Chaos

Syl Interlude Discussion

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I would guess Kaladin is just slipping into a periodic depressed mood.  Not "full" depressed, but what was previously referred to as dysthymic, at risk of becoming full depressed if he doesn't self-care, which Dalinar is trying to help him do.  The fact he is sleeping late through a highstorm makes me think so.  Previously we've seen Kaladin is an early riser who starts the day with physical exercise, at least when his mood is good.  If he was haunted by some recent trauma I'd expect more restless insomnia (like he was during their trip through Shadesmar) and Syl being more acutely worried about his mental state.

I could certainly be wrong, but one of the things that makes persistent depressive disorder such a burden is that it is often triggered by absolutely no inciting event.  You feel bad for no reason, and then you feel guilty about feeling bad for reason.

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6 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I would guess Kaladin is just slipping into a periodic depressed mood.  Not "full" depressed, but what was previously referred to as dysthymic, at risk of becoming full depressed if he doesn't self-care, which Dalinar is trying to help him do.  The fact he is sleeping late through a highstorm makes me think so.  Previously we've seen Kaladin is an early riser who starts the day with physical exercise, at least when his mood is good.  If he was haunted by some recent trauma I'd expect more restless insomnia (like he was during their trip through Shadesmar) and Syl being more acutely worried about his mental state.

I could certainly be wrong, but one of the things that makes persistent depressive disorder such a burden is that it is often triggered by absolutely no inciting event.  You feel bad for no reason, and then you feel guilty about feeling bad for reason.

Yeah, Kaladin is far more prone to depressive episodes than the average person.

I do think the particular pressures he's been under are not helping. His "why do I have to pick side?" dilemma has not been resolved and he's been trying to muddle through anyways. Syl says "He was stuck, doing what he felt he had to, but getting darker all the time."

I interpret that to mean he's been on the fighting against the Singers during the 1 year skip, killing them. He does it because he wants to protect all the humans he's close to, but he hates it and feels bad about himself for doing it. 

Even in tWoK, after he and Dalinar save each other they are negotiating terms of service. Kaladin says he killed a lot of Parshendi today and he did not like it. He requests that his men be used as bodyguards and to patrol the trade routes instead of fight on the front lines. 

Sounds like in RoW Dalinar will see that Kaladin needs a break from the killing. 

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This was a very interesting preview. I loved the intimate view of how different spren might see themselves philosophically. Hoping for many more spren POVs in book four!

That conversation with Dalinar had some especially juicy bits. There were Bondsmiths on Ashyn?!

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*Tinfoil Hats On*
Brandon loves to twist the magic systems (as evidenced by Mistborn Era 2). 

The Stormfather and Syl keep reinforcing that she is special and not like other Honorspren. 

Kaladin at the same time is the soldier but also the surgeon. Perhaps the reason Syl was drawn to him was due to this duality? 

Perhaps the Stormfather is her Father but the Nightwatcher is her Mother as well. Making her half cultivation spren in addition to honor spren. 

As such, Kaladin could be the first (maybe only) dual Order Knight Radiant. His soldier self is a Windrunner but his surgeon is an Edgedancer. 

If Kaladin began swearing a second set of ideals “I will remember those who have been forgotten” and “I will listen to those who have been ignored”, Syl and Kal could get a second set of surges. Giving Kal progression in addition  gravitation seems like a right fit if he were to take a secondary order. 

Not to mention this would make Syl a child of the two bondsmith spren who are also closely connected with the Rosharan Shards as well. 
 

Thoughts?

*Tinfoil Hats Off*

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Also Dalinar’s powers sound similar to Spren Hemalurgy... Just saying

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I got 2 impressions from reading this chapter.  One, if Syl is accurate in her Bondsmith description,  and we have been given no reason to believe she is wrong,  then Ishar was and is incredibly OP.  Two, whatever Shard or Shards granted Ishar such a wide range of power was incredibly reckless.  I mean it grants a human the power to direct Gods. Power creep in the worse way.  But if the Shards in system didn't grant these powers,  could he perhaps have tapped into something left over from Adonalasium? 

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On 7/17/2020 at 10:13 PM, Red Windrunner said:

*Tinfoil Hats On*
Brandon loves to twist the magic systems (as evidenced by Mistborn Era 2). 

The Stormfather and Syl keep reinforcing that she is special and not like other Honorspren. 

Kaladin at the same time is the soldier but also the surgeon. Perhaps the reason Syl was drawn to him was due to this duality? 

Perhaps the Stormfather is her Father but the Nightwatcher is her Mother as well. Making her half cultivation spren in addition to honor spren. 

As such, Kaladin could be the first (maybe only) dual Order Knight Radiant. His soldier self is a Windrunner but his surgeon is an Edgedancer. 

If Kaladin began swearing a second set of ideals “I will remember those who have been forgotten” and “I will listen to those who have been ignored”, Syl and Kal could get a second set of surges. Giving Kal progression in addition  gravitation seems like a right fit if he were to take a secondary order. 

Not to mention this would make Syl a child of the two bondsmith spren who are also closely connected with the Rosharan Shards as well. 
 

Thoughts?

*Tinfoil Hats Off*

Recent WOB from Comic-Con:

Questioner

If a Radiant uses an Honorblade or binds a second spren, could they get new abilities/ resonances by having access to Surges that aren't usually combined?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they can.

 

Are we going to see Kaladin bond a cultivation spren? Or will Syl end up being part cultivationspren like I’ve theorized? 
 

Kaladin even takes a second in the comic-con reading to wish for a nearby Edgedancer to assist in a certain scenario. 

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On 7/7/2020 at 9:04 AM, Ciridae said:

That was a really fun chapter, I love her talk with Dalinar at the end. Interesting what she said about Bondsmiths, a Bondsmith made the Heralds immortal? And a Bondsmith bound other surges and brought people to Roshar, presumably from Ashyn. That’s incredibly cool. So where did people get Bondsmith powers from before there were Honorblades and before they could bond one of the Siblings? Also, the implication that Dalinar can increase the strength of a Nahel bond. What would that mean for the human and spren? We know that the bond can be broken before the fifth ideal is spoken, could this do the same? Or would it skip ideals? 

It ended for me when she entered the highstorm where can I find the rest.

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3 hours ago, Kalaksbreath said:

It ended for me when she entered the highstorm where can I find the rest.

At the bottom of the email, there should be something that says, "View full message" or something similar. Click that.

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Just now, Cheat Commando said:

At the bottom of the email, there should be something that says, "View full message" or something similar. Click that.

yeah I went back to the email and saw that thanks.

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Posted (edited)

On 7/10/2020 at 1:32 PM, Karger said:

In a direct mano a mano confrontation I am not sure that Dalinar's side has anyone better then Kaladin in open combat except maybe Szeth.

Taln, Ash, other Heralds? We do not know what capabilities they have, 
I sometimes think that there will never actually be a battle of champions, Odium's plans for that failed so he will not let himself get caught in that. 
I am thinking it will be more likely Szeth, and to do so he will hold all of the Honor Blades to do so. 

 

Edited by FollowYourMuse
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8 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

Taln, Ash, other Heralds? We do not know what capabilities they have, 

Physically they are better but I don't think they are in good enough shape mentally.

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On 7/7/2020 at 2:01 PM, _edgedancer said:

This was a great chapter, what a lovely surprise to get a spren viewpoint! A couple thoughts. 

1. Everyone here and on Discord seems sort of put-off by Plate being made up of lesser spren. I am not sure why, that always seemed very well-foreshadowed to me, and it makes sense in my head.. Oh well. I, for one, am happy that we finally got confirmation of that. 

2. Man so much Bondsmith stuff. A Bondsmith (or someone with the same powers) brought over the people from Ashyn, discovered the Nahel bond, etc. This messes with the already-messy First Desolation timetable a lot, I think. 

3. Kaladin as a surgeon again.... Hmm. I really hope he finds his stride and gets less mopey this book. I am also wondering why Urithiru needs very many surgeons when they have people with Regrowth like Lift and Renarin? In any case, I hope that the Windrunners can still fulfill their typical purpose as scouts and such even with Kaladin taking his doctor sabbatical, or whatever this turns out to be. 

Just a theory, but... I suspect Cosmere healing does not go well with pregnancy. My perfect self does not include being pregnant, and I’ve never viewed my babies as part of my body, but as a separate being I’m nurturing.


So going by that, I suspect Cosmere healing may abort early pregnancies and cause issues with later ones. (The difference, btw, is caused by an older fetus having a cognitive self, which would occur once brain development got far enough. This has ZERO to do with the real world, and real world issues.) Ergo, Cosmere healing is worse than useless when it comes to pregnancy...

Oh, and it explains why Shallan hasn’t gotten pregnant - she has, but Stormlight keeps ‘healing’ her pregnancy by terminating it, since her ideal self is not pregnant. This happens within days of the pregnancy beginning, so no one realizes. (And yes, she should have gotten pregnant. Most women get pregnant within a year of regular sexual activity (which we can presume is happening) provided no birth control or reproductive issues. Pre-birth control, women got pregnant a lot.)

So... you need Obstetricians. Possibly virologists too, (viruses seem rather resistant to Cosmere healing) but that would probably be a big one.

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Posted (edited)

On 08/07/2020 at 3:48 AM, Q10fanatic said:

We (or at least I) always thought that Syl was a decent baseline for other Honorspren. That her excitability and the parallels to windspren would be present in other Honorspren. This excerpt implies that she is different somehow. This is so cool, it tells us that spren have much more personality variation than we could prove before. We knew that Syl was different from the Honorspren captain in the Cognitive Realm, but we didn't know if we could extrapolate from that.

Teft's spren and Lopen's spren Nako seemed to have very different personalities at the end of OB.

The captain of the Honor spren ship also had a very different personality.

Edited by Wax
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On 30/08/2020 at 1:57 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The difference, btw, is caused by an older fetus having a cognitive self, which would occur once brain development got far enough.

I wouldn't have thought of the implication that, before a certain level of development, Cosmere magic would consider a fetus part of the mother and not a seperate being. This does make a lot of sense, and you could probably use this to estimate how certain individuals in the Cosmere would view the abortion debates. To them, there is a very obvious and clear distinction of when they become a separate individual.

On 30/08/2020 at 1:57 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Oh, and it explains why Shallan hasn’t gotten pregnant - she has, but Stormlight keeps ‘healing’ her pregnancy by terminating it, since her ideal self is not pregnant.

This would line up quite well with the impression many people have of her not being ready for a child, and so her cognitive ideal would reflect that, causing her to have what would amount to stormlight contraceptives. There may be a scene in book where Adolin and Shallan seek counselling about the apparent infertility, and someone who has a bit more knowledge of how stormlight healing works (maybe Navani or Dalinar?) puts two and two together and can therefore raise the theological debate of how moral that is.

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On 8/31/2020 at 2:20 AM, Realmatic Shadow said:

I wouldn't have thought of the implication that, before a certain level of development, Cosmere magic would consider a fetus part of the mother and not a seperate being. This does make a lot of sense, and you could probably use this to estimate how certain individuals in the Cosmere would view the abortion debates. To them, there is a very obvious and clear distinction of when they become a separate individual.

This would line up quite well with the impression many people have of her not being ready for a child, and so her cognitive ideal would reflect that, causing her to have what would amount to stormlight contraceptives. There may be a scene in book where Adolin and Shallan seek counselling about the apparent infertility, and someone who has a bit more knowledge of how stormlight healing works (maybe Navani or Dalinar?) puts two and two together and can therefore raise the theological debate of how moral that is.

No woman I know of views pregnancy as her natural state. Capable of conceiving, yes (which probably effects menopause!) Cosmere Magic would ‘heal’ a pregnancy regardless of the parent’s readiness or desire.

 

Yeah, I definitely think the development of a fetus’ cognitive self would impact the abortion debate. Personally, I think it would be awesome to watch that self develop. At a certain point I think healing could force an early birth, as the mother’s ideal self says ‘not pregnant’ and the child says ‘I exist.’

The real question is: when does the fetus get its own spirit web? Even more than a Cognitive self, that would determine existence in the Cosmere.

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14 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

No woman I know of views pregnancy as her natural state. Capable of conceiving, yes (which probably effects menopause!) Cosmere Magic would ‘heal’ a pregnancy regardless of the parent’s readiness or desire.

It might feel awkward sure but I don't think the human body considers the state somehow wrong. 

On 7/17/2020 at 10:13 PM, Red Windrunner said:

Not to mention this would make Syl a child of the two bondsmith spren who are also closely connected with the Rosharan Shards as well. 

Spren are not born like that normally.  Being created is more like being shaped to them.  It does not take too people.  Also even if two people were involved she would still be a regular honorspren unless they were specifically trying for something else.  According to Notum Syl was one of the 10 honorspren created by the stormfather.  No other parent required.

Edited by Karger
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On 9/2/2020 at 11:52 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

No woman I know of views pregnancy as her natural state. Capable of conceiving, yes (which probably effects menopause!) Cosmere Magic would ‘heal’ a pregnancy regardless of the parent’s readiness or desire.

Not until it happens, and then yes, and for the years you are having children, sometimes not being pregnant, (or nursing) feels odd. 

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Just now, FollowYourMuse said:

Not until it happens, and then yes, and for the years you are having children, sometimes not being pregnant, (or nursing) feels odd. 

I had four pregnancies in four years. Gave birth to three children, and nursed as much as I could. I never considered my ‘natural state’ to be pregnant or nursing, and I felt perfectly normal when I wasn’t.

My friends had similar experiences, and similar feelings on the subject. I’m not talking from inexperience...

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19 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I had four pregnancies in four years. Gave birth to three children, and nursed as much as I could. I never considered my ‘natural state’ to be pregnant or nursing, and I felt perfectly normal when I wasn’t.

My friends had similar experiences, and similar feelings on the subject. I’m not talking from inexperience...

Not inexperienced either.  I think that it can be either. My baby is 25 and still often in dreams I see myself as pregnant! 

Edited by FollowYourMuse
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Just now, FollowYourMuse said:

Neither am I, I think that it can be either. My baby is 25 and still often in dreams I see myself as pregnant! 

My youngest is 2... I wasn’t pregnant all that long ago. I’m in my childbirthing years. I dreamed about being pregnant when I was still a virgin. Doesn’t mean I’ve ever viewed myself as being pregnant, just capable of it.

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On 7/7/2020 at 6:14 PM, Chaos said:

By signing up for Brandon's newsletter you can get an exclusive RoW interlude, and it's a Syl interlude! Let's discuss it here.

EDIT: Please note this should stay exclusive to the newsletter, so no distribution of it, but know you can simply sign up for Brandon's newsletter on his website.

I'm signed up to the newsletter, but I haven't  gotten it

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4 hours ago, LifeBeforeDeath said:

I'm signed up to the newsletter, but I haven't  gotten it

It's from an older newsletter, as he sent out a few since. Usually older ones are linked in the newsletter, but I don't know. It was in there at the time.

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