Who Will Swear the 5th Ideal

[Yolenlightweaver]

I have been wondering for awhile what development we will see in the characters that we have been following. We last see Kaladin trying to swear the 4th ideal, with others being at their various points. Will any of the characters we know now get to the point of their respective 5th ideal, or is that a goal that is only extremely rare. We know Skybreakers haven't had someone make that oath in a very long time and I am assuming that is the same for the other orders. What order will swear it first in the story, and do we know who that person is or will Brandon make it extremely rare in the plot?

[BringerOfLight]

I think it can be assumed that our main characters will eventually get to the 5th Ideal. After all, they are leaders in their respective orders. (except Szeth but he's the only good guy in his order)

[Aminar]

I suspect Dalinar will move through them fastest. He's the oldest of the radiants we see often, and has probably the least change left in him. His progression kind of needs to be the fastest. Shallan will likely take a lot longer. 

[Rushu42]

12 minutes ago, Aminar said:

I suspect Dalinar will move through them fastest. He's the oldest of the radiants we see often, and has probably the least change left in him. His progression kind of needs to be the fastest. Shallan will likely take a lot longer. 

My personal theory is that Dalinar kinda already has. I think that his whole "I am Unity" could have been the fifth ideal - that's why the Stormfather was so surprised: because he skipped the other ones. There isn't a ton of evidence to back it up, so it's more of a headcanon, but still.

[Aminar]

39 minutes ago, Rushu42 said:

My personal theory is that Dalinar kinda already has. I think that his whole "I am Unity" could have been the fifth ideal - that's why the Stormfather was so surprised: because he skipped the other ones. There isn't a ton of evidence to back it up, so it's more of a headcanon, but still.

I still think that's his actual Third Ideal. The timing on everything is so off that I think Brandon's pulling a fast one. Like... Why would the "These words are accpeted" come so late. 

[Karger]

I think it will be Kaladin.  Dalinar Oath five seems like it will have some kind of cosmic implications and Kaladin was the first so narratively it makes sense to make him the last.

[thejopen27]

Where are they now:

Windrunners -
Kaladin = stuck on the edge of the 4th, but on the 3rd
Teft = Just swore the 3rd and earned his blade
Lopen = Just swore the 2nd and became a Windrunner
The rest of Bridge 4 = Still first ideal squires (except maybe Drehy and Rlain and some of the new recruits)

Skybreakers - 
Nale = 5th ideal skybreaker but broken and too rigid and strict, controlling the others, none have gone past the 4th
Szeth = Recently swore the 3rd Ideal, is just meeting his spren and will start to train in Division
Others = Lots of 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and squires sworn to Nale or controlled by him

Dustbringer -
Malata = Likely a 3rd ideal radiant due to her sword and her use of Division
Ash = Likely has not met her spren yet but may have attracted one (my speculation)

Edgedancer - 
Lift = 3rd Ideal radiant with a blade and all surges
Adolin = May be awakening his dead Cultivation spren blade, no oaths

Truthwatchers - 
Stump = unknown but probably at least the first ideal
Ym = Deceased but maybe the first Ideal
Renarin = Unknown how he is different due to his spren being corrupted by Sja Anat but may be a 3rd Ideal Radiant.

Lightweaver -
Shallan = Likely of the third Ideal, but it's confused by her regression and recovery. Must have been 3rd ideal as a youth, but regressed to basically nothing. Has stated four deep truths since the Cryptics returned to her. I suspect one to reawaken Pattern, one each to reswear the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. I think the truth "I am terrified" that first gets her into Shademar was just to reawaken the bond that had been basically dead.
Tien = Deceased, likely a proto-radiant who hadn't yet sworn the 1st ideal
Elhokar = Deceased, killed on the verge of swearing the 1st Ideal
Vathah = A squire to Shallan, has likely not sworn any ideals
Hoid = A 1st Ideal Lightweaver who bonded with the spren in the process of bonding Elhokar before he died.

Elsecallers -
Jasnah = Only known Elsecaller, likely of the 4th ideal making her the only new Radiant of the 4th Ideal

Willshaper -
Venli = Only known Willshaper, only of the 1st Ideal but the first ever Singer Radiant
Eshonai = Originally attacted Timbre, died before swearing any oaths

Stoneward -
Taln = The herald of the Stonewards but likely has not yet drawn a Stoneward Spren

Bondsmith -
Dalinar = A 3rd Ideal Radiant sworn to the Storm Father. I doubt he skipped Ideals as he didn't get plate from all those Glory Spren
2 others yet to emerge = The Sibling and the Nightwatcher remain unbonded

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by thejopen27
Added Eshonai

[Philomath]

I think there is a good chance all or nearly all of our main characters do say the 5th oath. Was it rare among the old Knights Radiant? I don’t remember. If there are any who don’t, my money is on Szeth. I think he’s likely to die (again). Maybe while trying to do his 4th ideal or just after it. I don’t know. He just seems even more likely to die than Kaladin. Especially since he has already basically come to terms with dying. 

35 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

Where are they now:

Windrunners -
Kaladin = stuck on the edge of the 4th, but on the 3rd

Lightweaver -
Shallan = Likely of the third Ideal, but it's confused by her regression and recovery. Must have been 3rd ideal as a youth, but regressed to basically nothing. Has stated three deep 4 deep truths since the Cryptics returned to her. I suspect one to reawaken Pattern, one each to reswear the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.
Tien = Deceased, likely a proto-radiant who hadn't yet sworn the 1st ideal

There is a WoB somewhere saying Shallan is one further oath than Kaladin. So she is on her 4th. I actually think she’ll swear her 5th oath before Kaladin does his as well. 

[Chiberty]

2 hours ago, Rushu42 said:

My personal theory is that Dalinar kinda already has. I think that his whole "I am Unity" could have been the fifth ideal - that's why the Stormfather was so surprised: because he skipped the other ones. There isn't a ton of evidence to back it up, so it's more of a headcanon, but still.

Quote

Hoidonalsium

In that one long rejection of Odium, how many Oaths did Dalinar swear before merging the Realms? And is "I am Unity" the fifth.

Brandon Sanderson

No, that is not an Oath. He swore one ideal in that experience.

Hoidonalsium

Okay. How many Oaths is he on?

Brandon Sanderson

The number you think. So, he should have just finished three, right? Or maybe four. I'll have to go look. It's the number that you think it is. I'm not being sneaky on you. There's nothing sneaky there. He doesn't get armor, so I can't remember where he is... He should be at three. "Life before death." "I will unite instead of divide." "I will stand up each time I fall." Yeah, so he's done three.

Oathbringer Glasgow signing (Dec. 2, 2017)

 

[Rushu42]

36 minutes ago, ChickenLiberty said:

Hoidonalsium

In that one long rejection of Odium, how many Oaths did Dalinar swear before merging the Realms? And is "I am Unity" the fifth.

Brandon Sanderson

No, that is not an Oath. He swore one ideal in that experience.

Hoidonalsium

Okay. How many Oaths is he on?

Brandon Sanderson

The number you think. So, he should have just finished three, right? Or maybe four. I'll have to go look. It's the number that you think it is. I'm not being sneaky on you. There's nothing sneaky there. He doesn't get armor, so I can't remember where he is... He should be at three. "Life before death." "I will unite instead of divide." "I will stand up each time I fall." Yeah, so he's done three.

Well, there goes that theory. It was a long shot anyway. Thanks for the WoB.

[+Harrycrapper]

1 hour ago, thejopen27 said:

Truthwatchers - 
Stump = unknown but probably at least the first ideal
Ym = Deceased but maybe the first Ideal
Renarin = Unknown how he is different due to his spren being corrupted by Sja Anat but may be a 3rd Ideal Radiant.

I think Stump and Ym had to of at least sworn the 2nd ideal. Wyndle didn't seem to think Lift could heal using Regrowth in her first interlude until she had progressed. I think she had to swear the 2nd ideal before she healed Gawx. I know Lift isn't the same order, so I may be wrong there and Truthwatchers can do Regrowth sooner than Edgedancers. Renarin didn't get it until later as well, but like you said he's an unknown variable. 

1 hour ago, thejopen27 said:

Lightweaver -
Shallan = Likely of the third Ideal, but it's confused by her regression and recovery. Must have been 3rd ideal as a youth, but regressed to basically nothing. Has stated three deep 4 deep truths since the Cryptics returned to her. I suspect one to reawaken Pattern, one each to reswear the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.
Tien = Deceased, likely a proto-radiant who hadn't yet sworn the 1st ideal
Elhokar = Deceased, killed on the verge of swearing the 1st Ideal
Vathah = A squire to Shallan, has likely not sworn any ideals

I think Shallan is on the 4th ideal. She has given 3 truths along with the 1st ideal when she was younger. Lightweavers(Shallan in particular) are weird though, so the literal amount of truths might not equate to the level of ideal. Also, you can't inhale Stormlight without having sworn at least the first ideal, so Vathah is at least on the first.

The one thing I've been wondering is if you actually have to say "Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination." Almost none of the main characters have done this onscreen before infusing Stormlight. Some like Kaladin hadn't even seemed to have heard it before someone else(Teft) mentioned it. I don't know how Shallan would have known the ideal as a little girl, especially with a decidedly anti Radiant mother. Hoid didn't even say the full oath, he just say "Life before Death, little one." 

 

[NukeTheOcean]

2 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

Lightweaver -
Shallan = Likely of the third Ideal, but it's confused by her regression and recovery. Must have been 3rd ideal as a youth, but regressed to basically nothing. Has stated three deep 4 deep truths since the Cryptics returned to her. I suspect one to reawaken Pattern, one each to reswear the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.
Tien = Deceased, likely a proto-radiant who hadn't yet sworn the 1st ideal
Elhokar = Deceased, killed on the verge of swearing the 1st Ideal
Vathah = A squire to Shallan, has likely not sworn any ideals

Think you left out Hoid here, not sure if intentional.

[ShrubSeph]

2 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

Willshaper -

Venli = Only known Willshaper, only of the 1st Ideal but the first ever Singer Radiant

I don't remember Venli swearing 1st in OB, but I probably just missed it. 

Also, the way that timbre could go in Venli's gemheart makes me think that she isn't the first.

[Karger]

22 minutes ago, Kings_way said:

I don't remember Venli swearing 1st in OB, but I probably just missed it. 

It is during the Brandavilanch a lot was going on.

22 minutes ago, Kings_way said:

Also, the way that timbre could go in Venli's gemheart makes me think that she isn't the first.

She is not.  There is a WoB about why spren don't bond singers.  I can't find it though.

[---]

2 hours ago, Philomath said:

my money is on Szeth. I think he’s likely to die (again). Maybe while trying to do his 4th ideal or just after it. I don’t know. He just seems even more likely to die than Kaladin. Especially since he has already basically come to terms with dying. 

I don't think Szeth has come to terms with dying? He seems to have felt helpless before and kind of wanted to die, but after becoming a Skybreaker he seems to not want to die again because he is taking back his life?

[thejopen27]

double post

Edited June 25, 2020 by thejopen27

[thejopen27]

4 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

I think Stump and Ym had to of at least sworn the 2nd ideal. Wyndle didn't seem to think Lift could heal using Regrowth in her first interlude until she had progressed. I think she had to swear the 2nd ideal before she healed Gawx. I know Lift isn't the same order, so I may be wrong there and Truthwatchers can do Regrowth sooner than Edgedancers. Renarin didn't get it until later as well, but like you said he's an unknown variable. 

Different orders get their surges at different times. Ym didn't know his sprens name or what it was but was healing, Stump didn't even realize she was healing people. I bet Truthwatchers get their healing earlier than Edgedancers.

4 hours ago, NukeTheOcean said:

Think you left out Hoid here, not sure if intentional.

I did forget Hoid, I forgot about him while I was trying to remember if Vathah had said the first ideal.

5 hours ago, Philomath said:

I think there is a good chance all or nearly all of our main characters do say the 5th oath. Was it rare among the old Knights Radiant? I don’t remember. If there are any who don’t, my money is on Szeth. I think he’s likely to die (again). Maybe while trying to do his 4th ideal or just after it. I don’t know. He just seems even more likely to die than Kaladin. Especially since he has already basically come to terms with dying. 

There is a WoB somewhere saying Shallan is one further oath than Kaladin. So she is on her 4th. I actually think she’ll swear her 5th oath before Kaladin does his as well. 

I think the nine characters who gathered around Dalinar at the end of Oathbringer are the new heads of the orders and will all achieve the 5th ideal. I couldn't find him ever committing to an answer on Shallan. I don't think Shallan has ever gotten close to having plate and hasn't even seemed to show hints of it yet like Kaladin and Dalinar have. If she was a 4th Ideal Lightweaver, then I think she still needs to reswear it.

Edited June 25, 2020 by thejopen27

[Chiberty]

48 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

I think the nine characters who gathered around Dalinar at the end of Oathbringer are the new heads of the orders and will all achieve the 5th ideal. I couldn't find him ever committing to an answer on Shallan. I don't think Shallan has ever gotten close to having plate and hasn't even seemed to show hints of it yet like Kaladin and Dalinar have. If she was a 4th Ideal Lightweaver, then I think she still needs to reswear it.

Quote

tganchero (paraphrased)

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan was a step higher than Kaladin.

Words of Radiance Lexington signing (March 18, 2014)

 

[---]

2 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

I think the nine characters who gathered around Dalinar at the end of Oathbringer are the new heads of the orders and will all achieve the 5th ideal. I couldn't find him ever committing to an answer on Shallan. I don't think Shallan has ever gotten close to having plate and hasn't even seemed to show hints of it yet like Kaladin and Dalinar have. If she was a 4th Ideal Lightweaver, then I think she still needs to reswear it.

Er, Are you talking about during the fight? or is there something I'm missing. because were two of the nine not Ash and Taln? I mean, I know they get books in the back 5 so...but am I missing something or is that what you mean?

[thejopen27]

8 hours ago, Illwei said:

Er, Are you talking about during the fight? or is there something I'm missing. because were two of the nine not Ash and Taln? I mean, I know they get books in the back 5 so...but am I missing something or is that what you mean?

Yes, I think Ash will be our lead Dustbringer character and Taln will swear to his own order and be our lead Stoneward. I get the sense from Ash that she doesn't care for being known for art, beauty, and light and seems to prefer to destroy things. There were nine people around Dalinar at the gap in the Thaylen City walls, Kaladin-Windrunner, Szeth-Skybreaker, *Ash*-Dustbringer, Lift-Edgedancer, Renarin-Truthwatcher, Shallan-Lightweaver, Jasnah-Elsecaller, Venli-Willshaper (in the background), *Taln*-Stoneward, plus himself as Bondsmith. he looks around and sees only the seven humans he already knows and says "There should be three more" and then right away Taln and Ash stumble up to him. He doesn't count Venli as she is not showing any signs of being Radiant but somehow Dalinar knew there should be ten people present, likely one for each order of Radiant. Dustbringer is the only order not counted for, Shallan is already the Lightweaver, and Ash seems much more into destruction than creation at the moment.

 

9 hours ago, ChickenLiberty said:

 

If she is one oath higher than Kaladin (the 4th Ideal), then she is still repressing it and hasn't resworn it yet, because she hasn't said a truth since she admitted her sword was different and she hasn't demonstrated any ability to create plate. Maybe you're right and Lightweavers don't have plate...

Edited June 25, 2020 by thejopen27

[GoWibble]

52 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

Yes, I think Ash will be our lead Dustbringer character and Taln will swear to his own order and be our lead Stoneward. I get the sense from Ash that she doesn't care for being known for art, beauty, and light and seems to prefer to destroy things. There were nine people around Dalinar at the gap in the Thaylen City walls, Kaladin-Windrunner, Szeth-Skybreaker, *Ash*-Dustbringer, Lift-Edgedancer, Renarin-Truthwatcher, Shallan-Lightweaver, Jasnah-Elsecaller, Venli-Willshaper (in the background), *Taln*-Stoneward, plus himself as Bondsmith. he looks around and sees only the seven humans he already knows and says "There should be three more" and then right away Taln and Ash stumble up to him. He doesn't count Venli as she is not showing any signs of being Radiant but somehow Dalinar knew there should be ten people present, likely one for each order of Radiant. Dustbringer is the only order not counted for, Shallan is already the Lightweaver, and Ash seems much more into destruction than creation at the moment.

 

If she is one oath higher than Kaladin (the 4th Ideal), then she is still repressing it and hasn't resworn it yet, because she hasn't said a truth since she admitted her sword was different and she hasn't demonstrated any ability to create plate. Maybe you're right and Lightweavers don't have plate...

So, just because she 'unlocks' Plate, that doesn't mean that she knows how to use it/ summon it for the first time. Maybe Lightweavers have to find out for themselves (instead of their spren telling them something like "But I could be a sword..."

Edited June 25, 2020 by GoWibble

[Honorless]

17 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

Where are they now:

Windrunners -
Kaladin = stuck on the edge of the 4th, but on the 3rd
Teft = Just swore the 3rd and earned his blade
Lopen = Just swore the 2nd and became a Windrunner
The rest of Bridge 4 = Still first ideal squires (except maybe Drehy and Rlain and some of the new recruits)

Skybreakers - 
Nale = 5th ideal skybreaker but broken and too rigid and strict, controlling the others, none have gone past the 4th
Szeth = Recently swore the 3rd Ideal, is just meeting his spren and will start to train in Division
Others = Lots of 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and squires sworn to Nale or controlled by him

Dustbringer -
Malata = Likely a 3rd ideal radiant due to her sword and her use of Division
Ash = Likely has not met her spren yet but may have attracted one (my speculation)

Edgedancer - 
Lift = 3rd Ideal radiant with a blade and all surges
Adolin = May be awakening his dead Cultivation spren blade, no oaths

Truthwatchers - 
Stump = unknown but probably at least the first ideal
Ym = Deceased but maybe the first Ideal
Renarin = Unknown how he is different due to his spren being corrupted by Sja Anat but may be a 3rd Ideal Radiant.

Lightweaver -
Shallan = Likely of the third Ideal, but it's confused by her regression and recovery. Must have been 3rd ideal as a youth, but regressed to basically nothing. Has stated four deep truths since the Cryptics returned to her. I suspect one to reawaken Pattern, one each to reswear the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. I think the truth "I am terrified" that first gets her into Shademar was just to reawaken the bond that had been basically dead.
Tien = Deceased, likely a proto-radiant who hadn't yet sworn the 1st ideal
Elhokar = Deceased, killed on the verge of swearing the 1st Ideal
Vathah = A squire to Shallan, has likely not sworn any ideals
Hoid = A 1st Ideal Lightweaver who bonded with the spren in the process of bonding Elhokar before he died.

Elsecallers -
Jasnah = Only known Elsecaller, likely of the 4th ideal making her the only new Radiant of the 4th Ideal

Willshaper -
Venli = Only known Willshaper, only of the 1st Ideal but the first ever Singer Radiant

Stoneward -
Taln = The herald of the Stonewards but likely has not yet drawn a Stoneward Spren

Bondsmith -
Dalinar = A 3rd Ideal Radiant sworn to the Storm Father. I doubt he skipped Ideals as he didn't get plate from all those Glory Spren
2 others yet to emerge = The Sibling and the Nightwatcher remain unbonded

Hey, now if we're counting people who attracted spren, then count Eshonai as well

Kaladin is stuck, so is Shallan. Hmm... I think Jasnah, because her personality and the nature of the Elsecallers' Ideals will be the first. She's only a step down anyway. Then there's Taln, who I feel, once he's regained his mind, will just do a speedrun and make everyone else feel inadequate.

[thejopen27]

3 hours ago, R J said:

Hey, now if we're counting people who attracted spren, then count Eshonai as well

Kaladin is stuck, so is Shallan. Hmm... I think Jasnah, because her personality and the nature of the Elsecallers' Ideals will be the first. She's only a step down anyway. Then there's Taln, who I feel, once he's regained his mind, will just do a speedrun and make everyone else feel inadequate.

I would be shocked if Kaladin doesn't swear his 4th Ideal in Rhythm of War. I would also be surprised if we don't see Shallan and Dalinar achieve the 4th Ideal. I imagine Jasnah will then reveal that she's been 4th Ideal with Plate the whole time. 

[Yolenlightweaver]

The WOB says that as of WoR, Shallan is ahead of Kaladin, so who has more oaths now based on Lightweaver/Windrunner comparison at the end of Oathbringer?