Becoming Honor

[ShrubSeph]

When Preservation and Ruin were splintered, someone took it up again. My theory is that someone wil take up Honor. I think If someone does, it will either be Dalinar or Taln. Do you think this theory makes sense? 

[BringerOfLight]

I think Brandon might pull something similar to what he pulled in Mistborn- we might EXPECT Dalinar to Ascend as Honor, but in classic Sanderson fashion, it might not be the person you'd expect to Ascend. Plus, I don't think any Ascension will be happening until the second arc- and since Jasnah's book is at least PLANNED to be last, I predict that she'll ascend as Honor. We already see her as the ruler of Alethkar, so why can't she go a step further and become a god?

[Honorless]

I don't think he'll use the same solution again. Besides, something would need to contain Odium's power even if he's Splintered. I think we'll see some wonky stuff in this one.

[BringerOfLight]

2 minutes ago, R J said:

I don't think he'll use the same solution again. Besides, something would need to contain Odium's power even if he's Splintered. I think we'll see some wonky stuff in this one.

Maybe someone will Ascend as Honor AND Odium, similar to Preservation and Ruin being merged into Harmony?

[+Oltux72]

36 minutes ago, BringerOfLight said:

Maybe someone will Ascend as Honor AND Odium, similar to Preservation and Ruin being merged into Harmony?

That would be a shard with a potentially terrifying agenda.

Like eradicating whole continents for being insufficiently brutal in torturing an oathbreaker to death.

[Elegy]

(Mistborn)

The difference is that Ruin and Preservation were not Splintered, they were still complete (well, as far as being a 16th of Adonalsium is complete), they just lost their vessels when they died, so they could just be taken and merged. It's not as simple with Honor, since that Shard was broken into countless pieces, some of them having gained sapience or sentience since, so combining it all back into the same thing would be nearly impossible.

That said, it would be theoretically possible to piece the thing back together, in one form or another:

Quote

Questioner

Can it be restored? The Splinters...

Brandon Sanderson

Um, Splinters, can they be restored to... So it is, that is a yes, but restoring them will not restore Honor, the Vessel of Honor, right. They would restore Honor the Shard if this were to happen, but a new Vessel would have to take it.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

I agree that it would logically be Dalinar or Taln (Taln being my favorite guess), but then again, I could imagine a lot of smaller chunks of Honor being pieced back together so that several main characters have Shards (like, Stormfather-sized ones).

[ShrubSeph]

 

18 minutes ago, Elegy said:

 

  Hide contents

 

 I agree that it would logically be Dalinar or Taln (Taln being my favorite guess), but then again, I could imagine a lot of smaller chunks of Honor being pieced back together so that several main characters have Shards (like, Stormfather-sized ones).

Or their Spren become more powerful

[Elegy]

1 minute ago, Kings_way said:

Or their Spren become more powerful

That would indeed be interesting! I wonder what it would do with the bond and the abilities it gives, since the spren wouldn't be the same kind as before. But for the same reason, it would also change the spren's personality in most cases, which is why I it seems kind of unlikely that Brandon will do it ... he knows that the readers have come to know and love the spren as they are. And making them change throught learning/character development (as Pattern has done over the course of the last two books for sure) is different from changing them by adding new Investiture. But it sure is a fascinating thought!

[---]

Plot twist: Tanavast's cognitive shadow separates from the Stormfather and drinks up Honor

 

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That would be a shard with a potentially terrifying agenda.

Like eradicating whole continents for being insufficiently brutal in torturing an oathbreaker to death.

 

3 hours ago, BringerOfLight said:

Maybe someone will Ascend as Honor AND Odium, similar to Preservation and Ruin being merged into Harmony?

yeah, I was thinking that at first when Dalinar was all "I am Unity" that he would somehow drink up Honor and Odium, but I think that would be plenty different than having Preservation and Ruin, which kinda...counteract? eachother? kinda? I'm waiting to see more of Cultivation and what she's all about. 

I'm fully expecting Dalinar to not Ascend and to die by the end of the first 5 with a big part being because a lot of people expect him to Ascend.

[Halyo_Alex]

6 hours ago, Elegy said:

That would indeed be interesting! I wonder what it would do with the bond and the abilities it gives, since the spren wouldn't be the same kind as before. But for the same reason, it would also change the spren's personality in most cases, which is why I it seems kind of unlikely that Brandon will do it ... he knows that the readers have come to know and love the spren as they are. And making them change throught learning/character development (as Pattern has done over the course of the last two books for sure) is different from changing them by adding new Investiture. But it sure is a fascinating thought!

I've actually thought something like this would be the case for some time. The exact means to this end I'm unsure on, but I feel like it could be a fascinating way to have things end (and importantly, in a very different way to Mistborn).

I wonder if it will start in the end of book 5 with the Honorblades being consumed by the matching Spren of the main 10 (kaladin/dalinar/shallan/jasnah/lift/renarin/etc, etc.) We know that being bonded to a spren and the matching honorblade would improve your Surgebinding power by some amount, but what if that Honorblade was fused (aha) into an actual Spren? The Honorblade bond is shallow and consumes "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight, and doesn't allow stormlight healing... Adding their investiture to a Spren would fix that. It would be like a pseudo "6th oath" level of power boost, i guess?

[---]

4 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I've actually thought something like this would be the case for some time. The exact means to this end I'm unsure on, but I feel like it could be a fascinating way to have things end (and importantly, in a very different way to Mistborn).

I wonder if it will start in the end of book 5 with the Honorblades being consumed by the matching Spren of the main 10 (kaladin/dalinar/shallan/jasnah/lift/renarin/etc, etc.) We know that being bonded to a spren and the matching honorblade would improve your Surgebinding power by some amount, but what if that Honorblade was fused (aha) into an actual Spren? The Honorblade bond is shallow and consumes "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight, and doesn't allow stormlight healing... Adding their investiture to a Spren would fix that. It would be like a pseudo "6th oath" level of power boost, i guess?

where is it said that it doesn't allow healing? Szeth healed from wounds while he was bonded to the Windrunner Honor blade

[Halyo_Alex]

1 minute ago, Illwei said:

where is it said that it doesn't allow healing? Szeth healed from wounds while he was bonded to the Windrunner Honor blade

Quote

In addition Szeth mentions that his connection to the Honorblade will not let him heal from a Shardblade wound unlike Kaladin's Surgebinding.^[13] However, Szeth does heal from a Shardblade wound in his final fight with Kaladin at the Battle of Narak.

From the Coppermind page on Honorblades. Guess it's a maybe??

[Master Silver]

yeah honor blades allow healing... But I agree that the power of the honor blades needs to be used or passed on in some way. Likely a restored oath pact with the next 5 books being the final desolation.

[Darth_Hel]

The best theory I’ve come up with is that Dalinar takes Honor and Szeth takes Odium, but Szeth’s oath is binding on the shard as well. So, Szeth’s commitment to follow Dalinar would allow shackles on Odium’s actions without requiring Odium to mess with Honor’s intent.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Darth_Hel

[Master Silver]

Even if Dalinar is somehow able to take up the Shard Honor after it has been shattered, Odium will still be the stronger of the two Shards and he has thousands of years experience. It would be much like in Mistborn. But if Honor and Cultivation couldn't defeat Odium, I don't see how Dalinar picking up Honor gives them the win (not that it hurts their cause).

[Watchcry]

3 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Even if Dalinar is somehow able to take up the Shard Honor after it has been shattered, Odium will still be the stronger of the two Shards and he has thousands of years experience. It would be much like in Mistborn. But if Honor and Cultivation couldn't defeat Odium, I don't see how Dalinar picking up Honor gives them the win (not that it hurts their cause).

I partly agree.  Those who have been vessels for longer are more susceptible to the intent of the shard.  If you remember in Misborn a certain person was less bound by the intent than the other,  which worked out for the protagonists. Dalinar would have more of his facilities about him instead of be a slave to the pure intent of honor.  After all,  that is what lead to Tanavasts demise.

[Halyo_Alex]

16 minutes ago, Watchcry said:

I partly agree.  Those who have been vessels for longer are more susceptible to the intent of the shard.  If you remember in Misborn a certain person was less bound by the intent than the other,  which worked out for the protagonists. Dalinar would have more of his facilities about him instead of be a slave to the pure intent of honor.  After all,  that is what lead to Tanavasts demise.

Being bound by Intent is also part of what I like about the "honor will be reforged as 10 sub-shards" theory. There's variety, different perspectives, like the 10 orders themselves. If one sub-shard can't act to enact a certain solution, another might be able to instead.

[Watchcry]

7 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Being bound by Intent is also part of what I like about the "honor will be reforged as 10 sub-shards" theory. There's variety, different perspectives, like the 10 orders themselves. If one sub-shard can't act to enact a certain solution, another might be able to instead.

Haven't heard of that theory,  but sounds good. Plus there'd be checks and balances. 

[Master Silver]

I like the ten sub shard theory, in some way that would just be making them stronger versions of the heralds but bound by the intent of a Shard, or more likely their oaths in whatever order they are. In some ways Nale has taken the first step down that road having bonded a spren of the Sky Breakers and progressed to the 5th ideal. I'm imagine Seth with kill Nale and claim his honor blade. Somehow I think all ten blades will need to be recovered un-bonded or passed on and modified for the 10 sub shard theory to work. How heavily invested is a sub-Shard though? How does an Elantrian compare to a knights radiant of the 5th ideal? Do sub-shards have the same limitations as the Shards?