Syl Interlude Discussion

[+Oltux72]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

We don't exactly know what is going on with the champion business but couldn't Dalinar appoint whoever he wants?

He needs somebody who will win. Nor is it clear which weapons they will be fighting with. If Kaladin fails to proceed to the 4th oath gaining him Plate, somebody who does may well be a better choice.

[agrabes]

17 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I really don’t want Syl to become a “real girl” and date Kaladin. I don’t think that’s where it’s going either.

Kaladin being a surgeon will give him a break to figure some things out. It’s a diversion, he can’t protect people by being a total pacifist like his dad, but the time away from killing will help him with his 4th ideal.

Also, Syl openly assuming Kaladin is Dalinar’s champion all but guarantees it won’t be him right? He’s sort of the obvious choice anyways. 

Agreed about the anti-Syladin ship.  Sorry to those who support it, but it just feels wrong to me.  I think to me what makes it feel messed up is that Syl is in many ways like Kaladin's child.  She was given a mind by her relationship with him.  Her entire life depends on him literally.  The balance of power is too messed up.  This chapter didn't give me romance vibes at all - just a close, loving, but non-romantic relationship.  Syl loves Kaladin in some ways like a daughter loves her father - she wants to help him and ease his burdens.

I think for me, in terms of the Champion thing, I think there will be a "fake out" where it really looks like it won't be Kaladin, but at the last minute he gets himself together and it turns out to be him.  It sounds like Kaladin is going to be in really bad shape mentally at the beginning of RoW.  Dalinar probably expects the champion to be Kaladin as of the end of OB and gives Kaladin extra responsibilities, etc to prepare him for being head of the military arm of the Radiants.  I think this is what beats Kaladin down - the inability to let go of soldiers killed in battle under his command, the people he's failed to save.  With Kaladin out of commission, Dalinar starts planning for someone else to be the champion, working with that person to prepare them for it.  Maybe even Dalinar himself expecting to be the champion.  It all looks good, but then something goes wrong and Kaladin has to step it up again - which he does after a lot of struggle.

[+Q10fanatic]

21 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

On a separate note I like how "Bondsmith Did It!" answers a ton of our questions. Likely, Ishar did all the things Syl rattled off with the help of the Dawnshard *people boo* (I know, I know!) that binds all creatures voidish and mortal per WoK ch. 36 epigraph.

I actually have a real problem with this. We were told, by the Stormfather I think, that Honor created the Oathpact and the Heralds. We were told that the tragic flaw in the plan was Honor's inability to see that humans would eventually break their word, due to be blinded by the shard's Intent. Ishar has no such excuse. If Ishar did this, then our entire understanding of the early conflict is completely upended. Did Ishar lie to Honor? Fool Honor? This was done before Desolations, Ishar and the other Heralds were not mad yet. Was the Oathpact intended to fail? That goes against every in-world piece of information we have.

Also, how does Ishar have this amount of power? We are talking about TLR-reshaping-Scadrial levels of power, and over a longer period of time. Are we to believe that the Dawnshards are simply the Cosmere equivalent to Sa-angreal? I always imagined them to be tools that did one specific really big thing, often with terrible side effects for the world. 

Also, why don't Syl and the Stormfather agree on this key fact? Who performed the defining act of the war against Odium? If Syl is right, then I think the God-King of Tukar is being set up as the Big Bad of the second half of the series.

[Karger]

2 hours ago, agrabes said:

Agreed about the anti-Syladin ship.  Sorry to those who support it, but it just feels wrong to me.  I think to me what makes it feel messed up is that Syl is in many ways like Kaladin's child.  She was given a mind by her relationship with him.  Her entire life depends on him literally.  The balance of power is too messed up.  This chapter didn't give me romance vibes at all - just a close, loving, but non-romantic relationship.  Syl loves Kaladin in some ways like a daughter loves her father - she wants to help him and ease his burdens.

I agree with this.  Whenever the hero/monarch falls for their "swift blade" IE the person they keep around to be unexpected and find clever solutions to problems it always feels icky to me.  I do wonder how to do this well though.

9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

He needs somebody who will win. Nor is it clear which weapons they will be fighting with. If Kaladin fails to proceed to the 4th oath gaining him Plate, somebody who does may well be a better choice.

In a direct mano a mano confrontation I am not sure that Dalinar's side has anyone better then Kaladin in open combat except maybe Szeth.

[+Q10fanatic]

37 minutes ago, Karger said:

I am not sure that Dalinar's side has anyone better then Kaladin in open combat except maybe Szeth.

Adolin could be a possibility, especially if he wakes up Maya.

Jasnah, if given sufficient stormlight, is basically unstoppable 1v1.

I assume Shallan, as a master Lightweaver, would be similarly dangerous to Jasnah; stealth kills still count.

Vasher could get cute and use his Breaths trick.

All of these assume sufficient growth over the last two books.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

I actually have a real problem with this. We were told, by the Stormfather I think, that Honor created the Oathpact and the Heralds.

Yeah, when I said I "like" I like it in that it reminds me of "A Wizard Did It" or "Simpsons Did It".

You have a good point that Syl wasn't around for for most of the stuff she's talking about, so we may not be able to take her word on all of it.

I don't necessariy have a problem with Ishar doing all that stuff, but I was surprised at some of the things she listed like a Bondsmith made the Heralds into Heralds. The Oathpact was between Honor and the Heralds I had assumed Honor's part of it was at least making them  cognitive shadows whose bodies automatically regenerate and giving them the Honorblades. 

 Stormfather only says Honor gave them the right to bind the Fused. 

Quote

AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH - The Stormfather in OB Ch. 38

 

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

In a direct mano a mano confrontation I am not sure that Dalinar's side has anyone better then Kaladin in open combat except maybe Szeth.

Agreed Kaladin and Szeth, if he becomes more reliable, are by far the best choices. Being able to fly would be huge 1 on 1.

Szeth is the strongest fighter in that he was trained with all the Honorblades before he was exiled https://wob.coppermind.net/events/358/#e10722.

He used a blade and Surgebinding to kill for ~6 years. He also has Nightblood. But, he freaks out too easily right now. 

Jasnah is very experienced, but knowing she has the 10th book I don't expect her to get this big a moment in book 4 or 5. 

Of course all this assumes the "contest of champions" they agreed to will end up being a physical fight. Contest leaves some wriggle room for Brandon. It would run the risk of being very silly or anti-climactic if it's not an actually a fight with weapons/powers. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Isilel]

3 hours ago, agrabes said:

 

I think for me, in terms of the Champion thing, I think there will be a "fake out" where it really looks like it won't be Kaladin, but at the last minute he gets himself together and it turns out to be him. 

This is very likely, but would be quite boring and repetitive, IMHO. How many times did Kaladin save the day at the last minute already? Must he usurp the Skybreaker book, too?

 

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

We were told that the tragic flaw in the plan was Honor's inability to see that humans would eventually break their word, due to be blinded by the shard's Intent. Ishar has no such excuse.

I think that it is strongly hinted in the books that the Heralds didn't expect the Oathpact to turn out the way it did and this may have something to do with Honor's interference. I mean, it is not just Ishar who has no excuse, including a parent and child duo in their number if they had any inkling of what they were getting into was just insane.

IIRC, quoting from memory there is even an in-world expression "unprepared as the Heralds on the day of Reckoning". There is also a WoB that some Heralds blamed Honor for what happened to them.

 

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

.Also, how does Ishar have this amount of power? We are talking about TLR-reshaping-Scadrial levels of power, and over a longer period of time. Are we to believe that the Dawnshards are simply the Cosmere equivalent to Sa-angreal?

Looks that way, though they were seemingly used up by the great feats they have powered. I don't agree that it is quite the same level of power as planet-reshaping, though.

 

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

 If Syl is right, then I think the God-King of Tukar is being set up as the Big Bad of the second half of the series.

You know, this is a great idea! It is widely believed  that Odium will change Vessels in book 5 and I was hard-pressed to envision how having some newb acsend to it wouldn't severely undercut the sense of danger in the back half. Also, having the Heralds be the focus of the back half in such a situation seemed a very odd decision to me, since all this history should have become largely irrelevant. But Ishar as Odium? A man who already knows so much and wielded such power? That would be scary and exciting. Brilliant!

Maybe we could even have our first villanious dual-Shard if he picked up Honor too, somehow... Unlike Rayze he needn't be into purity of Intent.

[Rainier]

On 7/9/2020 at 4:24 AM, Isilel said:

Well, I remember a WoB that Kaladin will have more page-count in RoW than in OB, so, sadly, I can't see Navani topping that. But Dalinar will have less than in WoR, IIRC, so yes.

That makes sense. I'm preparing myself for Navani to be a top-5 character in this book, and given that this book is about Venli (Eshonai in the flashbacks), that means she's competing with Kaladin/Shallan/Dalinar for word count. Obviously Dalinar is in the same place, so he's the one who I think will lose POVs to feed Navani.

21 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I really don’t want Syl to become a “real girl” and date Kaladin.

This has never been a possibility, and I'm disappointed at how popular it seems. I don't think Shallan and Pattern belong together, nor Wyndle and Lift, nor the Stormfather and Dalinar. Spren and humans are complements, and men and women are complements, but that doesn't mean you can substitute a spren for a woman any more than you could substitute a woman for a spren.

[agrabes]

23 minutes ago, Isilel said:

This is very likely, but would be quite boring and repetitive, IMHO. How many times did Kaladin save the day at the last minute already? Must he usurp the Skybreaker book, too?

Yeah, a little predictable but not necessarily bad, repetitive or boring to me.  Kaladin has saved the day at the last minute twice and failed to save the day at the last minute twice.  But each time was different and interesting.  I want the one who saves the day to be a character I like.  So if it's not Kaladin, Shallan, or Dalinar I'll be a little disappointed.  They are the main characters of the front 5 and also my favorite characters.  Venli would be an interesting dark horse choice if she develops enough power in the last two books.  Honestly, I've never been a fan of Szeth or his mindset.  To me, he's not worthy of being the champion at least as he is now.    But, that's just me.

[+Q10fanatic]

31 minutes ago, Isilel said:

It is widely believed  that Odium will change Vessels in book 5 and I was hard-pressed to envision how having some newb acsend to it wouldn't severely undercut the sense of danger in the back half. Also, having the Heralds be the focus of the back half in such a situation seemed a very odd decision to me, since all this history should have become largely irrelevant. But Ishar as Odium? A man who already knows so much and wielded such power? That would be scary and exciting. Brilliant!

You know, I hadn't even thought about the focus on the Heralds in the back half. That's a good point.

I've really disregarded Ishar as a character before now, I think because he's never been on camera. But this info dump makes me think that Ishar is continually being brought up for some reason. Maybe we'll finally get a pov and we'll start to see what all the fuss is about.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

Adolin could be a possibility, especially if he wakes up Maya.

Unless that gives him access to the full range of Edgedancer powers(and I personally don't think it will) Kaladin is better.  Even if it does Kaladin will be a year ahead to surge training.

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

Jasnah, if given sufficient stormlight, is basically unstoppable 1v1.

I fully acknowledge Jasnah's certificate in butt kicking but I think she relies to heavily on her two big moves(soulcasting and elsecalling).  If Odium's champion is preped against those(by for example bonding Yalig-nar) she is not going to win.

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

I assume Shallan, as a master Lightweaver, would be similarly dangerous to Jasnah; stealth kills still count.

Less so in a direct duel.  Shallan's capabilities are best when unexpected.  If the enemy is prepared for a Lightweaver they are much harder to trick.

I agree that Ishar as a back half villain trying to splinter ALL the shards and or take their power would be super interesting.

[+Oltux72]

Just now, Karger said:

I fully acknowledge Jasnah's certificate in butt kicking but I think she relies to heavily on her two big moves(soulcasting and elsecalling).  If Odium's champion is preped against those(by for example bonding Yalig-nar) she is not going to win.

If Odium's champion bonds Yelig-Nar and gets a few weeks to train, who exactly does stand a chance? Hoid? A Herald with multiple Honorblades? Sja-Anat plus her knight after switching sides?

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

If Odium's champion bonds Yelig-Nar and gets a few weeks to train, who exactly does stand a chance? Hoid? A Herald with multiple Honorblades? Sja-Anat plus her knight after switching sides?

From what we saw you can't really train with Yelig-nar.  You just do your best to control him before he burns you out.  Also Nightblood.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Karger

[+Oltux72]

 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

From what we saw you can't really train with Yelig-nar.  You just do your best to control him before he burns you out.  Also Nightblood.

Aesudan must have bonded him for weeks at least.

[+Q10fanatic]

I really want to see Nightblood take on an Unmade. Plus some realmatically aware commentary from Vasher or Hoid or someone.

Like: Szeth walks up to Ashert'marn, pokes it with Nightblood. Venli (from a safe distance) explains exactly what she sees, a la Battle of Thaylen Field. I think that would be amazing.

[+Q10fanatic]

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Aesudan must have bonded him for weeks at least.

Bonding, for Yelig-Nar, only begins when you eat the smokestone. We don't know what happens when you just hang out with the stone. Maybe he corrupts you?

[Karger]

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Aesudan must have bonded him for weeks at least.

2 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

Bonding, for Yelig-Nar, only begins when you eat the smokestone. We don't know what happens when you just hang out with the stone. Maybe he corrupts you?

But I don't think she used it much.  The only time we see her try she gets destroyed.

[+Q10fanatic]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

But I don't think she used it much.  The only time we see her try she gets destroyed.

I always assumed that she swallowed the stone just before Elhokar walked in. I never thought it was like a (MB) 

Spoiler

Metal from scadrial, where it sits there until you burn it.

My impression was that as soon as you eat it, Yelig-nar starts consuming you.

[Karger]

33 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

My impression was that as soon as you eat it, Yelig-nar starts consuming you.

Maybe it does but if you use it less the process is slower(like a drug).  Also a bunch of time dilation happens so she could have consumed to at the first everstorm and still been around when meeting Elhokar.

[Nathrangking]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Less so in a direct duel.  Shallan's capabilities are best when unexpected.  If the enemy is prepared for a Lightweaver they are much harder to trick.

True that a lightweaver is conventionally at a disadvantage when one is prepared. In a direct duel if one relies on images alone I agree that things would be difficult. However, we have not scratched the surface of what one might be able to do if other parts of the waveform spectrum were used. Manipulation of sonic waves could make things for example.

[+Q10fanatic]

44 minutes ago, Karger said:

Also a bunch of time dilation happens so she could have consumed to at the first everstorm and still been around when meeting Elhokar.

Oh true, I forgot about the weird time dilation stuff. Do we even know what caused that? Is that a specific Unmade ability or do we think that the presence of 3 unmade was enough to create that effect, like the Stormfather does with Syl in the storm?

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Q10fanatic said:

Oh true, I forgot about the weird time dilation stuff. Do we even know what caused that? Is that a specific Unmade ability or do we think that the presence of 3 unmade was enough to create that effect, like the Stormfather does with Syl in the storm?

Could be either.  We don't have any way of knowing.

20 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

True that a lightweaver is conventionally at a disadvantage when one is prepared. In a direct duel if one relies on images alone I agree that things would be difficult. However, we have not scratched the surface of what one might be able to do if other parts of the waveform spectrum were used. Manipulation of sonic waves could make things for example.

As a Lightweaver myself I am completely cognoscente of the power of a few well placed traps, tricks, or distractions.  A combination of sound, lights, images and possibly even solid objects can do a lot.  However in a dueling environment you have problems.  Your opponent will have studied you and your capabilities maybe even specific moves and trained to counter them.  Additionally it is probable that Odium will chose a powerhouse as his own champion.  Someone capable of withstanding a lot of damage and outputting a lot of different kinds of forces.  It is hard to craft a complex illusion when on the defensive and if they start smashing the field you could end up in serious trouble.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

I always assumed that she swallowed the stone just before Elhokar walked in. I never thought it was like a (MB) 

  Reveal hidden contents

Metal from scadrial, where it sits there until you burn it.

My impression was that as soon as you eat it, Yelig-nar starts consuming you.

Aesduedan ate the stone off screen. We see her mention that she had found a way to make her own radiants and master the stone unlike gavilar. Both of these are implied to have happened some time ago (weeks or months). But even admitting that portion is conjecture, Aesudean has an extended conversation with Elhokar long before she starts showing any signs. Amaram on the other hand the moment he swallows it, he shows signs (my theory is old so its been awhile since I read the scenes. please give me a little bit to refresh myself on them). Which is what caused me to beleive Yelig-nar functions like nightblood. I linked my theory below:

 

 

edit: re-read the scenes briefly. The guards were disappearing before Kaladin and Co showed up in the city, which is what I believe Aesudean was referring to by "making" her own radiants. She speaks of having learned how to bond the Unmade, and that Yelig-nar serves her. Only after the extended conversation with Elhokar does her eyes begin to glow red. Then the smoke begins to surround her. Conversely Amaram swallows the gemstone, Kaladin drops down next to him. Amaram's eyes begin to glow red, and after summoning his second shardblade, the transformation has begin in full (the vambrace of his armor pulsed on his forearm, as if something was pushing from underneath it)

So I reasoned that the possible difference between the speed of these two was actively using the powers. Since Yelig-nar "consumes", I reasoned that without fuel (voidlight or stormlight), he consumes the person. That the reason voidbringers could use Yelig-nar in the past, was because they could use voidlight to fuel them, and mastering his hunger by controlling their power usage. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+Child of Hodor]

I agree Amaram using the powers a lot in battle is why he is consumed quicker.

[joesleepsalot]

Since everyone here is sharing opinions lol.... I care absolutely zero how cliche it is for Kaladin to be the predictable hero: if he is NOT the chosen one/hero I’m gonna be pretty annoyed. We’ve all got real lives and real life business to attend to, kids, and careers——these are fiction books and having the time to read them is frankly a luxury. Thus...give Adolin powers (if I wanted ordinary Powerless characters I’d just read any other book) and make Kaladin the hero that we’ve all been groomed to expect.... after all, we’ve waited years and years for him to catch a break. If someone else gets elevated to that role I’m gonna probably quit reading 

Edited July 11, 2020 by joesleepsalot