thejopen27

spoiler
Did Gavilar have a change of heart?

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Posted (edited)

In the afternoon of the day he died, Gavilar offers the gem containing Ba-ado-Mishram to Eshonai with the intention to return the Listener gods and the cycle of desolations. In Szeth’s prologue in Way of Kings we see Gavilar give the gem to Szeth and tell him not to let the Parshendi have it. 

Did he change his mind in the meantime? It seems like he has had a change of heart about his plans in the six-eight hours between events. Did Nale and Kalak speak to him? One of the other Heralds?

it’s my speculation the sphere contained Ba-ado-Mishram but there is no proof. I’m assuming the sphere Gavilar shows Eshonai is the same he gives to Szeth.

is this the same gem both times? Does Gavilar get it back or does he have more than one?

did he change his mind or does his plan just require the Parshendi don’t have that sphere?

Edited by thejopen27
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14 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

it’s my speculation the sphere contained Ba-ado-Mishram but there is no proof. I’m assuming the sphere Gavilar shows Eshonai is the same he gives to Szeth.

is this the same gem both times? Does Gavilar get it back or does he have more than one?

We don't know what it contained.  That is one theory but it has some problems.  There were multiple gemstones. 

Quote

Jofwu

Gavilar's black sphere. What was inside of it and how many does he have?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, it is what you think it is. And he had-- yeah... He had access to several. Did we canonize this Karen?

Karen Ahlstrom

*shakes head*

Brandon Sanderson

No, we haven't canonized it. I'm going to say RAFO on the number, but it is what you think it is and what the third book implies that it is.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)
Quote

chasmfriend

Was the black sphere that Gavilar gave to Eshonai, did it contain the same thing that he gave to Szeth?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes! A question I can answer about the black sphere.

chasmfriend

So same contents?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

Also were did Ulim come from?

13 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

we see Gavilar give the gem to Szeth and tell him not to let the Parshendi have it. 

We do not know he meant the parshendi.  I personally think he was referring to the GB.

 

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Posted (edited)

I think it's more likely that the gem contained a Voidspren, perhaps Ulim, which would explain how he came to be on Roshar to work with Venli.

It might also have simply contained Voidlight.

It requires a perfect gem to capture an Unmade, with Ba-Ado-Mishram, I think it would take a truly grand gemstone.

Edited by R J
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12 hours ago, R J said:

I think it's more likely that the gem contained a Voidspren, perhaps Ulim, which would explain how he came to be on Roshar to work with Venli.

It might also have simply contained Voidlight.

It requires a perfect gem to capture an Unmade, with Ba-Ado-Mishram, I think it would take a truly grand gemstone.

 Ulim ??? I'm pretty sure szeth hid that thing somewhere in Jah keved. 

Also wasn't ulim the one who guider venli to buy szeth. 

Idsee how it could have been him in the gem. 

My spheres are on an Unmade , or part of an Unmade. Also I doubt size has anything to do with perfect gems

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We know that an Unmade can fit in a very small sphere, Aesudan and Amaram could swallow theirs. I think the King's Drop was just big because it was a spectacular display piece, not because perfect gems have to be large.

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9 minutes ago, earthexile said:

We know that an Unmade can fit in a very small sphere, Aesudan and Amaram could swallow theirs. I think the King's Drop was just big because it was a spectacular display piece, not because perfect gems have to be large.

To be fair, the gemstone was there only to facilitate the bond with Yelig-nar, not to contain him for a longer period of time

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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

 Ulim ??? I'm pretty sure szeth hid that thing somewhere in Jah keved. 

Gavilar had given Eshonai one sphere and had one on his person when he was killed. IIRC Navani told Dalinar after he captured the Thrill in OB, that Gavilar had posessed several spheres that glowed with similar voidish light.

 

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Also wasn't ulim the one who guider venli to buy szeth. 

It was an intelligent spren that was able to make itself invisible - which we don't know that Ulim can do that. IMHO, it was Nale's highspren - we at least know that they have this capability. And Nale, who in his unhinged mind, was doing everything to _prevent_ Desolations from ever happening again had excellent reasons to want Gavilar, who tried to _cause_ the same dead. But since Gavilar wasn't likely to write  his own death warrant, Nale could only move against him indirectly, so he made sure that the Parshendi had a perfect tool to eliminate Gavilar, once they learned about his sinister intentions.

 

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My spheres are on an Unmade , or part of an Unmade. Also I doubt size has anything to do with perfect gems

Well, some of the Unmade, like the Thrill and Ashertmarn(?) are huge, so I do think that size of the gems that they can be trapped in reflects that. Yelig-nar, OTOH, is human-sized.

Edited by Isilel
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10 hours ago, earthexile said:

We know that an Unmade can fit in a very small sphere, Aesudan and Amaram could swallow theirs. I think the King's Drop was just big because it was a spectacular display piece, not because perfect gems have to be large.

We have no indication that all nine unmade are of equal "size."  Yalig-nar only provided a large power boost to a single individual.  The thrill effected entire armies but Ba-Ado-Mishram connected to the entire parshe people.   It stands to reason that she is a much greater spren. 

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On 30/06/2020 at 3:44 AM, thejopen27 said:

In the afternoon of the day he died, Gavilar offers the gem containing Ba-ado-Mishram to Eshonai with the intention to return the Listener gods and the cycle of desolations.

  1. We have no idea how serious he was about that offer. He may have hoped for an entirely different reaction.
  2. If the Heralds were in on it, we can be quite sure that he did not want the desolations to restart. Gavilar being a member of an organization does not allow us to assume that he shared that organization's goals.
On 30/06/2020 at 3:44 AM, thejopen27 said:

In Szeth’s prologue in Way of Kings we see Gavilar give the gem to Szeth and tell him not to let the Parshendi have it.

Rather sensible. I think it is most plausible to assume that he was abusing the Sons of Honor for his own ends, which did involve rekindling bonds and oaths but presumably not the desolations.

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3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Rather sensible. I think it is most plausible to assume that he was abusing the Sons of Honor for his own ends, which did involve rekindling bonds and oaths but presumably not the desolations.

So, this has been my theory since WoR's Eshonai's prologue and Taravangian's PoV chapter, where we learned that Gavilar convinced him of the imminent Final Desolation on the night of his death, and IIRC I have posted it here at some point too:

Gavilar absolutely was using the SoH for his own ends and knew the truth about the Heralds, but he was indeed trying to start a _false_ Desolation. The reason being that he was a recepient of the Stormfather's visions, knew that the Final Desolation was inevitably coming and wanted Rosharan humanity to recognize their danger and become united and prepared whilst dealing with the lesser threat. We have seen that neither Jasnah nor Dalinar have been able to convince people of the impending Desolation and parshmen's connection to the voidbringers until the Everstorm. Well, a false Desolation would have solved all this and allowed humanity to gain experience dealing with Regals and Unmade, motivated the Radiant spren to bond again, yet also wouldn't have forced them to immediately contend with the Fused and Odium's direct interference, as actually happened. Gavilar's False Desolation was supposed to be a general rehearsal before the actual potentially world-ending conflict with Odium and the Fused.  I also think that while Gavilar did managed to find a trapped Unmade, it wasn't  Bo-Ado-Mishram, because he could have just released her to achieve his goals and wouldn't have needed to bother with the Parshendi otherwise. IMHO, Gavilar hoped that when offered a chance to regain their former glory, the Parshendi would help him  locate and release BAM. Which, along with his ignorance of Nale and his Skybreakers' millenia-spanning mission proved his undoing. YMMV.

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