Aluminium bullets

[theTruthshaper]

So, I just realised that in Hemalurgy, Aluminium 'removes all powers'. I have two problems with this:

What is all? Do you also remove Physical strength, Connections, Identity? Does an aluminium spike leave someone a soulless husk by removing their very spiritweb? Or does this change with respect to where you put the spike?

So hypothetically while using aluminium bullets, you could remove Allomancy / Some other stuff of your opponents?

This would become very overpowered once aluminium is cheap.

Edited July 3, 2020 by The_Truthwatcher

[+Oltux72]

7 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

What is all? Do you also remove Physical strength, Connections, Identity? Does an aluminium spike leave someone a soulless husk by removing their very spiriteb? Or does this change with respect to where you put the spike?

Presumably that depends on where you stick the spike.

[Honorless]

I think that refers to ability to access Investiture

[theTruthshaper]

The question is that, if you have an spray machine gun with aluminium bullets, can you complete destroy another persons spiritweb, ripping it in parts, each bullet removing different things depending upon where they pierce the person. This might easily stop a knight radiant.

Edited July 3, 2020 by The_Truthwatcher

[Elend Venture]

On 7/3/2020 at 1:36 AM, The_Truthwatcher said:

The question is that, if you have an spray machine gun with aluminium bullets, can you complete destroy another persons spiritweb, ripping it in parts, each bullet removing different things depending upon where they pierce the person. This might en easily stop a knight radiant.

Then again, thirty slugs in the chest and head might do in even a Knight Radiant anyway.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Elend Venture

[Halyo_Alex]

21 minutes ago, Elend Venture said:

Then again, thirty slugs in the chest and head might do even a Knight Radiant in anyway.

Yeah, aluminum blocks investiture based healing.

[+Oltux72]

4 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

The question is that, if you have an spray machine gun with aluminium bullets, can you complete destroy another persons spiritweb, ripping it in parts, each bullet removing different things depending upon where they pierce the person. This might en easily stop a knight radiant.

No. The spike still needs to be charged and then to be put into the right bind point. Unless your bullet hits two people after one another just the right way, that will not happen.

Remember that a simple transfer of arcane powers is the very basic usage of hemalurgy. You can do almost  anything to a spirit web.

[Elegy]

The shots of a spray machine gun would be random. Hemalurgy requires Intent, and I think you have to be conscious of the exact spot you're spiking. So shotgun Hemalurgy would only work with someone who know's exactly where the bullet will hit, right? So just cover someone in bullets would practically have no Hemalurgic effect whatsoever, from what I understand. I mean, shooting someone and getting the Hemalurgic effect is possible, of course - after all, Wax did it - but you really have to hit exactly where you want to. (Except I got something wrong.)

[theTruthshaper]

4 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Yeah, aluminum blocks investiture based healing.

Storms, I am stupid.

22 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No. The spike still needs to be charged and then to be put into the right bind point. Unless your bullet hits two people after one another just the right way, that will not happen.

Remember that a simple transfer of arcane powers is the very basic usage of hemalurgy. You can do almost  anything to a spirit web.

I was not talking about transfer of powers. Aluminium simply removes powers in Hemalurgy. 

(Question: Lerasium steals all powers, while atium steals any power. Does this mean you only need one lerasium spike for many powers?)

20 minutes ago, Elegy said:

The shots of a spray machine gun would be random. Hemalurgy requires Intent, and I think you have to be conscious of the exact spot you're spiking. So shotgun Hemalurgy would only work with someone who know's exactly where the bullet will hit, right? So just cover someone in bullets would practically have no Hemalurgic effect whatsoever, from what I understand. I mean, shooting someone and getting the Hemalurgic effect is possible, of course - after all, Wax did it - but you really have to hit exactly where you want to. (Except I got something wrong.)

This was my main question. If you have Intent to make a Hemalurgical spike and knowledge of the bind points but you do not know where it will hit, can you still make one?

Edited July 3, 2020 by The_Truthwatcher

[Elegy]

17 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

This was my main question. If you have Intent to make a Hemalurgical spike and knowledge of the bind points but you do not know where it will hit, can you still make one?

It's kinda confusing and I don't know what to make of it yet, but there's this WOB:

Quote

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it.

Questioner

You risk stealing the wrong thing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that?

Questioner

Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

[+Oltux72]

55 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

I was not talking about transfer of powers. Aluminium simply removes powers in Hemalurgy.

An aluminium hemalurgic spike does so. A simple, sharp piece of aluminium will not.

Hemalurgy edits a spirit web by adding, modifying and taking away parts. All these modifications require an invested, intentionally made spike. Now, it is highly likely that to most practioners the options of adding parts to a spirit web is much more useful than removing parts of a spirit web, but that does not change the theoretical significance and method.

[theTruthshaper]

36 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

An aluminium hemalurgic spike does so. A simple, sharp piece of aluminium will not.

Hemalurgy edits a spirit web by adding, modifying and taking away parts. All these modifications require an invested, intentionally made spike. Now, it is highly likely that to most practioners the options of adding parts to a spirit web is much more useful than removing parts of a spirit web, but that does not change the theoretical significance and method.

If I take a bullet of aluminium, put it into a gun, and then fire it, all the while with the Intent to use it in Hemalurgy, it will work, won't it? I don't understand why you felt the need to say this.

 

1 hour ago, Elegy said:

~snip~

So, it doesn't really matter, right? If I hit a misting with an aluminium bullet, it will remove their power(Or maybe remove something else? I don't know)

Edited July 3, 2020 by The_Truthwatcher

[Gears]

7 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

If I take a bullet of aluminium, put it into a gun, and then fire it, all the while with the Intent to use it in Hemalurgy, it will work, won't it? I don't understand why you felt the need to say this.

How accurate are your shots? Can you precisely hit the bindpoint you are aiming for? A blowgun might be better than a bullet at that point. No knockback.

[theTruthshaper]

4 minutes ago, Gears said:

How accurate are your shots? Can you precisely hit the bindpoint you are aiming for? A blowgun might be better than a bullet at that point. No knockback.

This is the whole question. How accurate do you have to be to steal an attribute? We do know that position is more important in the receiver, but how accurate do you have to be in the donor?

[+Oltux72]

13 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

If I take a bullet of aluminium, put it into a gun, and then fire it, all the while with the Intent to use it in Hemalurgy, it will work, won't it?

Work in what sense? Of course you will make a hemalurgic spike, if you shoot the target through the heart. But you will not do hemalurgy by that. Hemalurgy is a two-step process. You would have to recover your bullets and test them. Then you could do hemalurgy with them.

13 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

So, it doesn't really matter, right? If I hit a misting with an aluminium bullet, it will remove their power(Or maybe remove something else? I don't know)

Yes, by killing them. That is the point of hemalurgy. You get an Invested spike by killing somebody.

[theTruthshaper]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Work in what sense? Of course you will make a hemalurgic spike, if you shoot the target through the heart. But you will not do hemalurgy by that. Hemalurgy is a two-step process. You would have to recover your bullets and test them. Then you could do hemalurgy with them.

Yes, by killing them. That is the point of hemalurgy. You get an Invested spike by killing somebody.

In the Hemalurgic table, it is written that aluminium "removes all powers", so I doubt that the bullets would be invested.

[+Bzhydack]

Probably better will be seing at this as sideffect. Because even if you miss direct spot with hemalurgic charged aluminium bullet, you still hit. And hit is hit, more even, aluminium bullet stops Investiture-based healing. If you just hit enemy, he is vulnerable. If you hit him in the head, he is dead.

BTW, is this in-universe common kowledge, the aluminum stops healing? If is, why Wax dont used aluminum bulets against Miles?

Is another question. Can Hemalurgist, if he is metalborn, steal his own powers? Used spike on himself and charge? If can do so, aluminium spike could be interesting for someone with trauma related with using powers.

[+Oltux72]

5 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

In the Hemalurgic table, it is written that aluminium "removes all powers", so I doubt that the bullets would be invested.

Hemalurgy is editing the spirit web with a charged spike. All spikes must be Invested by a prior killing. The table pertains to the second step of changing the recipient whose spirit web is to be changed.

6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Is another question. Can Hemalurgist, if he is metalborn, steal his own powers? Used spike on himself and charge? If can do so, aluminium spike could be interesting for someone with trauma related with using powers.

He'd kill himself. The charging means death.

[+Bzhydack]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

He'd kill himself. The charging means death.

In most cases, yes, but it is possible to spike someone and he will be alive. Its possible, but tearing out part of soul will change this man drasticly, even if he will stay alive.

 

Quote

 

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)
#84 Share Copy

 

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

One does not have to kill someone with Hemalurgy to charge a spike, but it rips off a large part of the soul. The person would not be the same.

 

 

[GoWibble]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No. The spike still needs to be charged and then to be put into the right bind point. Unless your bullet hits two people after one another just the right way, that will not happen.

If you have a Aluminum spike that is charged through someone's death, you could make that into a bullet and fire that. I don't think that it has to be in a specific bind point, though. Vin gets the effect through her ear, and Spook gets stabbed in the chest region. If you fire the bullet into their chest, they will likely loose their powers and or die

[Hoidolasium]

4 hours ago, GoWibble said:

If you have a Aluminum spike that is charged through someone's death, you could make that into a bullet and fire that. I don't think that it has to be in a specific bind point, though. Vin gets the effect through her ear, and Spook gets stabbed in the chest region. If you fire the bullet into their chest, they will likely loose their powers and or die

We know there are a LOT of bind points, it's still up for debate how randomly you could spike someone and get a working Hemalurgic spike (although we do know that it probably wouldn't do what you wanted if you did it that way). It is possible that there is a Hemalurgic bind point in the earlobe, and Spook was probably spiked in one of the Physical points we already know about.

The way it makes most sense (at least for me) is that there are a certain number of targets on the body that your Aluminium bullet could hit that would steal Investiture. As a Spiritual metal, the bind points we know of are in places unlikely to do enough damage before they can remove it (the sides of the lower abdomen and the arms and legs), then access Healing. It really ultimately depends on how forgiving and how plentiful the bind points are, otherwise you're just using a very expensive and fragile bullet.

*Edit* WoBs coming soon!

Edited July 3, 2020 by Hoidolasium

[Elend Venture]

On 7/3/2020 at 8:04 AM, Gears said:

How accurate are your shots? Can you precisely hit the bindpoint you are aiming for? A blowgun might be better than a bullet at that point. No knockback.

     Ah, in my experiences blowguns are accurate, but only at close range, say, about a meter or two. Beyond that, they lose their accuracy at a severe rate, grouping around 30 cm at 10 meters, mind you I am not the most skilled blowgun marksman, but the fact remains that it would be more precise and reliable to spike someone with a spear than a blowgun at the distance of a couple of meters. 

      On the other hand, I can reliably keep a 5cm group at 25m with an autoloading handgun of about the same tech level as Era 2 pistols (A CZ75b to be specific), and a 2 1/3 cm group at 10m, which is effectively stacking .40 caliber (10mm) bullets one atop the other. That still may not be precise enough. My suggestion would be a small caliber pneumatic gun, as the barrel is stationary rather than pivoting, like that of an automatic pistol, and the recoil would be so minuscule that it would be practically ineffectual. Something else to take into consideration is the inherent instability of traditionally shaped bullets of such a light metal as aluminium in flight, as that could affect accuracy for the worse as well.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Elend Venture
Omittion of a typo.

[GoWibble]

13 hours ago, Elend Venture said:

Something else to take into consideration is the inherant instability of traditionally shaped bullets of such a light metal as aluminium in flight, as that could affect accuracy for the worse as well.

You could pack the inside of the bullet with a denser metal, I guess

[Elend Venture]

On 7/4/2020 at 6:18 AM, GoWibble said:

You could pack the inside of the bullet with a denser metal, I guess

Or make the bullet with a ballistic tip from aluminium. For reference, I have included a photograph of a bullet with a polymer ballistic tip.

 

[theTruthshaper]

Just now, Elend Venture said:

Or make the bullet with a ballistic tip from aluminium. For reference, I have included a photograph of a bullet with a polymer ballistic tip.

 

This is somewhat what I had in mind when asking the question.