally not story-shielded (I mean why not just slaughter your sister and son who had come begging for your protection, eh… let’s snap some more bird necks too… hey after u wanna grab a beer by any chance?? Go for a stroll?? Nah me neither fam let’s just go slaughter a herald, literally the only one remaining who was actually willing to save us from the Khothen… no biggie bro it’s ight). AND what I found is that I absolutely hate it. Even though you totally expect the main hero to survive and it’s totally predictable it’s what you need… you need that bit of hope to survive cuz if not it’s just so damnation depressing (but like if that’s you totally support, mad respect bro). I got to the end of this and I was just like WHAT???? They’re all dead??? Ok and the character treatment wasn’t all bad, you finally had that like brutally practical “if they are an enemy to us they will die” attitude instead of the “Oh.. wait.. you’re the enemy, but what a good heart you must have… despite the fact that you killed all those people, how about instead of killing you I’m just gonna knock you down and you know what… I’ll stand over here and just look at myself in the mirror while you stay there right next to the massive gun I just happened to leave there… oh, what could happen??” attitude. Like Dalenar goes and kills Elhokar because he realized he’s a bad king. Like thank you … finally some initiative and doing what’s right instead of just story-shielding the whole time. I mean they followed rule #1 of being a hero: ALWAYS KILL THE BAD GUY! But like at the same time I realized that that type of character treatment, as much as I thought I wanted it, was totally just not at all as fulfilling. Now lets get to what I really didn’t like about this version and what I realized I really liked that got fixed about later drafts. For one the naming, yes as someone mentioned we are used to the words from the published Stormlight series, but at the same time, I never realized how big of an effect naming had on making a story good. Like I was reading the beginning and I was like “crom??” uhhhh for real?? Like just the way “crem” sounds is just soooo much nicer. And like Jeksonsonsonsonsosnosnsonsosnwehadtoomanysonlettersattheprintingpress was just confusing as heck. Szeth just flows. And like Shinri to Shallan. Like just the way the names sounded and how starkly I noticed them was really surprising to see and made me really appreciative of all the work the Sanderson team must do to make the published Stormlight as awesome as it is. Ok another thing, while we are on the topic of Jekmustuseallthesonletters his not retirutbution arc (taking him and Szeth to be the same character) at the end just really bothered me. Like I needed it… like soooooo badly. Like when Szeth finally realized he was right and his clan was wrong and he is not Truthless and then like mans up and goes to fight for Dalinar my heart was like literally bursting. Like after all the pain and death he caused he goes and just jabs a massive middle finger at Taravangian. So when Jek sees that Merin is a Windrunner as he air Thanos punches him across the freaking battlefield and then doesn’t go like… "wait… if the old powers have returned (quoting him basically) then I’m not Truthless and I can go kill Ahven," and instead is just like “You know what, how about I just kill these guards here as well cuz you know I like killing people” I was just severely heartbroken. I mean this does suppose that he became Truthless for the same reason (“lying” about radiants/Epellion knights returning [just putting both here for the similarity comparison but yes they are different]) but like since no other reason was given I assume he did. So for me this was just a major example of how much better Stormlight is than the Oathshard realm because you get these characters who actually follow meaningful arcs and who you can empathize with. Speaking of characters, another thing I REALLY didn’t like about this was that you didn’t have a consistent good guy like at ALL in the book. And though like in the end Dalinar comes out of Wussinar (Wuss + Kholinar [yes I am aware I’m amazing]) and goes and fights and Taln finally gets to like just be a badass and just god-style his way through the Veden army it still felt like there were massive parts (ESPECIALLY the middle) where you just didn’t have a hero. Like I got to around 50% in the book (thanks Kindle) and was just like, wait…. IS there even a good guy in this book?? Like Aredor (rip broski may you fight in the Tranquiline Halls with honor [yes I realize wrong world let me have my moment!!]) was dead, Renarin and Merin were captured, (cuz like why the frick not at this point even though they were captured by Jek and his crew who were supposed to be searching the passages out of the hill that Taln had led the squad out of in a completely different part of the WORLD I thought???) Shinri is over here just being shut down by Ahven, Jasnah is under Meridas’ watch, Elhokar and his wife are evil and brought assassins just so they could attack their cousin and Dalenar is over in Wussinar (does it get better if I use it twice??) and I’m just reading this going like wait, who IS even good in this. And like even Balenmar or whatever his name was who turned out to be the Herald who broke the Oathpact despite the fact that I thought he would be like a Wit type character and actually turn out to be good, was also gone and apparently evil. So… I’m just sitting here at 50% sobbing in my PJs like WHY?? WHY MUST THIS HAPPEN?? AREN’T THERE ANY HEROES LEFT???? Jk jk I was more just sitting in my nicely furnished chair inside my quiet house reading about an entire palace being slaughtered and heroes dying while sipping my coffee, CUZ YES IT WAS MORNING DON’T JUDGE ….. So anyway one thing that I think significantly undermines the success of this book (and makes the later books all the more awe inspiring and amazing) is that you didn’t really have a GOOD character. You didn’t have that one (or even better many) characters that you just really empathized with and wanted to survive. This is another thing that I had COMPLETELY overlooked when reading Stormlight. Ok and another thing, the addition of Wit/Hoid to the later novels I think was suuuuuch a good choice. Cuz although he isn’t like a main, main character he is someone who is always there and he gives you hope. Like even when just the dung hits the fan and everything seems hopeless you always hold out that hope that Wit will be there and guide them and see them through. This hope that he and for the most part Future Jasnah provide just keeps you reading the books even when everything seems hopeless and I think it was a REALLY good tactic to add to the book and Cosmere as a whole. I GOT 2 MORE SO HOLD ON TO YOUR HATS AND GLASSES AND KEEP ALL ARMS AND LEGS INSIDE THE VEHICLE. My second to last rant has gotta be about the whole Merin/ Dalenar thing. So Merin leaves to go track down and hopefully save Aredor because Renarin said he was gonna die. This is something that not even Dalenar was willing to do for his son. Goes there, rides a freaking HIGHSTORM to get there, survives days on horseback, gets captured for no reason, survives days being imprisoned (something we know is characteristically difficult for Windrunners from both series'), finds a way to escape, kills a shardbearer despite being handcuffed, gets Dalenar’s last remaining son out of there to safety, listens to him about where to go, ends up liberating an ENTIRE country that had been enslaved for 30 years after WILLINGLY giving themselves up (not to mention oh I don’t know defeating 3 soldiers in full plate and blade and 2 with just blades all at the same time and winning all their blades and plates and then distributing it to the right people including the humble soldier who held his blade and made all of this possible in the first place) showing that the country had low desire to fight given that they had just handed themselves over 30 years ago, somehow gets all of them to support and even idolize him, gets one of them to even swear an oath to him proclaiming him as their lord, advises Renarin AGAINST seeking the full truth by diving too far into the Onyx despite not even knowing what it would entail (him going brain kaput apparently), and then bringing his dead body back anways, IN ADDITION, to getting them to overthrow the Vedens despite fears of retaliation and take their entire fleet to go LITERALLY save Dalenar and all of his people … and then just because his son is dead (after having gone against Merin’s advisement, which he obviously told Dalenar about right Merin big guy??? LIKE WOULDN’T MAKE ANY SENSE TO KEEP THAT AND EVERYTHING ELSE A SECRET YA BIG DUMBO) Dalenar can’t forgive Merin despite the fact that it isn’t his fault and he literally freed an entire nation and saved Dalenar and all of Alethkar and so Merin gives up his blade and title and goes to be hmmm lemme check … A FARMER AGAIN???? After finally figuring out what The Way of Kings meant and how to be a true noble lord freeing nations and getting men to swear an oath to you (not to mention he is one of the now two alive Knights Epellion since Renarin is brain smooshed [and maybe some other Onyxseers of Ahven’s and the Elinrah]). After all that he just gives it up to go be a farmer. Uhh WHAT?? He doesn’t even give a second thought to Kalenmar or whoever who has now sworn himself to him or the Thalankenwhatever army that basically worships him. AND at this point the blade didn’t even belong to Dalenar. He had won it twice already (once to protect Elhokar once to get it back from the Jailer) then won 5 more, freeing Thalankakakaihwhatever. HE was literally a lord like 7 times over the title didn’t even belong to Dalenar anymore and he had no claim to take it away. Maybe the Kholin namesake but Merin coulda just switched names especially since IDK, he saved the entire kingdom basically single-handedly and deserved at least his own 2nd rank city named after him if not after Kholin. Dalenar showed no gratefulness for the man who literally kept Alethkar from falling and existing no more and Merin showed no f-ing spine to be like you know what I earned this. BESIDES, he never even went against Dalenar’s order because he never actually fought in the Crossguard war, freaking Dalenar did himself. Like this whole arc was so damnation frustrating and pointless then. I thought (keeping with the non-standard arcs) that Dalenar would be like “Merin, I have no more sons or heirs and neither does the kingdom since the past queen thought it a good idea TO WALK BACK TO THE ARMY OF THE ENEMEY WITH THE KINDOM’S HEIR (uhhhh does anyone have any braincells here??) … since I was so fond of you Merin and both of my sons even grew to really respect you and consider you a friend, will you be my adopted son if not at the very least my heir?” This entire story was just like yo can anything good happen at all? Ok and my last complaint here has gotta be that ending. O. M. G. Taln is just over here fighting 1000s of guys, already having beaten 5 Shardbearers with no problems, literally using the last of his sanity to keep himself in it and keep fighting, only being able to focus on the cloaks even, and then here comes Jek woop-die-do lookie here is that a good guy up there, welp look where I just happen to be again *SHANK* oops my b homie were you trying to live there sorry about that now let me go off and hide in my cloak that I stole that also happens to be THE ONLY THING THAT TALN COULD SEE AT THE TIME CUZ MANS IS TRYING TO STAY SANE SMH and just walk off here completely unnoticed in an ENTIRE ARMY where I look nothing like anyone else on either side. HMMMMMMMM. Ok but like that ain’t even the most annoying part. Although that part just absolutely pissed me off to no end and made me want to throw my Kindle across the room and run over it repeatedly with a freight train (I’m not mad idk what you talking about not like Taln was the only truly honorable character in the book [besides Nelshaden who also freaking died]) the epilogue ending like seriously got me. Two more of the non-traitorous Heralds just show up there, watch Taln die (without having explained anything to him about why things were off this return the entire time he had been there but who obviously had to know of Taln’s existence the whole time cuz they followed him there), see the traitorous Herald, obviously interfering with political matters and HMMM maybe having helped get Taln killed IDK not like he’s a bad guy or anything, and then use the reasoning of “No, remember we decided to not search each other out and interfere" despite the fact that we are both here so we obviously searched each other out and the fact they found Taln so they obviously searched him out and the fact that the TRAITOR the one who literally killed their bond and ruined the Oathpact is obviously interfering. Like ARE. YOU. FREAKING. KIDDING. ME. They knew of his return since they followed him and tracked him (and spoke with him in Riemak but didn’t yknow… tell him that they were who he was looking for and going mad trying to find) and yet the ENTIRE time they didn’t do a single thing to help him in any way nor did they think to… idk.. EXPLAIN TO HIM THAT THEY HAD ALL ABANDONED HIM TO ETERNAL SUFFERING WHILE THEY JUST JOINED DALENAR IN WUSSINAR (I think if I keep using it, it’ll get even better) AND THEN WHEN HE HAPPENS TO MIRACULOUSLY COME BACK WITH A SUSPICIOUS WARNING OF THE RETURN OF THE KHOTHEN (BECAUSE IDK MAYBE SINCE HE SUFFERED AND WAS BROUGHT BACK IT MEANS SOMETHING) THEY DON’T DO A SINGLE damnation THING TO MAKE CONTACT, SAY SORRY, EXPLAIN, GET INFORMATION ABOUT WHY HE’S BACK???? NO THEY JUST SIT THERE, WATCH HIM DIE, SEE THE TRAITOR WHO NO DOUBT HAD A HAND IN KILLING HIM, AND THEN JUST WALK AWAY USING REASONING THAT WAS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE TRAITOR WAS DOING AT THE MOMENT. S. M. H. So anyway not that it really got me riled up or anything but that part of the story just felt really wrong to me. That and the way Ahven was just pure evil with not like a single redeeming quality or attempt to save the world were two things that just didn’t feel right at all. And this is obviously why these versions of the story stay in draft and the ones we see now are so meaningful to us. SO anyway, really, really enjoyed being able to read this version. It is amazing to see how different aspects of the world changed over time and all the time and effort the team had to put into the official series to turn them into the books we all love. I totally agree that this book was not as fulfilling as later ones in the series but at the same time the fact that we were able to see where it all started was really amazing. Edited August 15, 2020 by Scout_Fox 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theTruthshaper Posted August 15, 2020 Report Share Posted August 15, 2020 2 hours ago, Scout_Fox said: Also late to the party (Uber took me to the wrong planet again, thinking I might need to try Lyft or something) but still thought I should post this since apparently I had a lot to say (I swear the keyboard took over idk what happened). Disclaimer: Totally loved the book just like I love basically every book Brandon writes with everything I have, wasn’t as good as later novels but was good in its own right and highly enjoyed seeing how Brandon’s ideas and writing style grew in the later novels and especially the way he handled challenging moral concepts and character creation. Its just… you killed Taln, and for that I can like never forgive you… jk, jk, literally every character could die in ROW and you already know I’d be lining up at the crack of dawn for Stormlight 5 Ok first … HOW COULD YOU KILL TALN MANS WORKS SO LONG TO GET THE TRUST OF HIS PEOPLE SURVIVES AN ADDITIONAL 1000 YEARS IN ETERNAL TORTURE MORE THAN ANY OF THE OTHER HERALDS AND YET STILL SHOWS UP TO TRY TO DEFEND MANKIND AND YOU JUST SHANK HIM IN THE SIDE WHILE HE’S TRYING TO HELPPPPPPPP Ok… now that that’s out of the way, WOW. What a book. Had it’s flaws yes but dang that was a trip. Ok I’m gonna start with what I thought was really good about this one then move to what I didn’t like then move more to like general discussion. First off, what an incredibly interesting way to treat the characters. What I loved about this was that it goes away from the normal “You’re a hero so you will survive even if all hope is lost and we have to invent a secret magical unicorn that farts rainbows and existed with you this entire time even though you didn’t know it” theme that exists in MOST hero stories that we see in movies and other modern stories. I had always wanted to see something where the good guys didn’t win, where you like go to help you’re Parshen who got set up and end up just dead on a stake, no hesitation not even a paragraph to you’re death, just bam, adios baby, despite being one of the most likeable people in the entire kingdom and heir to the, idk, TYRANTBANE. And then like can’t forget the magical warrior who survives an additional 1000 years in torture after already having WILLINGLY chosen to be part of the cycle of returns and having to forsake ever finding love no matter how long you live and then goes on to rally entire armies of people who had given up hope, kill 1000 people by yourself without plate, rescue like 100 or so people from a palace that was being invaded, forsake the only love you had found for the good of saving humanity YET AGAIN, then fight back your demons and question your own sanity as no one around you believes in you beside some drunkard Lord who just yeets outta there the minute you say he should put his history skills to the test… only to be shanked in the side by someone you were trying to protect while just barely being able to stay sane enough to stay alive. I mean but we could just ignore that right??? But for real though I had always wanted to see something where just everyone you love dies and just everything is brutally practical and totally not story-shielded (I mean why not just slaughter your sister and son who had come begging for your protection, eh… let’s snap some more bird necks too… hey after u wanna grab a beer by any chance?? Go for a stroll?? Nah me neither fam let’s just go slaughter a herald, literally the only one remaining who was actually willing to save us from the Khothen… no biggie bro it’s ight). AND what I found is that I absolutely hate it. Even though you totally expect the main hero to survive and it’s totally predictable it’s what you need… you need that bit of hope to survive cuz if not it’s just so damnation depressing (but like if that’s you totally support, mad respect bro). I got to the end of this and I was just like WHAT???? They’re all dead??? Ok and the character treatment wasn’t all bad, you finally had that like brutally practical “if they are an enemy to us they will die” attitude instead of the “Oh.. wait.. you’re the enemy, but what a good heart you must have… despite the fact that you killed all those people, how about instead of killing you I’m just gonna knock you down and you know what… I’ll stand over here and just look at myself in the mirror while you stay there right next to the massive gun I just happened to leave there… oh, what could happen??” attitude. Like Dalenar goes and kills Elhokar because he realized he’s a bad king. Like thank you … finally some initiative and doing what’s right instead of just story-shielding the whole time. I mean they followed rule #1 of being a hero: ALWAYS KILL THE BAD GUY! But like at the same time I realized that that type of character treatment, as much as I thought I wanted it, was totally just not at all as fulfilling. Now lets get to what I really didn’t like about this version and what I realized I really liked that got fixed about later drafts. For one the naming, yes as someone mentioned we are used to the words from the published Stormlight series, but at the same time, I never realized how big of an effect naming had on making a story good. Like I was reading the beginning and I was like “crom??” uhhhh for real?? Like just the way “crem” sounds is just soooo much nicer. And like Jeksonsonsonsonsosnosnsonsosnwehadtoomanysonlettersattheprintingpress was just confusing as heck. Szeth just flows. And like Shinri to Shallan. Like just the way the names sounded and how starkly I noticed them was really surprising to see and made me really appreciative of all the work the Sanderson team must do to make the published Stormlight as awesome as it is. Ok another thing, while we are on the topic of Jekmustuseallthesonletters his not retirutbution arc (taking him and Szeth to be the same character) at the end just really bothered me. Like I needed it… like soooooo badly. Like when Szeth finally realized he was right and his clan was wrong and he is not Truthless and then like mans up and goes to fight for Dalinar my heart was like literally bursting. Like after all the pain and death he caused he goes and just jabs a massive middle finger at Taravangian. So when Jek sees that Merin is a Windrunner as he air Thanos punches him across the freaking battlefield and then doesn’t go like… "wait… if the old powers have returned (quoting him basically) then I’m not Truthless and I can go kill Ahven," and instead is just like “You know what, how about I just kill these guards here as well cuz you know I like killing people” I was just severely heartbroken. I mean this does suppose that he became Truthless for the same reason (“lying” about radiants/Epellion knights returning [just putting both here for the similarity comparison but yes they are different]) but like since no other reason was given I assume he did. So for me this was just a major example of how much better Stormlight is than the Oathshard realm because you get these characters who actually follow meaningful arcs and who you can empathize with. Speaking of characters, another thing I REALLY didn’t like about this was that you didn’t have a consistent good guy like at ALL in the book. And though like in the end Dalinar comes out of Wussinar (Wuss + Kholinar [yes I am aware I’m amazing]) and goes and fights and Taln finally gets to like just be a badass and just god-style his way through the Veden army it still felt like there were massive parts (ESPECIALLY the middle) where you just didn’t have a hero. Like I got to around 50% in the book (thanks Kindle) and was just like, wait…. IS there even a good guy in this book?? Like Aredor (rip broski may you fight in the Tranquiline Halls with honor [yes I realize wrong world let me have my moment!!]) was dead, Renarin and Merin were captured, (cuz like why the frick not at this point even though they were captured by Jek and his crew who were supposed to be searching the passages out of the hill that Taln had led the squad out of in a completely different part of the WORLD I thought???) Shinri is over here just being shut down by Ahven, Jasnah is under Meridas’ watch, Elhokar and his wife are evil and brought assassins just so they could attack their cousin and Dalenar is over in Wussinar (does it get better if I use it twice??) and I’m just reading this going like wait, who IS even good in this. And like even Balenmar or whatever his name was who turned out to be the Herald who broke the Oathpact despite the fact that I thought he would be like a Wit type character and actually turn out to be good, was also gone and apparently evil. So… I’m just sitting here at 50% sobbing in my PJs like WHY?? WHY MUST THIS HAPPEN?? AREN’T THERE ANY HEROES LEFT???? Jk jk I was more just sitting in my nicely furnished chair inside my quiet house reading about an entire palace being slaughtered and heroes dying while sipping my coffee, CUZ YES IT WAS MORNING DON’T JUDGE ….. So anyway one thing that I think significantly undermines the success of this book (and makes the later books all the more awe inspiring and amazing) is that you didn’t really have a GOOD character. You didn’t have that one (or even better many) characters that you just really empathized with and wanted to survive. This is another thing that I had COMPLETELY overlooked when reading Stormlight. Ok and another thing, the addition of Wit/Hoid to the later novels I think was suuuuuch a good choice. Cuz although he isn’t like a main, main character he is someone who is always there and he gives you hope. Like even when just the dung hits the fan and everything seems hopeless you always hold out that hope that Wit will be there and guide them and see them through. This hope that he and for the most part Future Jasnah provide just keeps you reading the books even when everything seems hopeless and I think it was a REALLY good tactic to add to the book and Cosmere as a whole. I GOT 2 MORE SO HOLD ON TO YOUR HATS AND GLASSES AND KEEP ALL ARMS AND LEGS INSIDE THE VEHICLE. My second to last rant has gotta be about the whole Merin/ Dalenar thing. So Merin leaves to go track down and hopefully save Aredor because Renarin said he was gonna die. This is something that not even Dalenar was willing to do for his son. Goes there, rides a freaking HIGHSTORM to get there, survives days on horseback, gets captured for no reason, survives days being imprisoned (something we know is characteristically difficult for Windrunners from both series'), finds a way to escape, kills a shardbearer despite being handcuffed, gets Dalenar’s last remaining son out of there to safety, listens to him about where to go, ends up liberating an ENTIRE country that had been enslaved for 30 years after WILLINGLY giving themselves up (not to mention oh I don’t know defeating 3 soldiers in full plate and blade and 2 with just blades all at the same time and winning all their blades and plates and then distributing it to the right people including the humble soldier who held his blade and made all of this possible in the first place) showing that the country had low desire to fight given that they had just handed themselves over 30 years ago, somehow gets all of them to support and even idolize him, gets one of them to even swear an oath to him proclaiming him as their lord, advises Renarin AGAINST seeking the full truth by diving too far into the Onyx despite not even knowing what it would entail (him going brain kaput apparently), and then bringing his dead body back anways, IN ADDITION, to getting them to overthrow the Vedens despite fears of retaliation and take their entire fleet to go LITERALLY save Dalenar and all of his people … and then just because his son is dead (after having gone against Merin’s advisement, which he obviously told Dalenar about right Merin big guy??? LIKE WOULDN’T MAKE ANY SENSE TO KEEP THAT AND EVERYTHING ELSE A SECRET YA BIG DUMBO) Dalenar can’t forgive Merin despite the fact that it isn’t his fault and he literally freed an entire nation and saved Dalenar and all of Alethkar and so Merin gives up his blade and title and goes to be hmmm lemme check … A FARMER AGAIN???? After finally figuring out what The Way of Kings meant and how to be a true noble lord freeing nations and getting men to swear an oath to you (not to mention he is one of the now two alive Knights Epellion since Renarin is brain smooshed [and maybe some other Onyxseers of Ahven’s and the Elinrah]). After all that he just gives it up to go be a farmer. Uhh WHAT?? He doesn’t even give a second thought to Kalenmar or whoever who has now sworn himself to him or the Thalankenwhatever army that basically worships him. AND at this point the blade didn’t even belong to Dalenar. He had won it twice already (once to protect Elhokar once to get it back from the Jailer) then won 5 more, freeing Thalankakakaihwhatever. HE was literally a lord like 7 times over the title didn’t even belong to Dalenar anymore and he had no claim to take it away. Maybe the Kholin namesake but Merin coulda just switched names especially since IDK, he saved the entire kingdom basically single-handedly and deserved at least his own 2nd rank city named after him if not after Kholin. Dalenar showed no gratefulness for the man who literally kept Alethkar from falling and existing no more and Merin showed no f-ing spine to be like you know what I earned this. BESIDES, he never even went against Dalenar’s order because he never actually fought in the Crossguard war, freaking Dalenar did himself. Like this whole arc was so damnation frustrating and pointless then. I thought (keeping with the non-standard arcs) that Dalenar would be like “Merin, I have no more sons or heirs and neither does the kingdom since the past queen thought it a good idea TO WALK BACK TO THE ARMY OF THE ENEMEY WITH THE KINDOM’S HEIR (uhhhh does anyone have any braincells here??) … since I was so fond of you Merin and both of my sons even grew to really respect you and consider you a friend, will you be my adopted son if not at the very least my heir?” This entire story was just like yo can anything good happen at all? Ok and my last complaint here has gotta be that ending. O. M. G. Taln is just over here fighting 1000s of guys, already having beaten 5 Shardbearers with no problems, literally using the last of his sanity to keep himself in it and keep fighting, only being able to focus on the cloaks even, and then here comes Jek woop-die-do lookie here is that a good guy up there, welp look where I just happen to be again *SHANK* oops my b homie were you trying to live there sorry about that now let me go off and hide in my cloak that I stole that also happens to be THE ONLY THING THAT TALN COULD SEE AT THE TIME CUZ MANS IS TRYING TO STAY SANE SMH and just walk off here completely unnoticed in an ENTIRE ARMY where I look nothing like anyone else on either side. HMMMMMMMM. Ok but like that ain’t even the most annoying part. Although that part just absolutely pissed me off to no end and made me want to throw my Kindle across the room and run over it repeatedly with a freight train (I’m not mad idk what you talking about not like Taln was the only truly honorable character in the book [besides Nelshaden who also freaking died]) the epilogue ending like seriously got me. Two more of the non-traitorous Heralds just show up there, watch Taln die (without having explained anything to him about why things were off this return the entire time he had been there but who obviously had to know of Taln’s existence the whole time cuz they followed him there), see the traitorous Herald, obviously interfering with political matters and HMMM maybe having helped get Taln killed IDK not like he’s a bad guy or anything, and then use the reasoning of “No, remember we decided to not search each other out and interfere" despite the fact that we are both here so we obviously searched each other out and the fact they found Taln so they obviously searched him out and the fact that the TRAITOR the one who literally killed their bond and ruined the Oathpact is obviously interfering. Like ARE. YOU. FREAKING. KIDDING. ME. They knew of his return since they followed him and tracked him (and spoke with him in Riemak but didn’t yknow… tell him that they were who he was looking for and going mad trying to find) and yet the ENTIRE time they didn’t do a single thing to help him in any way nor did they think to… idk.. EXPLAIN TO HIM THAT THEY HAD ALL ABANDONED HIM TO ETERNAL SUFFERING WHILE THEY JUST JOINED DALENAR IN WUSSINAR (I think if I keep using it, it’ll get even better) AND THEN WHEN HE HAPPENS TO MIRACULOUSLY COME BACK WITH A SUSPICIOUS WARNING OF THE RETURN OF THE KHOTHEN (BECAUSE IDK MAYBE SINCE HE SUFFERED AND WAS BROUGHT BACK IT MEANS SOMETHING) THEY DON’T DO A SINGLE damnation THING TO MAKE CONTACT, SAY SORRY, EXPLAIN, GET INFORMATION ABOUT WHY HE’S BACK???? NO THEY JUST SIT THERE, WATCH HIM DIE, SEE THE TRAITOR WHO NO DOUBT HAD A HAND IN KILLING HIM, AND THEN JUST WALK AWAY USING REASONING THAT WAS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE TRAITOR WAS DOING AT THE MOMENT. S. M. H. So anyway not that it really got me riled up or anything but that part of the story just felt really wrong to me. That and the way Ahven was just pure evil with not like a single redeeming quality or attempt to save the world were two things that just didn’t feel right at all. And this is obviously why these versions of the story stay in draft and the ones we see now are so meaningful to us. SO anyway, really, really enjoyed being able to read this version. It is amazing to see how different aspects of the world changed over time and all the time and effort the team had to put into the official series to turn them into the books we all love. I totally agree that this book was not as fulfilling as later ones in the series but at the same time the fact that we were able to see where it all started was really amazing. Wow. This was more enjoyable then Prime, imo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout_Fox Posted August 15, 2020 Report Share Posted August 15, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said: Wow. This was more enjoyable then Prime, imo. Thanks! I was hoping people would get a laugh out of it, so glad you enjoyed it wow! I figured if I was going to write something so ridiculously long that the season started changing outside my window I would try to make it as entertaining as possible Edited August 15, 2020 by Scout_Fox 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted August 17, 2020 Report Share Posted August 17, 2020 Quote “We all die, every time, Jasnah. Either we die at Khothen hands or our own. We can’t stay in this world, not for very long. Sometimes we can remain for several decades, but we always have to go eventually. There are . . . reasons we cannot be here. Oof, I hadn't really considered how the Heralds who didn't die during the Desolations returned to Damnation. Killing themselves is a simple enough explanation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spren of Kindness Posted August 17, 2020 Report Share Posted August 17, 2020 On 8/14/2020 at 11:34 PM, Scout_Fox said: Also late to the party (Uber took me to the wrong planet again, thinking I might need to try Lyft or something) but still thought I should post this since apparently I had a lot to say (I swear the keyboard took over idk what happened). Disclaimer: Totally loved the book just like I love basically every book Brandon writes with everything I have, wasn’t as good as later novels but was good in its own right and highly enjoyed seeing how Brandon’s ideas and writing style grew in the later novels and especially the way he handled challenging moral concepts and character creation. Its just… you killed Taln, and for that I can like never forgive you… jk, jk, literally every character could die in ROW and you already know I’d be lining up at the crack of dawn for Stormlight 5 Ok first … HOW COULD YOU KILL TALN MANS WORKS SO LONG TO GET THE TRUST OF HIS PEOPLE SURVIVES AN ADDITIONAL 1000 YEARS IN ETERNAL TORTURE MORE THAN ANY OF THE OTHER HERALDS AND YET STILL SHOWS UP TO TRY TO DEFEND MANKIND AND YOU JUST SHANK HIM IN THE SIDE WHILE HE’S TRYING TO HELPPPPPPPP Ok… now that that’s out of the way, WOW. What a book. Had it’s flaws yes but dang that was a trip. Ok I’m gonna start with what I thought was really good about this one then move to what I didn’t like then move more to like general discussion. First off, what an incredibly interesting way to treat the characters. What I loved about this was that it goes away from the normal “You’re a hero so you will survive even if all hope is lost and we have to invent a secret magical unicorn that farts rainbows and existed with you this entire time even though you didn’t know it” theme that exists in MOST hero stories that we see in movies and other modern stories. I had always wanted to see something where the good guys didn’t win, where you like go to help you’re Parshen who got set up and end up just dead on a stake, no hesitation not even a paragraph to you’re death, just bam, adios baby, despite being one of the most likeable people in the entire kingdom and heir to the, idk, TYRANTBANE. And then like can’t forget the magical warrior who survives an additional 1000 years in torture after already having WILLINGLY chosen to be part of the cycle of returns and having to forsake ever finding love no matter how long you live and then goes on to rally entire armies of people who had given up hope, kill 1000 people by yourself without plate, rescue like 100 or so people from a palace that was being invaded, forsake the only love you had found for the good of saving humanity YET AGAIN, then fight back your demons and question your own sanity as no one around you believes in you beside some drunkard Lord who just yeets outta there the minute you say he should put his history skills to the test… only to be shanked in the side by someone you were trying to protect while just barely being able to stay sane enough to stay alive. I mean but we could just ignore that right??? But for real though I had always wanted to see something where just everyone you love dies and just everything is brutally practical and totally not story-shielded (I mean why not just slaughter your sister and son who had come begging for your protection, eh… let’s snap some more bird necks too… hey after u wanna grab a beer by any chance?? Go for a stroll?? Nah me neither fam let’s just go slaughter a herald, literally the only one remaining who was actually willing to save us from the Khothen… no biggie bro it’s ight). AND what I found is that I absolutely hate it. Even though you totally expect the main hero to survive and it’s totally predictable it’s what you need… you need that bit of hope to survive cuz if not it’s just so damnation depressing (but like if that’s you totally support, mad respect bro). I got to the end of this and I was just like WHAT???? They’re all dead??? Ok and the character treatment wasn’t all bad, you finally had that like brutally practical “if they are an enemy to us they will die” attitude instead of the “Oh.. wait.. you’re the enemy, but what a good heart you must have… despite the fact that you killed all those people, how about instead of killing you I’m just gonna knock you down and you know what… I’ll stand over here and just look at myself in the mirror while you stay there right next to the massive gun I just happened to leave there… oh, what could happen??” attitude. Like Dalenar goes and kills Elhokar because he realized he’s a bad king. Like thank you … finally some initiative and doing what’s right instead of just story-shielding the whole time. I mean they followed rule #1 of being a hero: ALWAYS KILL THE BAD GUY! But like at the same time I realized that that type of character treatment, as much as I thought I wanted it, was totally just not at all as fulfilling. Now lets get to what I really didn’t like about this version and what I realized I really liked that got fixed about later drafts. For one the naming, yes as someone mentioned we are used to the words from the published Stormlight series, but at the same time, I never realized how big of an effect naming had on making a story good. Like I was reading the beginning and I was like “crom??” uhhhh for real?? Like just the way “crem” sounds is just soooo much nicer. And like Jeksonsonsonsonsosnosnsonsosnwehadtoomanysonlettersattheprintingpress was just confusing as heck. Szeth just flows. And like Shinri to Shallan. Like just the way the names sounded and how starkly I noticed them was really surprising to see and made me really appreciative of all the work the Sanderson team must do to make the published Stormlight as awesome as it is. Ok another thing, while we are on the topic of Jekmustuseallthesonletters his not retirutbution arc (taking him and Szeth to be the same character) at the end just really bothered me. Like I needed it… like soooooo badly. Like when Szeth finally realized he was right and his clan was wrong and he is not Truthless and then like mans up and goes to fight for Dalinar my heart was like literally bursting. Like after all the pain and death he caused he goes and just jabs a massive middle finger at Taravangian. So when Jek sees that Merin is a Windrunner as he air Thanos punches him across the freaking battlefield and then doesn’t go like… "wait… if the old powers have returned (quoting him basically) then I’m not Truthless and I can go kill Ahven," and instead is just like “You know what, how about I just kill these guards here as well cuz you know I like killing people” I was just severely heartbroken. I mean this does suppose that he became Truthless for the same reason (“lying” about radiants/Epellion knights returning [just putting both here for the similarity comparison but yes they are different]) but like since no other reason was given I assume he did. So for me this was just a major example of how much better Stormlight is than the Oathshard realm because you get these characters who actually follow meaningful arcs and who you can empathize with. Speaking of characters, another thing I REALLY didn’t like about this was that you didn’t have a consistent good guy like at ALL in the book. And though like in the end Dalinar comes out of Wussinar (Wuss + Kholinar [yes I am aware I’m amazing]) and goes and fights and Taln finally gets to like just be a badass and just god-style his way through the Veden army it still felt like there were massive parts (ESPECIALLY the middle) where you just didn’t have a hero. Like I got to around 50% in the book (thanks Kindle) and was just like, wait…. IS there even a good guy in this book?? Like Aredor (rip broski may you fight in the Tranquiline Halls with honor [yes I realize wrong world let me have my moment!!]) was dead, Renarin and Merin were captured, (cuz like why the frick not at this point even though they were captured by Jek and his crew who were supposed to be searching the passages out of the hill that Taln had led the squad out of in a completely different part of the WORLD I thought???) Shinri is over here just being shut down by Ahven, Jasnah is under Meridas’ watch, Elhokar and his wife are evil and brought assassins just so they could attack their cousin and Dalenar is over in Wussinar (does it get better if I use it twice??) and I’m just reading this going like wait, who IS even good in this. And like even Balenmar or whatever his name was who turned out to be the Herald who broke the Oathpact despite the fact that I thought he would be like a Wit type character and actually turn out to be good, was also gone and apparently evil. So… I’m just sitting here at 50% sobbing in my PJs like WHY?? WHY MUST THIS HAPPEN?? AREN’T THERE ANY HEROES LEFT???? Jk jk I was more just sitting in my nicely furnished chair inside my quiet house reading about an entire palace being slaughtered and heroes dying while sipping my coffee, CUZ YES IT WAS MORNING DON’T JUDGE ….. So anyway one thing that I think significantly undermines the success of this book (and makes the later books all the more awe inspiring and amazing) is that you didn’t really have a GOOD character. You didn’t have that one (or even better many) characters that you just really empathized with and wanted to survive. This is another thing that I had COMPLETELY overlooked when reading Stormlight. Ok and another thing, the addition of Wit/Hoid to the later novels I think was suuuuuch a good choice. Cuz although he isn’t like a main, main character he is someone who is always there and he gives you hope. Like even when just the dung hits the fan and everything seems hopeless you always hold out that hope that Wit will be there and guide them and see them through. This hope that he and for the most part Future Jasnah provide just keeps you reading the books even when everything seems hopeless and I think it was a REALLY good tactic to add to the book and Cosmere as a whole. I GOT 2 MORE SO HOLD ON TO YOUR HATS AND GLASSES AND KEEP ALL ARMS AND LEGS INSIDE THE VEHICLE. My second to last rant has gotta be about the whole Merin/ Dalenar thing. So Merin leaves to go track down and hopefully save Aredor because Renarin said he was gonna die. This is something that not even Dalenar was willing to do for his son. Goes there, rides a freaking HIGHSTORM to get there, survives days on horseback, gets captured for no reason, survives days being imprisoned (something we know is characteristically difficult for Windrunners from both series'), finds a way to escape, kills a shardbearer despite being handcuffed, gets Dalenar’s last remaining son out of there to safety, listens to him about where to go, ends up liberating an ENTIRE country that had been enslaved for 30 years after WILLINGLY giving themselves up (not to mention oh I don’t know defeating 3 soldiers in full plate and blade and 2 with just blades all at the same time and winning all their blades and plates and then distributing it to the right people including the humble soldier who held his blade and made all of this possible in the first place) showing that the country had low desire to fight given that they had just handed themselves over 30 years ago, somehow gets all of them to support and even idolize him, gets one of them to even swear an oath to him proclaiming him as their lord, advises Renarin AGAINST seeking the full truth by diving too far into the Onyx despite not even knowing what it would entail (him going brain kaput apparently), and then bringing his dead body back anways, IN ADDITION, to getting them to overthrow the Vedens despite fears of retaliation and take their entire fleet to go LITERALLY save Dalenar and all of his people … and then just because his son is dead (after having gone against Merin’s advisement, which he obviously told Dalenar about right Merin big guy??? LIKE WOULDN’T MAKE ANY SENSE TO KEEP THAT AND EVERYTHING ELSE A SECRET YA BIG DUMBO) Dalenar can’t forgive Merin despite the fact that it isn’t his fault and he literally freed an entire nation and saved Dalenar and all of Alethkar and so Merin gives up his blade and title and goes to be hmmm lemme check … A FARMER AGAIN???? After finally figuring out what The Way of Kings meant and how to be a true noble lord freeing nations and getting men to swear an oath to you (not to mention he is one of the now two alive Knights Epellion since Renarin is brain smooshed [and maybe some other Onyxseers of Ahven’s and the Elinrah]). After all that he just gives it up to go be a farmer. Uhh WHAT?? He doesn’t even give a second thought to Kalenmar or whoever who has now sworn himself to him or the Thalankenwhatever army that basically worships him. AND at this point the blade didn’t even belong to Dalenar. He had won it twice already (once to protect Elhokar once to get it back from the Jailer) then won 5 more, freeing Thalankakakaihwhatever. HE was literally a lord like 7 times over the title didn’t even belong to Dalenar anymore and he had no claim to take it away. Maybe the Kholin namesake but Merin coulda just switched names especially since IDK, he saved the entire kingdom basically single-handedly and deserved at least his own 2nd rank city named after him if not after Kholin. Dalenar showed no gratefulness for the man who literally kept Alethkar from falling and existing no more and Merin showed no f-ing spine to be like you know what I earned this. BESIDES, he never even went against Dalenar’s order because he never actually fought in the Crossguard war, freaking Dalenar did himself. Like this whole arc was so damnation frustrating and pointless then. I thought (keeping with the non-standard arcs) that Dalenar would be like “Merin, I have no more sons or heirs and neither does the kingdom since the past queen thought it a good idea TO WALK BACK TO THE ARMY OF THE ENEMEY WITH THE KINDOM’S HEIR (uhhhh does anyone have any braincells here??) … since I was so fond of you Merin and both of my sons even grew to really respect you and consider you a friend, will you be my adopted son if not at the very least my heir?” This entire story was just like yo can anything good happen at all? Ok and my last complaint here has gotta be that ending. O. M. G. Taln is just over here fighting 1000s of guys, already having beaten 5 Shardbearers with no problems, literally using the last of his sanity to keep himself in it and keep fighting, only being able to focus on the cloaks even, and then here comes Jek woop-die-do lookie here is that a good guy up there, welp look where I just happen to be again *SHANK* oops my b homie were you trying to live there sorry about that now let me go off and hide in my cloak that I stole that also happens to be THE ONLY THING THAT TALN COULD SEE AT THE TIME CUZ MANS IS TRYING TO STAY SANE SMH and just walk off here completely unnoticed in an ENTIRE ARMY where I look nothing like anyone else on either side. HMMMMMMMM. Ok but like that ain’t even the most annoying part. Although that part just absolutely pissed me off to no end and made me want to throw my Kindle across the room and run over it repeatedly with a freight train (I’m not mad idk what you talking about not like Taln was the only truly honorable character in the book [besides Nelshaden who also freaking died]) the epilogue ending like seriously got me. Two more of the non-traitorous Heralds just show up there, watch Taln die (without having explained anything to him about why things were off this return the entire time he had been there but who obviously had to know of Taln’s existence the whole time cuz they followed him there), see the traitorous Herald, obviously interfering with political matters and HMMM maybe having helped get Taln killed IDK not like he’s a bad guy or anything, and then use the reasoning of “No, remember we decided to not search each other out and interfere" despite the fact that we are both here so we obviously searched each other out and the fact they found Taln so they obviously searched him out and the fact that the TRAITOR the one who literally killed their bond and ruined the Oathpact is obviously interfering. Like ARE. YOU. FREAKING. KIDDING. ME. They knew of his return since they followed him and tracked him (and spoke with him in Riemak but didn’t yknow… tell him that they were who he was looking for and going mad trying to find) and yet the ENTIRE time they didn’t do a single thing to help him in any way nor did they think to… idk.. EXPLAIN TO HIM THAT THEY HAD ALL ABANDONED HIM TO ETERNAL SUFFERING WHILE THEY JUST JOINED DALENAR IN WUSSINAR (I think if I keep using it, it’ll get even better) AND THEN WHEN HE HAPPENS TO MIRACULOUSLY COME BACK WITH A SUSPICIOUS WARNING OF THE RETURN OF THE KHOTHEN (BECAUSE IDK MAYBE SINCE HE SUFFERED AND WAS BROUGHT BACK IT MEANS SOMETHING) THEY DON’T DO A SINGLE damnation THING TO MAKE CONTACT, SAY SORRY, EXPLAIN, GET INFORMATION ABOUT WHY HE’S BACK???? NO THEY JUST SIT THERE, WATCH HIM DIE, SEE THE TRAITOR WHO NO DOUBT HAD A HAND IN KILLING HIM, AND THEN JUST WALK AWAY USING REASONING THAT WAS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE TRAITOR WAS DOING AT THE MOMENT. S. M. H. So anyway not that it really got me riled up or anything but that part of the story just felt really wrong to me. That and the way Ahven was just pure evil with not like a single redeeming quality or attempt to save the world were two things that just didn’t feel right at all. And this is obviously why these versions of the story stay in draft and the ones we see now are so meaningful to us. SO anyway, really, really enjoyed being able to read this version. It is amazing to see how different aspects of the world changed over time and all the time and effort the team had to put into the official series to turn them into the books we all love. I totally agree that this book was not as fulfilling as later ones in the series but at the same time the fact that we were able to see where it all started was really amazing. Okay, wow, that was a ride on level with Taravangian's high intelligence day interlude. Also, I love the word shank now, thank you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout_Fox Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 9 hours ago, Spren of Kindness said: Okay, wow, that was a ride on level with Taravangian's high intelligence day interlude. Also, I love the word shank now, thank you. Wow! Thank you so much! Man, I didn't even know if people would read it because it was so long. I am so happy that you took the time to and that you enjoyed it to that degree! I guess you could say this ride was a rolling success... (man all that and then I ruin it with a bad pun... *sigh*) And yes, shank, has quite an interesting sound to it. Glad I could get you two acquainted. Just as long as you make sure to stay away from the real deal, the word can be quite entertaining to use . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spren of Kindness Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 29 minutes ago, Scout_Fox said: Wow! Thank you so much! Man, I didn't even know if people would read it because it was so long. I am so happy that you took the time to and that you enjoyed it to that degree! I guess you could say this ride was a rolling success... (man all that and then I ruin it with a bad pun... *sigh*) And yes, shank, has quite an interesting sound to it. Glad I could get you two acquainted. Just as long as you make sure to stay away from the real deal, the word can be quite entertaining to use . Someone in my novel is totally getting shanked now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout_Fox Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, Spren of Kindness said: Someone in my novel is totally getting shanked now. Oh dear, oh dear. Someone evil I hope... right?? And just as an afterthought I don't happen to be in that book do I? Just... checking 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spren of Kindness Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 1 minute ago, Scout_Fox said: Oh dear, oh dear. Someone evil I hope... right?? And just as an afterthought I don't happen to be in that book do I? Just... checking Probably evil. I honestly don't know. And you're not there, don't worry. I don't use real people in stories. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout_Fox Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Spren of Kindness said: Probably evil. I honestly don't know. And you're not there, don't worry. I don't use real people in stories. Lol good, good then, phew (jk jk I getchu, better to let it exist in its own world then bring it down by tying it to people of the real world, I like that). And while I was thinking evil, it could also be quite a clever revenge plot against a good guy. Either way I am sure the shankiness is in good hands with you. Lmk when that part gets written (only if you want to) would love to see how shankified it gets Edited August 18, 2020 by Scout_Fox 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 Taln was the star of this book, I loved both his character and the teasing hints of lore and past events he was constantly dropping. Everyone else in the story came off as needlessly dense for not being willing to entertain the possibility that he was a herald. Incredible warrior, had a shardblade, was a male fully literate in reading and writing, knew about a secret door (buried under a layer of dust!) in the capital, navigated the dark caverns nobody knew about, located a legendary stash of 9 uniquely shaped honorblades in a lost temple buried under an enormous accumulation of crem, makes references to ancient events that wouldn't be impossible to cross-reference for accuracy (as they have books written in previous Epochs in this timeline). Jasnah was an interesting character to read, and I enjoyed her budding romance with Taln and mutual conflicts between duty and personal desires of happiness. She came across as kind of a dumb-dumb though. She's constantly getting outsmarted by people around her, and her supposed tactical brilliance is repeatedly told to us by other characters but never really shown. She also doesn't come across as especially heroic or caring of others. Her not-dead bodyguard tells us through Taln that "she cares" about others, but this scene in particular takes place almost immediately after her other close bodyguard is executed by Meridas on Gavilar's orders! Why exactly she doesn't completely despise Meridas after this point and continues to play diplomatic games with him reflects poorly on how much she really cares about the people of Alethi. She seems to mostly just care about Alethi as an abstract concept. Love all the changes that have been made to Jasnah in our canon timeline to correct a lot of these probably unintentional flaws! All our other POVs were varying degrees of bland and showed impressive skill on Brandon's part in how he modified them to their currently existing forms. Merin was an empty shell of a protagonist, and Kaladin has little relation to him outside of killing a shardbearer (Taln is really the character that Kaladin resembles the most from this story personality wise). Shinri managed to outbland even Merin, and mostly just gets captured a lot (with implication that her Elsecaller powers were going to be the key to bringing Taln back in future books). Dalenar was pretty dull, and it's clear that giving Dalinar a much darker past helped a lot in giving him a better arc of growth. Szeth now expressing more actual grief and sadness towards his victims makes him more complex and worthy of a little sympathy. Ahven was an utterly loathsome antagonist who commits cruelties to eliminate his own weakness of compassion, Taravangian's variable daily levels of compassion and avoiding crossing certain moral horizons (Taravangian compromises his word saving mission to save his family/city, Ahven kills his family to eliminate a source of weakness) make him more complex. Ultimately both characters are good object lessons of the remarkable evils that can be justified from a purely end justify the means morality. The lore in this book was extremely detailed, and I kind of loved that. I understand why Brandon keeps past events on dripfeed in a 10 book series, but it was a lot of fun reading this book just referencing important details about heralds and world lore everywhere. Taln even references specific epochs/desolations when recounting past events, letting you construct a pretty decent timeline. The nature of Heralds and their powers are given in a lot of details (including a hint of a great shameful secret in their past), a lot of passing references are made about what Heralds are skilled at certain tasks, the Heralds and humanity originating from another planet is pretty blatantly stated. Some random lore stuff that jumped out at me My complete guess for our undercover Hoid is Devon Lhale, the extremely chatty exposition dumping merchant with no other greater role in the story beyond telling Jek that Dalenar was coming to attack Elhokar and giving background on how the rest of the world viewed the Shin. The Heralds seem to have been 9 males and 1 female, glad we got more gender balance (although to be fair all non-Ash Heralds have had minimal presence in the story thus far). "Tell me, where are the others? Your brethren and sister?”" There's strong implications that the Heralds did something morally dubious in their past. Taln references the Heralds "not being what mankind presumed them to be" and references "burdens taken in the name of the greater good". Taln alone "doubted their course" regarding the "Capture of the Magnatah" which resulted in the formation of the Nahel bond. "The sign" that Heralds can manifest is a web of a thousand beautiful golden threads radiating out of from themselves, "each one a life". When Taln is yelling at the Almighty he says "We know the error of our decision. Must you prove it further?" I'm going to guess the Heralds' "Capture of the Magnatah" involved their binding/enslaving the elemental essences of the world. This is the source of their powers, directly linking them to the associated essence and force via the nahel bond. I think the powers themselves have a certain degree of sentience and will though (a bit like the spren), hence the capture of them being kept a secret. I also think that the mysterious gem-studded door under the capital leads to the location where the elemental spirits are bound. "The passage we went through wasn’t really meant to be an escape from the palace—it was built to . . . hide things."-Taln I'm basing this elements having sentience/will on how the Ahven's onyxseers are talking. They don't sound like children, their perspective and concerns might match well to a worldwide elemental force. "I see . . . chaos in the patterns. Our protectors have fallen. Someone must make ten kingdoms into one.” Balenmar/Ishar is the hidden mover of current events. It's on his word alone that the Alethi believe the Traitor was responsible for killing their King. His testimony also leads Elhokar to believe that other lord is openly conspiring treason and thus kicking off the civil war. He also gives Ahven a detailed map of the underground caverns (which Taln believes only he personally has ever explored), and implores Ahven to kill Jasnah and everyone with her (indicating that his true goal is to kill Taln). Presumably he also put the magic lock on the secret door leading to the caverns. As the founder of Vorinism, he was likely responsible both for the change in doctrine that the Heralds weren't coming back, as well as the founding of the splinter Elinrah faction under his clandestine control. In this timeline though the other Heralds regard Ishar as a traitor and assumed he was already dead, which is an interesting variation of his current version. The Oathpact seems to be a function of the 10 Kings/Oathgates, not necessarily the Heralds themselves. The power of the Knights Epellion are "tied to the royal families" per Taln. The Epoch Kingdoms going to war seemed to coincide with Epellion powers leaving the world during "The Silence", with the important exception of the Shin! The Shin still have onyxseers as practiced by their leaders the Holetatinal / The Stone Shamans - the very same future seers that declared Jek truthless and sent the Shin clans out to conquer the world on the false belief that a desolation had begun. I'm guessing the reason the Shin alone have retained Epellion powers, is because their Kingdom stayed true to the Oathpact. Other rulers also have onyxseers, but they all seem to be under 17 years old, while the Shin's are implied to be elders of society. 17 years ago seems to be the moment that some Khothen stealthily returned to the world, and in response Epellion powers started to be reborn into the world. Ahven tells Jek that the Stone Shaman leaders of the Shin (onyxseers themselves) joined Jarnah to conquer/unite the world because they believed the Stormshades were back. They gave up after failing to find any Khothen, but I think the Khothen were just being sneaky. “Was it?” Ahven prompted. “You sided with Jarnah, the Conqueror. You invaded the Kanaran Peninsulas, slaying thousands, capturing Thalenah, Vedenar, and Prallah. And you did it all upon the word of your shamans, who claimed the Return had come again, that the Stormshades had returned to Roshar.” “What happened at the end, assassin?” Ahven asked. “Did you find any demons to slay, or did you just find innocent soldiers? What of the claimed Return? Seventeen years have passed without sign of any monsters come to destroy humankind. Your shamans were wrong, but you listened to them anyway. You killed upon their word. Conquered, just as I do. What did your shamans see? Were their visions wrong? Or, perhaps, did they have a simpler motive? A desire to capture the lands to the east . . . an excuse.” 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted August 19, 2020 Report Share Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) Friendly reminder people, quoting a tenset paragraph post just to answer with one sentence clutters up the discussion something fierce. You can get the exact same effect by just pinging the poster and the rest of us don't have to scroll several pages down every time you wanted to say how much you enjoyed the read. On 8/14/2020 at 11:34 PM, Scout_Fox said: Ok first … HOW COULD YOU KILL TALN. But he's only Mostly Dead. Quote I mean they followed rule #1 of being a hero: ALWAYS KILL THE BAD GUY! Except for not doing a proper job of it with Jek at the end, which you know is going to end badly. It helps that he's not the internationally feared Assassin in White here but still, there's a Minion counterpart to the Evil Overlord handbook, doesn't anybody read it? Quote Jeksonsonsonsonsosnosnsonsosnwehadtoomanysonlettersattheprintingpress LOL, well put, have a virtual cookie! Quote Dalenar can’t forgive Merin despite the fact that it isn’t his fault and he literally freed an entire nation and saved Dalenar and all of Alethkar and so Merin gives up his blade and title and goes to be hmmm lemme check … A FARMER AGAIN??? Yeah, I wasn't fond of the ending either but I can imagine where Brandon was going for it. The thing that's emphasized is that Dalenar knows he can't reward Merin enough for everything he did but he also doesn't know if he can forgive him so it's not like Dalenar's not aware. And it's not him who demands Merin give up his Blade and title, Merin does it by choice because he thinks honor demands it. I think that decision kind of foreshadows Dalinar giving up Oathbringer at the end of WoK and would lead to some serious soul-searching on Merin's part before eventually returning. Just like I don't think that Taln would have stayed dead or Renarin stayed comatose, it's just one of those things we'll never see because the Prime continuity ends right there. And I'm pretty sure Dalenar would hold right onto that Blade and be ready to give it back to Merin if and when he returned. Quote “Merin, I have no more sons or heirs and neither does the kingdom since the past queen thought it a good idea TO WALK BACK TO THE ARMY OF THE ENEMEY WITH THE KINDOM’S HEIR (uhhhh does anyone have any braincells here??) … since I was so fond of you Merin and both of my sons even grew to really respect you and consider you a friend, will you be my adopted son if not at the very least my heir?” This entire story was just like yo can anything good happen at all? It was a bloody stupid thing of the queen to do but I can cut her a little slack because Ahven being a complete sociopath seems to have caught just about everyone by surprise and she (rightly or wrongly) assumed she'd be safer with her brother than with her husband who she figured would be killed in short order one way or another. And that was still less stupid than Aesudan thinking 'why yes, I will bond myself to an immortal demigod-spren, nothing can go wrong with this!'. But yes, Dalenar appealing to the realm's need for some stability and him needing an heir would have made a lot of sense. The best I can come up with is that Merin mentioned the H-word and that shut down all further discourse. But like I said, I expect that situation wouldn't have lasted beyond some part of the next book in any case. Quote (without having explained anything to him about why things were off this return the entire time he had been there but who obviously had to know of Taln’s existence the whole time cuz they followed him there), The fact that they were worried about Taln's body sublimating (thus publicly proving that he was a Herald) suggests that they have a reason to keep that fact a secret and perhaps not letting Taln know for sure ties in with that. Too many unanswered questions and too many differences to be sure that what we know from SA applies to Prime vis a vis what Taln alone dying in the last reincarnation cycle meant. Mind you, Brandon's Prime works tend to end with book-tossing finales where you'd probably be happier if the last paragraph or two just vanished into thin air instead of teasing at sequels that will never exist. 22 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said: There's strong implications that the Heralds did something morally dubious in their past. Taln references the Heralds "not being what mankind presumed them to be" and references "burdens taken in the name of the greater good". "The sign" that Heralds can manifest is a web of a thousand beautiful golden threads radiating out of from themselves, "each one a life". I imagine that at least some of this is a reference to what would become the Ashyn exodus in SA and the Oathpact (the 'burdens taken up' part anyways but yeah, there's definitely more going on here than we know. I thought I saw a reference somewhere that the Sign's golden threads would have pointed to anyone with Stonewarding powers but upon rereading it, now I'm not so sure. The line is "He reflexively reached out to the Nahel bond within him, preparing to draw upon the life energy of the thousands who were linked to his Soul Tone. And found nothing. He cursed quietly. There would be no healings this Return until he discovered what had happened to his powers.". So it could be that he's drawing a tiny bit of power from everyone linked to him (and I assumed Stonewards because of how Soul Tones seem to operate) or it could be something more sinister. Likewise while spren aren't a thing in Prime it's clear that something is up with Shardblades since Taln thinks it's bad enough that they exist and would be worse if mankind learned the real power locked within them, whatever that is. Also he's surprised they aren't still being made which is interesting. Quote I'm going to guess the Heralds' "Capture of the Magnatah" involved their binding/enslaving the elemental essences of the world. This is the source of their powers, directly linking them to the associated essence and force via the nahel bond. I think the powers themselves have a certain degree of sentience and will though (a bit like the spren), hence the capture of them being kept a secret. I also think that the mysterious gem-studded door under the capital leads to the location where the elemental spirits are bound. "The passage we went through wasn’t really meant to be an escape from the palace—it was built to . . . hide things."-Taln Oooh, that's a neat thought. I like it! Quote 17 years ago seems to be the moment that some Khothen stealthily returned to the world, and in response Epellion powers started to be reborn into the world. Ahven tells Jek that the Stone Shaman leaders of the Shin (onyxseers themselves) joined Jarnah to conquer/unite the world because they believed the Stormshades were back. They gave up after failing to find any Khothen, but I think the Khothen were just being sneaky. Yeah, I spotted that too and there's no way it's a coincidence that the war and the return of old magics happened in exactly the same year. I like the theory that Vasher is actually Jarnah and he knows (or thinks he knows) something really important that prompted his war of conquest and told Dalenar, who spared him just in case Jarnah turned out to be right. Edited August 19, 2020 by Weltall 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isilel Posted August 20, 2020 Report Share Posted August 20, 2020 13 hours ago, Weltall said: Yeah, I spotted that too and there's no way it's a coincidence that the war and the return of old magics happened in exactly the same year. I like the theory that Vasher is actually Jarnah and he knows (or thinks he knows) something really important that prompted his war of conquest and told Dalenar, who spared him just in case Jarnah turned out to be right. I asked Sanderson about it on reddit and, unfortunately, he doesn't remember if this was the case... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted August 20, 2020 Report Share Posted August 20, 2020 (edited) Along with some of the other interesting unanswered questions it seems, alas. But then it was a rather long time ago and he rewrote so much of it that we can hardly blame him if he's forgotten some of the details. Especially the seventeen years thing since the magic has been so heavily reworked that whatever he did for Prime is likely to be mostly irrelevant now. Edited August 20, 2020 by Weltall 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleWorldsinger Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 A lot of characters would hate their WOK Prime versions. DALINAR: 'Tyrantbane'? ::facepalm:: KALADIN: ::mutters:: I'll kick Merin's storming Shard-bearing chull... SZETH: Jek? Like that green chicken that could say its name? SHALLAN: I'm just- very glad I'm not Shinri. ::Shudders, and notices she's been picking a thread loose from her sleeve:: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted September 8, 2020 Report Share Posted September 8, 2020 And don't forget Adolin: I survived to the end of the book! I've survived to the ends of two more books! I'm storming amazing! And I suspect Elhokar would be pretty happy not to go out like his Prime counterpart too, come to think of it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Wheeler Posted January 8, 2021 Report Share Posted January 8, 2021 (edited) I finally finished this. It was a very interesting look at what might have been. WOW that book was dark! Stormlight gets dark at some points, but... it's there for contrast. All the darkness that characters have to wade through sets it up so that when they overcome their problems and get to shine, they shine all the brighter because of it. Here, it's just bleak. Everyone just ends up losing and falling apart, and I'm very glad Brandon didn't end up going this way for SA. Also, it was far less epic in scope. Everyone mentions there not being any spren, but it was more than that. You just sort of get the sense that everything is... lesser. The entirety of human history on Roshar was only 4000 years here; in SA that's just how long they've had since the Desolations stopped happening. Windrunners being some sort of second-rate Airbender rather than the awesomeness Bridge Four gets to become. Highstorms being something that would make you miserable if you're caught out in one, rather than being considered a certain death sentence, and so on. The things I did like: Jasnah. She was a much more interesting character in this, having to struggle with real dilemmas and deal with real emotions. In SA, Jasnah is a bizarre blend of Mary Sue and homicidal psychopath that's just really offputting and hard to relate to. I wish this Jasnah had made it into Stormlight. Onyxeers. Oathbringer really threw me for a loop when we found out that Renarin's visions were related to his spren being corrupted. It always felt obvious, from the way the history was discussed in the first book and especially by the end of the second when we found out about Renarin being a Truthwatcher, that the whole "there are no prophecies and foretelling the future is evil" thing came about as a result of the Recreance and the Vorin church's subsequent slide into general corruption and apostasy, so having Renarin's powers in that regard suddenly turn out to be of Odium in the third book was really jarring! It's nice to see a Roshar where future sight was part of the plan all along. Taln. Just... everything about Taln. I really hope therapist!Kaladin can help him in book 5 so we can get this guy in Stormlight, because so far Mr. Cata-talnic has been utterly useless to the plot. Shardblades shaping themselves to suit their wielders. And just the way that they were treated as generally rare, but not epically rare. Ever since that one vision Dalinar has, everyone's been asking, "where are all the Shardblades?!?" Now we have our answer: they're on Roshar Prime! A minor detail, but we finally get an in-universe answer to the question of why they use gemstones rather than gold and silver for money on Roshar: because Awakening/soulcasting can create gold and silver, but it can't create polestones. So yeah. This was an interesting book, but overall I'm glad that we got the Roshar we did, rather than this one. Edited January 8, 2021 by Mason Wheeler 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 On 1/8/2021 at 7:57 AM, Mason Wheeler said: Jasnah. She was a much more interesting character in this, having to struggle with real dilemmas and deal with real emotions. In SA, Jasnah is a bizarre blend of Mary Sue and homicidal psychopath that's just really offputting and hard to relate to. I wish this Jasnah had made it into Stormlight. I'm guessing a large part of this is due to her being a background character whom most of the cast looks up to. Brandon plans on her being a or perhaps the main character of the back half, so I imagine we'll see much more there. On 1/8/2021 at 7:57 AM, Mason Wheeler said: Taln. Just... everything about Taln. I really hope therapist!Kaladin can help him in book 5 so we can get this guy in Stormlight, because so far Mr. Cata-talnic has been utterly useless to the plot. I'm so sad we'll be missing a lot of fun scenes like the library scene because they just won't work in the current canon. Taln was fun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Wheeler Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: I'm guessing a large part of this is due to her being a background character whom most of the cast looks up to. Brandon plans on her being a or perhaps the main character of the back half, so I imagine we'll see much more there. Ugh, I hope not! Where did you hear that? I'd always heard that the back half was going to focus much more heavily on the Heralds and emphasize the modern Rosharans a lot less. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Mason Wheeler said: Ugh, I hope not! Where did you hear that? I'd always heard that the back half was going to focus much more heavily on the Heralds and emphasize the modern Rosharans a lot less. One of the RoW preview chapter annotations: Quote ...I’ve avoided talking too much about Jasnah as a general rule, since I plan her to be a major (perhaps the major) character of the back five books, and so it’s best to keep focus off her for now. There will be plenty of time for discussions about her later... Rhythm of War Annotations (Nov. 2, 2020) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.