Tien and the Sleepless

[Wits End]

11 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I mean there's no concrete evidence to disprove it, but I just can't get behind the theory.

And just because its happening a lot in this thread. @Crusadeus, @EgoFalsum, and @Wits End try not to double post. If you have something to add before someone else has responded use the edit feature. I don't mean it harshly (I did it plenty of times myself).

I apologize, I am not up-to-speed on the current forum etiquette. Thank you for bringing that to light. 

[Wits End]

1 hour ago, Crusadeus said:

People thought the same thing about Kelsier not being dead. Yet there was a bigger Why happening that needed Kelsier to be alive. And it certainly didn't diminish the effect it had on Vin and the crew.

The ultimate question isn't whether Tien is alive or not. It is why was Tien talking to the Sleepless. The answer to that drives whether he is alive or not, how the dawnshards play into the plot, why will the Sleepless worldhop, etc...

Good point

Edited July 1, 2020 by Wits End
Double post

[Crusadeus]

55 minutes ago, Wits End said:

Good point

it IS a good point. Also, if Mistborn Era 4 is going to be Brandon's final storyline and the sleepless "play a major part" in the story, then what they are doing now is setting up something major later on, on Scadrial.

[Negative_Null]

I do like this, and I'll admit it makes narrative sense for Tien to return at some point, in some form or another. I don't think he could have faked his death, but bringing up Kelsier raises an interesting point about Cognitive Shadows if we really want to go there. I'm still doubtful that's the answer though. My theory (if the cremlings were from a Sleepless) is that Tien noticed them monitoring Kaladin. One of his main character traits is how he notices things no one else does. 

[psc92]

Brandon has already done two fairly significant "fakeout" deaths in Stormlight alone and he's acknowledged that it's a dangerous trope to play around with. Jasnah was a surgebinder who was familiar with her powers which makes her very difficult to kill, so when reading WoR there was good reason to be highly skeptical about her "death".

Szeth on the other hand did actually die, but was revived by Nale right after he died. Brandon was using this a way to establish the idea that people can be brought back under very specific circumstances and only if the person bringing them back knows what they are doing.

There is no evidence that Tien knew he was a nascent surgebinder, and even if we assume that the cremlings that he talked to were in fact the Sleepless, then they were most likely there watching Kaladin (which we know they were doing). Tien was most likely talking to cremlings because he's been shown to be a very sensitive boy who wasn't cut out for war. 

The Kelsier example isn't that relevant here because he WAS dead and only managed to hang around as a cognitive shadow due to shenanigans that probably no one besides Kelsier could manage to pull off. In addition there was foreshadowing in Era 1 that he was still around and doing things.

I'm sorry but I think the odds of Tien still being around are very close to 0%, there's just not much evidence in-book, and I don't see a narrative reason for Brandon to keep him around either.

[EdmontonOilers#1Fan]

On 6/30/2020 at 11:32 AM, Crusadeus said:

Tien is a confirmed Radiant.

Questioner

The other Surgebinder in Amaram's army. Was it Tien?

Brandon Sanderson

Tien was a Surgebinder and was in Amaram's army. So yes. <pause> And [he] was a Lightweaver.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 6, 2018)

There is a ton of information about the Sleepless and their connection with Dawnshards. I believe they are watching Radiants to identify who can be trusted with the Dawnshard on Aimia. The back covers of each book are written by the Sleepless, they are watching for the Radiants.

 The comment that he talks to cremlings, is perfect enough to show his gentle nature as you say, but out of the way enough to require a pause to think about it. Brandon could have just said he wouldn't hurt a cremling, that he catches them and lets them go outside. The additional part of talking to them is intriguing.

While all these thoughts are cool.. You yourself have disproved this theory. 

You quoted Sanderson saying that Tien was a Lightweaver. Well, if you actually read the books you can see that EVERY time someone physically interacts with Shallan's Lightweaving, it "fuzzes". So, I have a hard time imagining Tien Lightweaving his corpse and Kaladin holding it for HOURS without Kaladin noticing the very distinct "fuzz" when physically breaching the illusion. Sanderson ALWAYS references the "fuzzing" when someone interacts with the illusion, even if it's Shallan herself.

I like your thinkin though. Keep at it, slugger.

Edited July 2, 2020 by EdmontonOilers#1Fan

[Crusadeus]

Cognitive Shadows is exactly where I wanted to go to next. Again, go back to the original post of why Tien was talking with the Sleepless. If in fact, they were "recruiting" Tien, their overall objective doesn't just lay on Roshar. It's obvious, this immortal world-hopping race has a larger plot to play. As I mentioned, they are watching the Radiants to find out who can wield the Dawnshards. The Dawnshards can obviously destroy worlds and Gods. But is it possible they can do the opposite as well?

But I digress, The Sleepless need to recruit those who will be able to join them worlds and worlds away, without being connected to the world they reside on. It is possible that Tien going through the process of dying started him on this journey. This may be what Gavilar is talking to Nale and Kalak about in the prologue of the next book.

So I am fully supportive of Tien being still alive, Tien being dead, or anything in between that's not what intrigues me. It's the Sleepless talking to Tien and the why behind that. Tien talking to cremlings because he was a soft, sweet, gentle, boy is exactly what Brandon would want you to think especially if it was a big plot point. What we do have is Brandon saying watch anytime that a cremling is mentioned because the Sleepless may be involved. We have no other evidence that Tien talked to any other creature due to him being a gentle sweet boy. And we have Hoid talking to a cremling (a confirmed hordeling from the Sleepless) waiting for Jasnah. There is actually far more evidence that the Sleepless was talking to Tien than there is that he was just nice and not cut out for war and that's why he was talking to the cremling.

 

[Karger]

@Crusadeus  If you could summarize some of your less audacious claims and put them here along with a link I would appreciate it.

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Karger

[GriffinMaze]

1. I think Tien was at least being followed by the sleepless. I don't think he was 'working with' them in any capacity. They were just keeping an eye on him like the apparently do many radiants

2. I think Tien really is dead. Remember we are talking about a child. No child is going to be going to be involved in world changing plots because they sucked in a little stormlight and they definitely aren't faking their death

Edited July 2, 2020 by GriffinMaze

[Crusadeus]

32 minutes ago, Karger said:

@Crusadeus  If you could summarize some of your less audacious claims and put them here along with a link I would appreciate it.

 

Id be honored to do so.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 6/30/2020 at 7:04 PM, Karger said:

I actually think the GB may have arranged Tien's death or at least taken advantage of him to grab the cryptic that was trying to bond at the time.

Kaladin himself knocks that in his battle with Amaram.  He did not become a great leader, warrior and radiant because the pain made him.  He became one because of the trust, support, and faith of those who counted on him.  He is everything he is because of them.

Actually, that can be argued to be one of the big flaws in Kaladin’s self image. He cannot see that his surviving where others fell as a source of strength. His pain and grief and suffering DID shape him, but so did the trust, faith and support of those who followed him.

Acknowledging the first half means accepting his losses though, and he’s still incapable of doing that. Kaladin struggles with turning loss into a source of strength.

Contrast this with our Scadrians. Kell turned his death into a source of strength for the entire Skaa population. On a smaller scale, the various members of the team have turned their past griefs into sources of strength. They keep going for the sake of those who’ve fallen.

 

It’s one of the reasons I love Mistborn so much more than SA; where the Scadrians internalize their grief and move forward, the Rosharans tend to get stuck.It’s very interesting thematically.
 

Loss can be a remarkable source of strength, and it always forges us. Whether we become stronger or end up warped depends on how we process and move on. Kaladin cannot move on, cannot move forward. That’s a weakness. He can’t live for Tien. He can’t live for his lost squad. He cannot even live for himself. He lives for the living, and so struggles to live when they leave him behind. That’s why, although Kaladin’s griefs have shaped him, they cannot be anything but a weakness.