Crusadeus

Tien and the Sleepless

35 posts in this topic

In Oathbringer, Chapter 91 "Why He Froze", pg. 870, it says this...

"Kal gripped his chisel tightly, fighting down the urge to stand up and go looking for Tien. Didn't they understand? Tien couldn't hurt cremlings. He'd catch the things and usher them outside, talking to them like pets. The image of him holding a spear was ludicrous."

My thought is this. Tien is/was in communication with the Sleepless. It may even be possible that as a Lightweaver, Tien, may have faked his death and is working with the Sleepless, possibly protecting the Dawnshard on Aimia. Its just an odd comment that Tien would talk to the cremlings. We have been told to watch out for odd cremlings in the books. This is odd.

Thoughts?

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's highly unlikely that Tien was a Radiant, that he was in communication with the Sleepless, or that he has anything to do with the Dawnshards. The part about Tien talking to the cremlings was really just to show that he was soft-hearted and gentle, exactly the wrong type of person to join the army and therefore a great way to bring out Kaladin's depression over his brother's death. It wasn't indicative of some grander plot that Tien plays a major role in.

Tien's dead. Your theory would be cool if it were true, but it's far-fetched and goes against every one of Kaladin's flashbacks. Besides, I doubt Brandon will actually deal with the Dawnshards until the back 5. It's just wishful thinking.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tien is a confirmed Radiant.

Questioner

The other Surgebinder in Amaram's army. Was it Tien?

Brandon Sanderson

Tien was a Surgebinder and was in Amaram's army. So yes. <pause> And [he] was a Lightweaver.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 6, 2018)

There is a ton of information about the Sleepless and their connection with Dawnshards. I believe they are watching Radiants to identify who can be trusted with the Dawnshard on Aimia. The back covers of each book are written by the Sleepless, they are watching for the Radiants.

 The comment that he talks to cremlings, is perfect enough to show his gentle nature as you say, but out of the way enough to require a pause to think about it. Brandon could have just said he wouldn't hurt a cremling, that he catches them and lets them go outside. The additional part of talking to them is intriguing.

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LadyLameness

You've said that Tien was beginning to bond a Cryptic before he died – did he use Surgebinding before he died, even unconsciously? If yes, did we ever see it on screen?

Brandon Sanderson

He was far enough along to start having some of the-- let's just say he was far enough along to have sworn at least one oath.

Skype Q&A (Oct. 8, 2018)

This is another possible help to the conversation

Draconic Lingerer

So you had had a Word of Brandon that had said that Tien was on his way to becoming a Lightweaver. My question is, did he ever actually become a Lightweaver; did he speak an Oath, and if so, did he bond with a Cryptic?

Brandon Sanderson

That's an excellent question. If you look closely through the first book, you will see Tien having some slight Lightweaving effects. In the back of my head, he was where Kaladin was during most of the first book, where it wasn't really official but there was a spren hanging around. He was very close to-- by the time he left, already done that. I would say he never actually managed to get that bond working... Otherwise, perhaps, things would have played out differently than they did.

FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)

This is another help to the conversation. It muddy's the possibility that Tien is still alive but doesn't completely kill the idea.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a great theory.  A Tien coming back up would do wonders for Kaladin's moral but I personally doubt it would happen.  I do find it probable that the sleepless were keeping an eye on Tien prior to his death(they do that to a lot of Radiants) but I don't think he was working with them.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have thought about what it would do to Kaladin if it is found out that Tien is actually alive. Would it heal his broken cracks that Nahel bonds are filling? Or would it widen them? I think it has the possibility of going each way. If Amaram didn't actually kill Tien, but it was a choice Tien made to disappear, would destroy Kaladin. He would have spent most his life hating someone who didn't "deserve" his hatred. Tien would have the ultimate lie/truth for a cryptic to bond to.

So, IF, this is all true that Tien is still possibly alive the question would be Why? Why would this progress the story or help the universe at peril.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Crusadeus said:

In Oathbringer, Chapter 91 "Why He Froze", pg. 870, it says this...

"Kal gripped his chisel tightly, fighting down the urge to stand up and go looking for Tien. Didn't they understand? Tien couldn't hurt cremlings. He'd catch the things and usher them outside, talking to them like pets. The image of him holding a spear was ludicrous."

My thought is this. Tien is/was in communication with the Sleepless. It may even be possible that as a Lightweaver, Tien, may have faked his death and is working with the Sleepless, possibly protecting the Dawnshard on Aimia. Its just an odd comment that Tien would talk to the cremlings. We have been told to watch out for odd cremlings in the books. This is odd.

Thoughts?

I don't think that Tien is alive, both because of Kal's arc and because Brandon just isn't that nice. But, we do know that he was a Radiant.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's assuming that Tien being alive would be a nice thing. Again, I think Tien being alive could be one of the cruelest things that could happen to Kaladin. I HOPE for Kaladin's sake that Tien is actually dead. But knowing Tien was a Radiant, a Lightweaver, and the knowledge that he was possibly talking with the Sleepless, I can't say he is for sure dead. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now for the Sleepless. A race created by Adonalsium himself. Protectors of the dawnshard. It is possible that the Scouring of Aimia occurred because the Unmade found out the dawnshard existed and was on Aimia and was a threat to their master Odium. The Sleepless appear to be guarding several secrets from humans, including something that Dalinar seeks but "must not know". The sleepless are watching Dalinar, Kaladin, Eshonai, Szeth, Venli and Shallan believing they are crucial to the survival of Roshar. They will kill anyone who tries to reach the shores of Aimia. We know that the Cook, who killed all the crew who tried to get to Aimia, would not reveal any secrets to Kaza even as she is dying, telling her that doing so could result in the "ends of worlds". We know that Dawnshards have resulted in the end of Ashyn already. So whatever the Sleepless are protecting and doing it is universe-in-peril level.

Javi (paraphrased)

I'm really curious about Aimia and I hope to see more about in the fourth book. Have the Heralds or Hoid been there and will they reveal some stuff about it?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, the Heralds have been there and yes, Hoid has been there. However, I don't think there will be info about Aimia in book four, but in a novella I'm planning to write, like Edgedancer. The story will be about some characters travelling to Aimia.

Celcius232 (July 18, 2019)

The Heralds, who cant die (except by the Vyre dagger) have been to Aimia. Hoid has also been there and has not been killed. Hoid most certainly know who the sleepless are and most likely what they are doing. Hoid has been confirmed to have been talking to the Sleepless...

Questioner

The Epilogue of Words of Radiance.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Hoid makes particular note of a cremling.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Dysian?

Brandon Sanderson

Hehehehe. You're starting to learn! You're starting to learn.

Questioner

That epilogue just got so much--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he was speaking to one of the Sleepless there. He has spotted them and they--

Questioner

So, he knows.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, he knows!

Questioner

Because he makes a comment about having “no intelligent audience.”

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes, yes. *laughter* Of course he doesn’t have an intelligent audience!

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

The ONLY other person who has been caught talking to cremlings, to the point where Brandon goes out of his way to mention it....Tien.

Something more is going on there, than just nice feelings.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like I said. I hope for Kaladin's sake I am wrong, but until someone can prove otherwise...its a pretty compelling theory. BrantSucks is entitled to his opinion.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why/how would Tien have faked his death? That's a bit of a stretch for me. Kaladin sat with Tien's body for HOURS. How would he have not noticed an extremely novice lightweaver (IF that's even the order he was going to be in) still breathing? 

Interesting theory, but I don't see it. He definitely spoke with the Sleepless, but Tien's dead. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Way of Kings Chapter 44. That's a good one. I've thought about that. Yes, he did lay with him for hours. But one thing we have definitely seen in Brandons books is that what we see and read is not always reality. Shallan saw Jasnah run through with a sword, but we know what happened there. Lopen can grow an arm back and Dalinar can completely forget a wife's name. It is not far fetched an idea that Tien could have used Lightweaving or the Sleepless to fabricate his death

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The difference here is that we were given clues to Jasnah not being dead: A - we never saw a dead body, and B - we heard the knife hit the wood floor. There were clues. The clues here were that Tien was a Radiant. That's cool. But I can't wrap my head around Tien somehow coming back to life. That would ruin Kaladin's story. It would be too much like the MCU where everyone lives and death doesn't matter. 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Karger said:

This is a great theory.  A Tien coming back up would do wonders for Kaladin's moral but I personally doubt it would happen.  I do find it probable that the sleepless were keeping an eye on Tien prior to his death(they do that to a lot of Radiants) but I don't think he was working with them.

Agreed. It makes much more sense that the Sleepless were keeping an eye on Tien. I actually think it would cheapen Kal's story. It would basically mean all the time he spent in the army afterwards was for nothing. His pain was pointless. 

Edited by EgoFalsum
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So that goes back again to the why. I wrote about Kaladin and his broken nature. The Nahel bond works when there are broken people to be reforged. Depending on why Tien wasn't killed or faked his death, could cause Kaladin's cracks in his soul to ultimately widen and destroy him. It cant be assumed that if Tien is alive and comes back that it fixes everything.

The only way Tien could not be dead would be because there was a greater "universe-in-peril" need in play. That's where dawnshards come in. Worlds would end if their secret got revealed. That is very "universe-in-peril" kind of talk. The dawnshards can stop Odium but may also destroy everything. Who's to say that the Sleepless arent tracking down people who can wield them. Tien could have been one. We already know that the Sleepless will play a major part in Mistborn Era 4 so its possible they are trying to find pure people around the cosmere to handle the dawnshards.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I always found funny was that Shallan herself said a couple times in WoR that she could be run through with sword and survive it but never thought that might apply to Jashah as well. As for Tien, it's one thing to see someone like Jasnah "die" but the others are right that Kaladin literally laid with Tien's body for hours. However, if Tien could make illusions and wanted Kaladin to believe he was dead, he might have made another person look like him long enough. I don't think Tien would have the motivation to do that and probably didn't have the requisite skill to do it either. Still, not a complete impossibility, just extremely improbable and I personally don't think that's how it went down. 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Crusadeus said:

So that goes back again to the why. I wrote about Kaladin and his broken nature. The Nahel bond works when there are broken people to be reforged. Depending on why Tien wasn't killed or faked his death, could cause Kaladin's cracks in his soul to ultimately widen and destroy him. It cant be assumed that if Tien is alive and comes back that it fixes everything.

The only way Tien could not be dead would be because there was a greater "universe-in-peril" need in play. That's where dawnshards come in. Worlds would end if their secret got revealed. That is very "universe-in-peril" kind of talk. The dawnshards can stop Odium but may also destroy everything. Who's to say that the Sleepless arent tracking down people who can wield them. Tien could have been one. We already know that the Sleepless will play a major part in Mistborn Era 4 so its possible they are trying to find pure people around the cosmere to handle the dawnshards.

The sleepless are following a LOT of people. They're following the Ghostbloods, too. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

What I always found funny was that Shallan herself said a couple times in WoR that she could be run through with sword and survive it but never thought that might apply to Jashah as well. As for Tien, it's one thing to see someone like Jasnah "die" but the others are right that Kaladin literally laid with Tien's body for hours. However, if Tien could make illusions and wanted Kaladin to believe he was dead, he might have made another person look like him long enough. I don't think Tien would have the motivation to do that and probably didn't have the requisite skill to do it either. Still, not a complete impossibility, just extremely improbable and I personally don't think that's how it went down. 

Thank you for saying it is not impossible. I respect the opinion that you have that it is highly improbable too. And by all accounts, it IS highly improbable as we have all been following Kaladin and his journey. But, again, unless there is a bigger Why at stake then this is just a cool unlikely theory. But for me, it all goes back to Brandon pointing out that Tien talked to cremlings, something only Hoid has done on purpose.

It is also very possible that Tien was approached by the Sleepless and he said no to them.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a very interesting discussion. Long have I thought that there was more to Tien's story than BS has given to us. Yet I ponder as to how this would advance the storyline for the subsequent events? I would like to hear from the OP as to how they feel this could advance the story - assuming this theory could very well come to fruition. Obviously the insights are peculiar, but to what end? Thoughts?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, EgoFalsum said:

Agreed. It makes much more sense that the Sleepless were keeping an eye on Tien. I actually think it would cheapen Kal's story. It would basically mean all the time he spent in the army afterwards was for nothing. His pain was pointless. 

I disagree. Maybe that is exactly what Kal had to go through to progress his story. Where would he be now if he didn't experience the pain and guilt that accompanied Tien's "death"? That experience may have been a necessary catalyst to put him in position to be greater than he otherwise would have been. The revelation that Tien is alive could advance the story in ways we have never thought possible. I hope there are teeth to this. I think it's really interesting to contemplate what this could mean.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

33 minutes ago, Wits End said:

This is a very interesting discussion. Long have I thought that there was more to Tien's story than BS has given to us. Yet I ponder as to how this would advance the storyline for the subsequent events? I would like to hear from the OP as to how they feel this could advance the story - assuming this theory could very well come to fruition. Obviously the insights are peculiar, but to what end? Thoughts?

I actually think the GB may have arranged Tien's death or at least taken advantage of him to grab the cryptic that was trying to bond at the time.

19 minutes ago, Wits End said:

That experience may have been a necessary catalyst to put him in position to be greater than he otherwise would have been

Kaladin himself knocks that in his battle with Amaram.  He did not become a great leader, warrior and radiant because the pain made him.  He became one because of the trust, support, and faith of those who counted on him.  He is everything he is because of them.

Edited by Karger
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tien still being alive would be really silly and an unnecessary plot revelation, also it would retroactively diminish the impact his death had on Kaladin and as well as the scene where Kaladin meets Oroden.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean there's no concrete evidence to disprove it, but I just can't get behind the theory.

And just because its happening a lot in this thread. @Crusadeus, @EgoFalsum, and @Wits End try not to double post. If you have something to add before someone else has responded use the edit feature. I don't mean it harshly (I did it plenty of times myself).

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, psc92 said:

Tien still being alive would be really silly and an unnecessary plot revelation, also it would retroactively diminish the impact his death had on Kaladin and as well as the scene where Kaladin meets Oroden.

People thought the same thing about Kelsier not being dead. Yet there was a bigger Why happening that needed Kelsier to be alive. And it certainly didn't diminish the effect it had on Vin and the crew.

The ultimate question isn't whether Tien is alive or not. It is why was Tien talking to the Sleepless. The answer to that drives whether he is alive or not, how the dawnshards play into the plot, why will the Sleepless worldhop, etc...

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would love for it to happen (seriously, my happiness would only be slightly less than Kaladin's if this happened, no matter what tvtropes says against this kind of stuff!..... well, in this particular case) but I don't think it's gonna happen

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.