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What options did the Listeners, specifically Venli have?


Oltux72

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It seems to me that many see Venli as a villain in the Frankenstein mold. I wonder why, or in other words, what else could she have done or proposed? Let me concentrate on the late war, close to the battle at Narak.

  • Surrender
  • Fight to the death
  • Introducing Forms of Power
  • Flee

Now let me look at these options, though not in that order

Flee

A group of civilians cannot outmarch the Alethi armies. That would have meant sacrificing a large group as a delaying force. And after that a weakened, homeless Listener tribe with little supplies would have found itself in a wilderness. Likely they would have eventually been found only to face another assault in a much weakened state.

Fight to the death

Well, it is fatal. They would have lost.

Surrender

To the Blackthorn and the man whose father you killed? Who has sworn a pact of vengeance? To a man who burned a human city to the ground? To people who hold your species in slavery?

Introducing Forms of Power

Yes, I will admit it. Venli did the right thing. She had no other choice.

 

Eshonai, though she was personally brave and clever, was a failure as a strategist. She just looked on as her people were slowly bled white. It seems to me that the Listeners doomed themselves as they murdered Gavilar and Eshonai bears a part of the blame for that, while Venli did basically the right thing.
Though in execution they should have used a part of their forces to evacuated the civilians and the Stormform should have moved further away to force the Alethi to first attack them or face getting between two groups.

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I mean, technically, negotiations were possible, with Eshonai & a changing Dalinar, but with the info they had, they were stuck between a rock & a hard place (I'm never using this turn of phrase again, it sounds so stupid) Eshonai was a really, really good person but Venli's actions were more realistic, her anger made sense, she was responding to her people's genocide, which truly was a game to the Alethi. Yes, she didn't really know what the Forms of Power would unleash but the warnings were there in their Songs of Remembrance but what other options did they have? They were getting out of options to even reliably feed themselves, completely dependent on the Gemhearts they were getting from the Chasmfiends. So, yeah, agreed.

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

It seems to me that many see Venli as a villain in the Frankenstein mold. I wonder why, or in other words, what else could she have done or proposed? Let me concentrate on the late war, close to the battle at Narak.

  • Surrender
  • Fight to the death
  • Introducing Forms of Power
  • Flee

Now let me look at these options, though not in that order

Flee

A group of civilians cannot outmarch the Alethi armies. That would have meant sacrificing a large group as a delaying force. And after that a weakened, homeless Listener tribe with little supplies would have found itself in a wilderness. Likely they would have eventually been found only to face another assault in a much weakened state.

Fight to the death

Well, it is fatal. They would have lost.

Surrender

To the Blackthorn and the man whose father you killed? Who has sworn a pact of vengeance? To a man who burned a human city to the ground? To people who hold your species in slavery?

Introducing Forms of Power

Yes, I will admit it. Venli did the right thing. She had no other choice.

 

Eshonai, though she was personally brave and clever, was a failure as a strategist. She just looked on as her people were slowly bled white. It seems to me that the Listeners doomed themselves as they murdered Gavilar and Eshonai bears a part of the blame for that, while Venli did basically the right thing.
Though in execution they should have used a part of their forces to evacuated the civilians and the Stormform should have moved further away to force the Alethi to first attack them or face getting between two groups.

Not owning up to Gavilar's assassination would probably work. Also not have Szeth dress up in white and be seen with the Singers before said assassination. The whole war as well as the resurgence of the Fused could have been avoided if they didn't have this strange custom about how assassinations take place.  

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1 hour ago, Dancer said:

Not owning up to Gavilar's assassination would probably work. Also not have Szeth dress up in white and be seen with the Singers before said assassination. The whole war as well as the resurgence of the Fused could have been avoided if they didn't have this strange custom about how assassinations take place.  

I think they thought the humans remembered enough

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Just now, R J said:

I think they thought the humans remembered enough

Well, then they should have sent the assassin a few weeks later. Gavilar surely had enemies. There would have been multiple suspects.

But this was a stupid thing to do. What reason did they have to think that the next king would not pursue Gavilar's plans? They had no idea where the spheres would end up. They screwed up in a major way. They should have negotiated and stalled.

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2 hours ago, Debarra said:

Not convert the majority of their population into soldiers. To my recollection the Alethi only ever did or mention wanting to kill the enemies soldiers so they would surrender. Throughout most of WOK they seem surprised with how many soldiers the Parshendi had.

 Then from Eshonis perspective we are told they seem to have made basically everyone a soldier. So from the Alethi perspective it seems like their population is far bigger than it really is. The easiest way to save the entire race from an outsiders perspective would be to stop this and surrender to the Alethi. Due to the information they have at hand they wouldn't know anything about their warlock nature or Dalinars past.

 It's certainly not the best option but it would beat total destruction. It's probable though the Parshendi never considered this as they were not used to accounting for humans in battle.

I suspect they had the very real fear that the Humans would be able to force them into Slaveform as they had their ancestors.  As @R J mentioned, they probably didnt realize just how much knowledge the humans had lost.

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3 hours ago, Debarra said:

Not convert the majority of their population into soldiers. To my recollection the Alethi only ever did or mention wanting to kill the enemies soldiers so they would surrender.

And then? Give the fate of the Singer people into the hands of the Alethi? Would they keep political independance? If not what would prevent the Alethi from enslaving the rest of their species? What would happen if they did not allow young Singers out into the Highstorm?

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Eshonai should have sued for peace earlier.  It would have cost her nothing to ask for terms.  She also should have put more effort into intelligence gathering.  She had the method.  If Rlain had reported in a few months earlier she could have countered Sadeas's tactics with ease and would even have understood some of Alethi politics.

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3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

A group of civilians cannot outmarch the Alethi armies. That would have meant sacrificing a large group as a delaying force. And after that a weakened, homeless Listener tribe with little supplies would have found itself in a wilderness. Likely they would have eventually been found only to face another assault in a much weakened state.

So Dalinar actually gives another reason that they can't flee: 

Quote

Human soldiers - particularly if lightly armored - could outrun Parshendi troops if they had to go more than a few dozen yards. -Dalinar tWoK chapter 56

 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, then they should have sent the assassin a few weeks later. Gavilar surely had enemies. There would have been multiple suspects.

Well, Gavilar thought that it wasn't the Parshendi at first. Everyone else was confused too.

 

Eshonai shouldn't have taken the form of power and should have gone through with the parley with Dalinar. Venli shouldn't have been listening to a strange spren

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

Eshonai should have sued for peace earlier.  It would have cost her nothing to ask for terms.

Well, no. If you ask for terms, your opponent will assume that you are exhausted. Any chance of him considering the costs too high and withdrawing is lost.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

  She also should have put more effort into intelligence gathering.  She had the method.  If Rlain had reported in a few months earlier she could have countered Sadeas's tactics with ease and would even have understood some of Alethi politics.

Yes. In fact she should have offered deserting bridgemen sanctuary. Yet, this is unlikely to work in the end. The war is economically advantageous to the Alethi. They won't give up.

1 hour ago, GoWibble said:

Eshonai shouldn't have taken the form of power and should have gone through with the parley with Dalinar. Venli shouldn't have been listening to a strange spren

And then? Dalinar is not the king. It is not his to grant mild terms. Even if he can get Elhokar to agree to them, he cannot publically forgo fulfilling the oath of vengeance. Elhokar has to keep face in front of the High Princes. I am sorry, unleashing the Everstorm was in the Listeners' interest at that point. They should have picked it in full knowledge of the consequences.

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Just now, Oltux72 said:

Well, no. If you ask for terms, your opponent will assume that you are exhausted. Any chance of him considering the costs too high and withdrawing is lost.

The Alethi already know that and Eshonai knows that they know.  The only reason that the battle has been prolonged is because of gemhearts.  A reasonable settlement would allow the Alethi to continue hunting.  The fact that Eshonai admits what the Alethi already know(parshe numbers are shrinking at an unsustainable rate) might increase Alethi moral on the short term but in the advent of a negotiation failure it would not change much.  Additionally Eshonai could have learned a substantial amount about the Alethi based on their demands and the open lines of communications would allow wartime negotiations(like surrender being recognised).

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes. In fact she should have offered deserting bridgemen sanctuary. Yet, this is unlikely to work in the end. The war is economically advantageous to the Alethi. They won't give up.

I had not thought of the first point.  That would be devastating to Sadeas's strategy.  To your second if the Alethi can gain the economic advantage without continuing to pay soldiers the pressure to gain and adhere to a peace agreement would be strong. 

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

And then? Dalinar is not the king

He kind of is.

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

It is not his to grant mild terms. Even if he can get Elhokar to agree to them, he cannot publicly forgo fulfilling the oath of vengeance

Dalinar pointed out that the execution of the parshendi leader(s)(the five) along with Eshonai herself would probably fulfill the oath of vengeance.  If they also agreed to recognize Alethi conquest over the plains(in exchange for some way of producing food) they could have done alright as a subject people.

11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am sorry, unleashing the Everstorm was in the Listeners' interest at that point. They should have picked it in full knowledge of the consequences.

The fused at best would just be another group of conquerors.  In my view they are in fact worse then the Alethi(they would probably have not forced the parshe into different forms based on Odium's need). 

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Dalinar was decided to accept a surrender if Listeners wanted to

In reality all highprinces were fighting for gemnstones at that point, they wanted wealth not vengeance and I doubt any of them would complain if listeners stopped to disturb their hunting  

If Listeners surrender and leave Narak they would pass unscathed, though I wonder how many Alethi were prone to slave them like they did with the parshmen. It was for sure the Shattared Pains would be attached to Alenkar and Listeners wouldn't ever be free again

Edited by IcaroRibeiro
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Was Venli consciously aware of the warnings in the songs? If she was, it was a foolish mistake to convert all of their ruling council into one Form at the same time, since even then they knew that the Five were there to balance out the government. Remember that although on a single plateau, the soldiers were faster in the long run, an extended chase over the Shattered Plains 100% favors the Listeners. They are virtually unaffected by the storms, every healthy adult in their population can reproduce, and in at least some of their Forms, they can cross chasms by jumping. That's why the Alethi couldn't find the Listener base: even if they retreated, once they got two or three plateaus away, the bridges were a much slower method.

*Edit* I need to go back for a reread, something here feels off

Edited by Hoidolasium
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So here are some points at different times in recent history. This isn't all of mine:

Eshonai finding out about Gavilar's plans, or at least part of them: Absolutely agreed that it was in the interests of others to gather information first. But they didn't. Why didn't they? Fear, probably. They're culturally conditioned to fear certain circumstances. Our present times show that fighting millennia of cultural conditioning is not easy, even for those with the best intentions for everyone.

Second: They should have sent an assassin in a more devious manner. They didn't do that. Brandon doesn't always have the best people interactions, but he's smart enough to get this. (By which I mean sometimes I can feel like I'm reading something scripted. Not that he is not the Brandon levels of brilliant we know and love.) What is he saying? He's saying that this culture considers assassination as something to be done in the open. What does that say about this culture? What does that say about where they came from? I always got the feeling they resented certain forms of deception, but I could be reading into it.

I never spent much energy crying over Eshonai and Dalinar's missed negotiation opportunities. I did, briefly, at first. But by the time they were ready to do that, other forces were at work--political figures scared on the Alethi side, Venli already planning for stormform.

We could go back to the early days of negotiation, or back to the days of the treaty, and say, "Yes they should have done this differently." They didn't. So by the time that it was urgent, Venli had to make a decision for an entire people that she had no right to make, and she was blinded by Ulim.

My question remains: Roughly a thousand Listeners, one of the Five included, droppped down a ladder into a chasm and disappeared. Stormform, Voidspren influenced Eshonai assumes ah they're all dead.

If Brandon has taught me anything in his Sandersoning, it is never to underestimate anyone. A missed detail might be a missed detail, but it's just as likely to be Sanderson plotting for the future.

I don't think we've seen the last of them, in a far more concrete way than Venli or Rlain reflecting on the doomed world they lost.

Edited by SingingMosaic
Minor clarification
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On 7/1/2020 at 7:14 PM, SingingMosaic said:

I don't think we've seen the last of them, in a far more concrete way than Venli or Rlain reflecting on the doomed world they lost.

I really hope we see Thude, Abronai, Zuln, and Venli's mother along with the rest of the thousand in book 4. They are the strongest willed, most determined to oppose Odium Listeners who self selected themselves into a group. I really want to see Venli and Rlain both interacting with them and both groups trying to get the thousands to trust them.

Edited by thejopen27
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There's a couple of things that I haven't really seen discussed here.

1. On the matter of a Parshendi surrender, I think we need to take into account Sadeus and his actions. I don't have the quote in front of me, but at one point he talks about how a group of Parshendi was surrounded and tried to surrender. He slaughtered them and the Parshendi never attempted a surrender again. This is probably the greatest reason they were so to try to find peace with the Alethi.

2. I'm not sure there was a better option for the Parshendi survival then the forms of power, given the information they had. This brings up a better question: Is it better for the singers to die then Odium to come back? This whole way started because the Parshendi were trying to prevent forms of power, and by extension Odium, from returning. Venli basically throws away the sacrifice of the original five and every other Parshendi that has since died in her last for power. Now, I'm not saying it want natural for the Parshendi to grasp at straws to ensure their survival, just that it wasn't right. Basically, in this instance does the end of listener survival justify the means if returning Odium? I would say no and I think most of the singers who listen to the warnings of the old gods would agree.

Here's an analogy. After writing it I'm not sure how good it is, but it took a while so I'll just leave it in. Let's say there are two nations who are signing a peace agreement. At the signing one of the officials if the bigger nation boasts of a genetically engineered virus that they can unleash on their enemies. This virus would move quickly through a population and be extremely dangerous. Seeing this danger, the other nation destroys the virus and kills the scientist who created it. Skip forward a few years and the nations are fighting. The bigger nation is obviously dominating and the smaller is almost destroyed. One person in the smaller nation has figured out how to create the virus that this all started over and decided to unleash it on the bigger nation. While it was slightly more controlled and beneficial for the smaller nation, in the end the outcome would be the same. The virus would spread so quickly that it would quickly move through the bigger nation and spread into the smaller one. The very evil the was was started to destroy has been unleashed on the world anyway.

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Venli is acting almost entirely on her own though, against the will of the council of five. The culture as a whole wished to avoid bring back their gods, but one Listerner wished them to come back and unleashed the storm upon the world.

Edited by thejopen27
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On 7/1/2020 at 2:45 AM, Oltux72 said:

It seems to me that many see Venli as a villain in the Frankenstein mold. I wonder why, or in other words, what else could she have done or proposed? Let me concentrate on the late war, close to the battle at Narak.

  • Surrender
  • Fight to the death
  • Introducing Forms of Power
  • Flee

Now let me look at these options, though not in that order

Flee

A group of civilians cannot outmarch the Alethi armies. That would have meant sacrificing a large group as a delaying force. And after that a weakened, homeless Listener tribe with little supplies would have found itself in a wilderness. Likely they would have eventually been found only to face another assault in a much weakened state.

Fight to the death

Well, it is fatal. They would have lost.

Surrender

To the Blackthorn and the man whose father you killed? Who has sworn a pact of vengeance? To a man who burned a human city to the ground? To people who hold your species in slavery?

Introducing Forms of Power

Yes, I will admit it. Venli did the right thing. She had no other choice.

 

Eshonai, though she was personally brave and clever, was a failure as a strategist. She just looked on as her people were slowly bled white. It seems to me that the Listeners doomed themselves as they murdered Gavilar and Eshonai bears a part of the blame for that, while Venli did basically the right thing.
Though in execution they should have used a part of their forces to evacuated the civilians and the Stormform should have moved further away to force the Alethi to first attack them or face getting between two groups.

I don't think Surrender is as bad an option as you make it out to be:

1) Dalinar and Eshonai had been in contact and were in process of working out a deal until she took Storm Form and lost control.

2) While the humans do keep the Parshmen as slaves, they do not know (at the time Venli is making her decision) that the Parshmen and Parshendi are the same species.  The humans always acknowledged the Parshendi as fully sentient beings who could not/should not be enslaved like the Parshmen.  The Parshendi knew and understood this, we see it from Eshonai's prologue that all parties understood the Parshmen were a separate category from humans and Parshendi.  The Parshendi knew that humans would not attempt to take them all as slaves similar to the way they had with the Parshmen.

If her goals were truly to preserve the life of her people, surrender was the best and most reliable option.  It may have forced them to become vassals of the Alethi, or to pay homage, etc, but it would have preserved the lives of the Parshendi and not made them slaves any more than a defeated human nation would have.

 

I don't totally blame her for choosing to go for the forms of power either.  It was a reasonable choice given the circumstances - she risked the return of their old "gods" on the chance that she might discover a safe form that was able to defeat the humans in battle.  But, it was also a choice made in pride.  To Venli, being defeated in war and submitting to the Alethi was just as bad as dying or being controlled by the Fused.  Wiser rulers (such as Eshonai, pre-storm form) understand when the surrender is the right decision and are able to consider it an option.  Venli at that time was not mature enough to understand.

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There are issues with Parshendi surrender.  The big problem is the Sadeas initiative. To any Parshendi point of view,  surrender is the same thing as extinction.  Then there's the issue of trust. Dalinar might have been able to make an agreement stick but there's a good chance he would not have.  Remember the last time they met on terms they lost a king. The Alethi cannot be sure they would honor their word and thus take the opportunity to slaughter them all when they supposedly have their guard down, turn about for the king they lost. There can be no agreement nor even assurance of safety where there is no trust. 

The issue is that the Five at the time of the assassination knew that their actions could likely spell the extinction of the Listeners.  They were willing to pay that ultimate price to keep Odium from returning, to keep the Fused from returning.  But it's easy to have that principled approach in the abstract sense. It's much harder when that extinction level event is imminent and you believe you have the means to stop it right at your fingertips.  In that case the songs of your ancestors may not hold much of a candle when weighed against your current circumstances.  Venli had the means, the will, and the hunger for recognition to act in a way she thought would both save her people and have her be seen as her people's savior. Both things were important to her. She was a villain,  but one with quite understandable motivation. 

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21 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

There are issues with Parshendi surrender.  The big problem is the Sadeas initiative. To any Parshendi point of view,  surrender is the same thing as extinction.  Then there's the issue of trust. Dalinar might have been able to make an agreement stick but there's a good chance he would not have.  Remember the last time they met on terms they lost a king. The Alethi cannot be sure they would honor their word and thus take the opportunity to slaughter them all when they supposedly have their guard down, turn about for the king they lost. There can be no agreement nor even assurance of safety where there is no trust. 

The issue is that the Five at the time of the assassination knew that their actions could likely spell the extinction of the Listeners.  They were willing to pay that ultimate price to keep Odium from returning, to keep the Fused from returning.  But it's easy to have that principled approach in the abstract sense. It's much harder when that extinction level event is imminent and you believe you have the means to stop it right at your fingertips.  In that case the songs of your ancestors may not hold much of a candle when weighed against your current circumstances.  Venli had the means, the will, and the hunger for recognition to act in a way she thought would both save her people and have her be seen as her people's savior. Both things were important to her. She was a villain,  but one with quite understandable motivation. 

That's true that Sadeas had been intentionally killing the Parshendi to make the war nastier.  But, that's the entire purpose of talking and discussing terms.  Had Dalinar and Eshonai actually met, Sadeas' behavior would have quickly been discovered.  Dalinar had been named High Prince of War by that time and had the authority to do something about Sadeas' troops committing war crimes.  He had the authority to promise Eshonai that it would stop and make it happen.  The purpose of having talks is to build trust, so over time the Parshendi could have built up enough trust to understand that the Alethi would at least not slaughter them all or enslave them like the Parshmen.

Trust is a lot less necessary for the Alethi than the Parshendi.  They had a commanding lead in the war.  There was no real chance the Parshendi could defeat them, though they didn't really know that completely.  The assassin in white was already coming for their leaders anyway, so there was nothing to lose on that front - talking with the Parshendi was not likely to trigger new and/or unexpected assassination attempts.  They would be fully on their guard.  They have the ability to dictate terms and impose their will.  Force the Parshendi to leave the Shattered Plains, pen them into a certain area, whatever they want to do.  

The Parshendi basically had 3 options:

1) Fight on until they all die.

2) Have talks with Dalinar and Elhokar to negotiate surrender and live on in defeat - likely to lose political independence and be assimilated into Alethi culture as second class citizens, or remain on a "reservation" in Alethi lands.

3) Risk using the forms of power.

I can understand why Venli chose option 3 and don't think she's evil because of it.  I'm just saying there was another option that would not involve complete genocide for the Parshendi.  They could have taken a different path, but it would have required them to prioritize survival of their people over pride in their culture and national identity.  We don't value this choice very much at least in western culture, but I think there's really something to be said for it.  

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9 hours ago, agrabes said:

That's true that Sadeas had been intentionally killing the Parshendi to make the war nastier.  But, that's the entire purpose of talking and discussing terms.  Had Dalinar and Eshonai actually met, Sadeas' behavior would have quickly been discovered.  Dalinar had been named High Prince of War by that time and had the authority to do something about Sadeas' troops committing war crimes.  He had the authority to promise Eshonai that it would stop and make it happen.  The purpose of having talks is to build trust, so over time the Parshendi could have built up enough trust to understand that the Alethi would at least not slaughter them all or enslave them like the Parshmen.

Trust is a lot less necessary for the Alethi than the Parshendi.  They had a commanding lead in the war.  There was no real chance the Parshendi could defeat them, though they didn't really know that completely.  The assassin in white was already coming for their leaders anyway, so there was nothing to lose on that front - talking with the Parshendi was not likely to trigger new and/or unexpected assassination attempts.  They would be fully on their guard.  They have the ability to dictate terms and impose their will.  Force the Parshendi to leave the Shattered Plains, pen them into a certain area, whatever they want to do.  

The Parshendi basically had 3 options:

1) Fight on until they all die.

2) Have talks with Dalinar and Elhokar to negotiate surrender and live on in defeat - likely to lose political independence and be assimilated into Alethi culture as second class citizens, or remain on a "reservation" in Alethi lands.

3) Risk using the forms of power.

I can understand why Venli chose option 3 and don't think she's evil because of it.  I'm just saying there was another option that would not involve complete genocide for the Parshendi.  They could have taken a different path, but it would have required them to prioritize survival of their people over pride in their culture and national identity.  We don't value this choice very much at least in western culture, but I think there's really something to be said for it.  

The thing is, it isn't what us as readers knew at the time,  but what the story participants knew. Given Dalinar's status in the story there's a good chance that he could have offered terms and made them stick. There's also a good chance that Eshonai could have been a good bridge between her people and the Alethi. We know this but the stakes were high. Desperate people have hair triggers and neither could have been certain that either party would be the one to provide the spark.  Now I will admit that Venli had an ulterior motive in that she wanted to be the one who saved her people and gain the power as her just reward.  That would have inclined her to disbelieve in the efficacy of a cease fire. She may have also felt that based off the way they treated her distant relatives that what the Alethi would have proposed would have been worse than extinction. Venli was by no means an unbiased party. Yet and still,  6 years of constant, no quarter warfare does not engender much in the way of trust. There are things I can fault Venli for but her decision,  given what she knew at the time,isn't something I would give total blame.

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Rereading the series in preparation for RoW, and there are finer points I missed, as well as some things to keep in mind that Brandon does better or differently than others (the man is seriously brilliant) that contribute, so I'll be revisiting this. And probably overthinking it.

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On 7/6/2020 at 2:10 PM, thejopen27 said:

Venli is acting almost entirely on her own though, against the will of the council of five. The culture of a whole wished to avoid bring back their gods, but one Listerner wised them to come back and unleashed the storm upon the world.

I think this is an important point to bring up. Regardless of whether that was a good option or not, Venli went against pretty much what every other listener wanted. The option of putting more people into Stormform was always there, instead of converting everyone right away.

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