Syl Interlude Discussion

[Cheat Commando]

@joesleepsalot

I applaud you.

[Harbour]

8 hours ago, joesleepsalot said:

Since everyone here is sharing opinions lol.... I care absolutely zero how cliche it is for Kaladin to be the predictable hero: if he is NOT the chosen one/hero I’m gonna be pretty annoyed. We’ve all got real lives and real life business to attend to, kids, and careers——these are fiction books and having the time to read them is frankly a luxury. Thus...give Adolin powers (if I wanted ordinary Powerless characters I’d just read any other book) and make Kaladin the hero that we’ve all been groomed to expect.... after all, we’ve waited years and years for him to catch a break. If someone else gets elevated to that role I’m gonna probably quit reading 

Big TRUE!

I hope and believe Brandon isnt from those writers who think that subversion of expectation on itself is a good thing. Subversion sucks if done wrong.

Make Kaladin not a hero makes no sense with all that build up and WILL feel like a spit in the face. He must be a hero with glorious and epic ending.

[dgreene196]

1 hour ago, Harbour said:

Big TRUE!

I hope and believe Brandon isnt from those writers who think that subversion of expectation on itself is a good thing. Subversion sucks if done wrong.

Make Kaladin not a hero makes no sense with all that build up and WILL feel like a spit in the face. He must be a hero with glorious and epic ending.

Any twists that come along have likely been foreshadowed, and we'll spend years rereading trying to find all the examples.

I'm rereading The Way of Kings all the way through for the first time in forever (maybe ever?).  When Shallan is petitioning to be Jasnah's ward for the 3rd time (2nd in the Palanaeum), at one point, Jasnah subtly twists her head and pauses for a moment.  It's a weird description in this book.  However, after reading Oathbringer, it's almost certainly a moment where Ivory has miniaturized himself on her shoulder and talks to her.  Which we wouldn't know could happen until, what, 7 years later?

Of course, now, in the back-half of Stormlight, I hope some of the flashback scenes include new perspectives and information on some of the scenes we've seen in the early books.  What does Ivory think about Shallan right from the beginning?  All the times Jezrien/Ahu was speaking gibberish, was he actually giving important advice in Dawnchant? [Probably not to the 2nd point].

[+Child of Hodor]

19 hours ago, Q10fanatic said:

You know, I hadn't even thought about the focus on the Heralds in the back half. That's a good point.

I've really disregarded Ishar as a character before now, I think because he's never been on camera. But this info dump makes me think that Ishar is continually being brought up for some reason. Maybe we'll finally get a pov and we'll start to see what all the fuss is about.

I'm kind of expecting Ishar to show up in person in book 4. He spoke to Dalinar through spanreed in OB and he's been brought up a lot. Both Ash and Nale mention him in OB and how he's the only one still sane, which is unlikely to be accurate. The Stormfather ID'd him and his location in the modern day in OB. 

 

19 hours ago, Isilel said:

You know, this is a great idea! It is widely believed  that Odium will change Vessels in book 5 and I was hard-pressed to envision how having some newb acsend to it wouldn't severely undercut the sense of danger in the back half. Also, having the Heralds be the focus of the back half in such a situation seemed a very odd decision to me, since all this history should have become largely irrelevant. But Ishar as Odium? A man who already knows so much and wielded such power? That would be scary and exciting. Brilliant!

Maybe we could even have our first villanious dual-Shard if he picked up Honor too, somehow... Unlike Rayze he needn't be into purity of Intent.

Ishar would be a good Odium / Villain for the back half. Especially if he has more of a an onscreen presence in the last two books to build him up more. Otherwise it would be like Vedel becoming Odium out of nowhere.  Ishar has declared himself godking or whatever so he does now think of himself in those terms, aspiring to divinity. According to the Stormfather he screams at him as if he's Honor blaming him for what happened to the Heralds. He thinks he would do a better job as god. 

19 hours ago, agrabes said:

Yeah, a little predictable but not necessarily bad, repetitive or boring to me.  Kaladin has saved the day at the last minute twice and failed to save the day at the last minute twice.  But each time was different and interesting.  I want the one who saves the day to be a character I like.  So if it's not Kaladin, Shallan, or Dalinar I'll be a little disappointed.  They are the main characters of the front 5 and also my favorite characters.  Venli would be an interesting dark horse choice if she develops enough power in the last two books.  Honestly, I've never been a fan of Szeth or his mindset.  To me, he's not worthy of being the champion at least as he is now.    But, that's just me.

I honestly would be fine with Kaladin saving the day. It's just that it's Brandon, so I have learned to look for the subversion, but doing it straightforward would subvert my Brandon expectations! 

One thing I've thought for a long time is that Kaladin would make a good Odium vessel. I don't know that it will happen at all much less in book 5. Kaladin switching from hero to antagonist would be interesting, but I feel like Lopen or Rock could be like "Hey man, cut it out with that stuff" and he'd not want to hurt his friends, so he'd go elsewhere. Kaladin is a softy when it comes to his friends and in the early days after ascension he wouldn't be totally subsumed by his Shard. 

Seriously though, much of Kaladin's arc has been about controlling his hatred. "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right."  He understands pain ("I'm the only god who does") and the hate it causes. He's learned to reign it in. I think it would be especially good if Syl goes with him when he ascends. Having a tiny bit of Honor joined with his soul would help.  

Edited July 11, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Sliver of Pie]

One of the biggest unresolved issues Kaladin has is his father's disappointment. In November we got a Lirin chapter in occupied Hearthstone with Kaladin being discovered in the line of refugees. Now in an interlude we have a Kaladin seemingly moving away from fighting. I'm guessing the confrontation in Hearthstone goes poorly.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Sliver of Pie
Typo

[Karger]

I think this will probably be Kaladin's regression arc.  He will travel a lot(perhaps delivering supplies like soulcasters and gemstones) to various parts of roshar and talk to radiants, ordinary people, and others from his past(I am thinking Tarah and sergeant Hav).  He will look for answers but I doubt he will find any.  Eventually this will prompt him to ask the right question and he will swear his ideal and then do what he needs to.

[USS bridge four]

57 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think this will probably be Kaladin's regression arc.  He will travel a lot(perhaps delivering supplies like soulcasters and gemstones) to various parts of roshar and talk to radiants, ordinary people, and others from his past(I am thinking Tarah and sergeant Hav).  He will look for answers but I doubt he will find any.  Eventually this will prompt him to ask the right question and he will swear his ideal and then do what he needs to.

Yeah and I personally think he'll swear the ideal at the end of part 3. 

[Use the Falchion]

Just a random thought based on nothing, but would it have been possible for Nohadon to be the one to bind the Heralds to the Oathpact, as well as lead them out of Braize? Things sort of line up, right? He was a Surgebinder before the KR were formed, and it someone connected to Dalinar (probably via the Spiritual Realm).Him bringing humans to Roshar and/or helping forge the Oathpact does give Nohadon a weird place with the Knights as a whole outside of being a Knight himself or being a Radiant. 

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Just a random thought based on nothing, but would it have been possible for Nohadon to be the one to bind the Heralds to the Oathpact, as well as lead them out of Braize?

No. 

3 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Things sort of line up, right? He was a Surgebinder before the KR were formed

Not exactly.  The Heralds predate the spren bonding according to the Stormfather.  Also we saw that he lived through a desolation in Dalinar's visions.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Karger

[+Oltux72]

19 hours ago, Sliver of Pie said:

One of the biggest unresolved issues Kaladin has is his father's disappointment. In November we got a Lirin chapter in occupied Hearthstone with Kaladin being discovered in the line of refugees. Now in an interlude we have a Kaladin seemingly moving away from fighting.

Not on his own initiative. He is ordered to. Dalinar is monitoring his officers and if one needs a break, reassigns them.

19 hours ago, Sliver of Pie said:

I'm guessing the confrontation in Hearthstone goes poorly.

Do we know the temporal sequence of these events?

[Chiberty]

19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Do we know the temporal sequence of these events?

The Hearthstone scene starts in chapter 1. The interludes are between parts.

[Use the Falchion]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

The Heralds predate the spren bonding according to the Stormfather.

So do Surgebinders and the Heralds clearly weren't the ONLY people who came over. But yeah, my idea was wrong - the Knights Radiant had not be officially founded, but the Nahel bond was discovered and used. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted!

[Sliver of Pie]

19 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Do we know the temporal sequence of these events?

The Lirin chapter I believe has been called chapter 1 and the Syl chapter is an interlude, so I put the Lirin chapter 1st chronologically in my head

[+Oltux72]

27 minutes ago, Sliver of Pie said:

The Lirin chapter I believe has been called chapter 1 and the Syl chapter is an interlude, so I put the Lirin chapter 1st chronologically in my head

But is that interlude necessarily in the book's present?

[Use the Falchion]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But is that interlude necessarily in the book's present?

Aren't most? I'm a little confused by your question. Unless Brandon switches up where the Interludes go (which while not unimaginable, would be pretty jarring), Lirin's chapter happens before Syl's. In that context, what does "present" matter? Lirin's chapter is "present" when we are at Chapter 1, and Syl's is "present" during the interlude, wherever in the book that takes place. Interludes haven't been flashbacks yet, and again, while it's not unimaginable that some interludes could contain flashbacks, I doubt they will here. 

Or is there part of the question I'm missing. I feel like I'm jumping into conversation halfway through it lol. 

[+Oltux72]

2 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Interludes haven't been flashbacks yet, and again, while it's not unimaginable that some interludes could contain flashbacks, I doubt they will here.

How sure are we of that? The interludes of Axies for example could have been years ago, AFAICT.

[Use the Falchion]

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

How sure are we of that? The interludes of Axies for example could have been years ago, AFAICT.

Possible, but unlikely. In Chapter 53 of Oathbringer, Jochi, one of Jasnah's pen-pals wrote "And here I thought my news about a sighting of Axies the Collector was interesting." 

While this could refer to a different sighting of Axies, I honestly doubt it. When things happen in the past, characters like to either mention them or flash back to them in specific cases. Axies is mentioned in Lift's interlude in WoR, but it's clear that those events happened a while back. The sighting of Axies in Oathbringer is relatively recent; and given that The Way of Kings is only a year removed from Oathbringer at most, I'd say that the Axies interlude didn't take place years ago. 

Overall, I don't dismiss the idea of Interludes happening before Chapter 1, but I do doubt Syl's will do that. Sanderson has talked about how the book has a sort of Cold Open, and Lirin's chapter feeds straight into that. I'm not going to say whether or not the attack in Hearthstone was successful or not, but between that chapter and the interlude, Dalinar noticed something in Kaladin that made him switch the Windrunner out of active duty. 

 

[Jofwu]

There's not always clear evidence that interludes happen strictly in chronological order with everything else. Well, some definitely aren't. I don't think Rysn's fit with the overall timeline of the first three books, implying her first interlude or two happened before the main story events. Szeth's TWoK interludes didn't all happen within the timespan of TWoK if I'm not mistaken. For interludes like Baxil and Ym and Ishikk... We can't really say if they happened RIGHT between the primary chapters surrounding that interlude sequence. Maybe they happened weeks or months or years earlier (or later, to a degree).

HOWEVER, we've definitely never seen that happen with interludes for characters involved in the main plot lines. Eshonai's WoR interludes were all chronological with the main story. Zahel's interlude where Kaladin asks to train happens right after the Szeth attack. Teft's OB interlude happened right as the battle started. You get the idea.

It would be pretty funky if the Syl interlude is a flashback to something that happened before the book started. And if Kaladin's not a soldier here I don't see how that would make much sense. Could be well after though. Maybe that first chapter takes place long before the first set of interludes.

[Sliver of Pie]

39 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Could be well after though. Maybe that first chapter takes place long before the first set of interludes.

Do we even have confirmation this is in the first set of interludes?

I'm still proposing the theory that something really bad happens in Hearthstone that ignites all those feelings of unexceptance from his father, and this is what causes the regression we see in the Syl interlude. And if so is pushing him to be the very thing his father pushed for the best solution.

[Use the Falchion]

49 minutes ago, Sliver of Pie said:

Do we even have confirmation this is in the first set of interludes?

I'm still proposing the theory that something really bad happens in Hearthstone that ignites all those feelings of unexceptance from his father, and this is what causes the regression we see in the Syl interlude. And if so is pushing him to be the very thing his father pushed for the best solution.

We don't. Combine that query with with Kaladin's new position and we have a major upset in many of the traditional character groupings. In my opinion, that's very exciting to see. The traditionally theorized groupings may still happen of course, but this interlude still changes a lot. 

[Jofwu]

We don't know it's the first set of interludes, though I have a hard time imagining them sharing an interlude like this that directly ties to the main characters which is deep into the book. Hard to believe it's not super spoilery otherwise. Regardless, if it's from a later set of interludes that just makes the point stronger.

[Karger]

I personally hope it is not one dramatic big thing.  I want Dalinar to notice that Kaladin is slipping and reassign him.  The drama does not seem in keeping with Kaladin's struggle.  It is not one big problem that is overwhelming him.  He is just getting pretty close to the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Karger

[jamskinner]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

I personally hope it is not one dramatic big thing.  I want Dalinar to notice that Kaladin is slipping and resign him.  The drama does not seem in keeping with Kaladin's struggle.  It is not one big problem that is overwhelming him.  He is just getting pretty close to the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Resign him?

[Karger]

Just now, jamskinner said:

Resign him?

*Reassign.

[+Oltux72]

20 hours ago, Jofwu said:

We don't know it's the first set of interludes, though I have a hard time imagining them sharing an interlude like this that directly ties to the main characters which is deep into the book. Hard to believe it's not super spoilery otherwise. Regardless, if it's from a later set of interludes that just makes the point stronger.

Well, if this is in the book's present and not at the very start of the book, then I've got to ask when Kaladin is supposed to start out on a voyage. Or is he? Have we exaggerated Kaladin's role in the book?