the way of kings Should Jasnah killed the 4 men in The Way Of Kings?

[Death spren]

Should Jasnah Killed the 4 men?

She sort the men out and killed all 4 when 1 was only needed to be killed.

But any defenceless woman could have been in Jasnah position (by accident) and been beaten, robbed and killed by those men Jasnah killed.

[Honorless]

*yikes*

I'm not gonna get into a philosophical debate, so my only post on this is gonna be this.

Nope

I'm pretty anti-execution, especially execution on the spot. She should've had them taken in.

[+Oltux72]

34 minutes ago, Death spren said:

Should Jasnah Killed the 4 men?

She should not have made a lesson out of this. One does not kill people for teaching purposes. Yet, had she been in that situation for any other reason, surely yes, they deserved it.

[Death spren]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

She should not have made a lesson out of this. One does not kill people for teaching purposes. Yet, had she been in that situation for any other reason, surely yes, they deserved it.

My thoughts as well (;

[IcaroRibeiro]

Her intentions were very evil, she did that because she felt like her lessons and wisdom had more value than the bandits life

If it was self defense it would be alright 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

Her intentions were very evil, she did that because she felt like her lessons and wisdom had more value than the bandits life

She was going to kill them anyway.  She just also took the opportunity to educate Shallan.

I personally think that no she should not kill them.  She does not know the broader context that made them seek criminal life.  Many of them could have been forced into this through poverty, blackmail or familial ties(like in most crimes today).  However she does make a good point in that defenseless people should not have to live in fear.  Also since no one has done this.  Welcome to the shard!

Edited June 22, 2020 by Karger

[Ascended]

Perhaps Jahsnas past was triggered by these predators. Law enforcement was doing nothing she had the ability and removed killers and possible sequel predators off the street. Can we be sure that jail time would gave occurred or been helpful?

[PiedPiper]

I think we need to consider the cultural context: we all agree, as members of our Earthen society, that Jasnah should have arrested them or at least should only have killed the one. Of course, then we deal with the dilemma of choosing which one to kill, and who is Jasnah to decide which man deserves to die?

So, if this happened on Earth, I would definitely prosecute Jasnah, seeing as only the first could have been interpreted as self-defense.

However, Vorin sensibilities are very different from ours, and it seems from Shallan's research that scholars and ardents think about this differently than we do: as long as the actions of the aggressor can be viewed as righteous, the result is worth it. It's a very interesting way to interpret Journey Before Destination -- which, before the Hierocracy, was a Vorin tenet, and it could easily be argued that it still is (see example about Jasnah's actions being justified), even if they hadn't used similar words in thousands of years.

It's also important to remember here that Vorinism is a culture as much as a religion, and the rules of her society apply to Jasnah regardless of whether she believes in the Almighty. Think about why she covers her safehand -- it's a social construct as much as a religious one, similar to how laws can be based in religion but still apply to everyone who lives in the places where they take effect.

My conclusion: it would definitely be wrong on Earth, and many individuals on Roshar (e.g. Shallan) might also feel that Jasnah acted immorally, but the location is the only thing that really matters here, and Jasnah did it in Kharbranth, a Vorin city.

[Karger]

29 minutes ago, PiedPeterPiper said:

However, Vorin sensibilities are very different from ours, and it seems from Shallan's research that scholars and ardents think about this differently than we do: as long as the actions of the aggressor can be viewed as righteous, the result is worth it. It's a very interesting way to interpret Journey Before Destination -- which, before the Hierocracy, was a Vorin tenet, and it could easily be argued that it still is (see example about Jasnah's actions being justified), even if they hadn't used similar words in thousands of years.

I did not get that impression at all.  Shallan only mentions three of the philosophies she researched that might agree with Jasnah.  She does not mention any of the ones that indicate that her actions were wrong.

[PiedPiper]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

I did not get that impression at all.  Shallan only mentions three of the philosophies she researched that might agree with Jasnah.  She does not mention any of the ones that indicate that her actions were wrong.

Shouldn't that be indicative of a general agreement among philosophical authorities? Shallan disagreed with Jasnah and the scholars, so she of all people would be more motivated to try to find texts that agreed with her -- and she should be able to in a place like the Palanaeum. The fact that she acknowledged the conclusion of the scholars (even if she didn't agree with them) leads me to believe that that there's a general consensus among Vorins about this, and that according to their philosophies, Jasnah was in the right.

Edited June 22, 2020 by PiedPeterPiper

[Duke of Lizards]

No, my moral compass says no she shouldn’t have done that. As a reader, however, I love it because it illustrates Jasnah’s cold logic and gives you a glimpse of just how damaged she is. I can’t wait to read her book in the back 5. 

[GriffinMaze]

Nope. There were many other options that didn't involve killing them with Jasnah's power level. 

But if people aren't clear on this, we as readers aren't generally supposed to agree with Jasnah, we are supposed to be conflicted by her, She's a radiant but she's pretty evil but she's on the good guys side. Her opinion on how to deal with the Heralds/Fused/Parshmen in OB is evidence of this 

Edited June 22, 2020 by GriffinMaze

[Karger]

1 hour ago, PiedPeterPiper said:

Shouldn't that be indicative of a general agreement among philosophical authorities?

She was trying to find philosophies that agreed with her actions but disagreed with Jasnah's.  Also I think we only got the ones that shocked her the most because they provided good arguments for actions she finds abhorrent.  We also know from Sigzil that the Shin believe all violence to be evil, the Emuli believe that it is crass and to be avoided and Jasnah does in fact read Shin authors(from her reading recommendations).  

[Elsecaller_17.5]

This is a tricky question. I'm going to argue in favor of Jasnahs decision. They deserved to die and if I came across such a scene and had the means to kill the offenders I would. It was cruel to force Shallan into the situation, but I think that's her only misstep. Even her motivations are mostly pure, she mentions that she felt she had taken advantage of King T's hospitality. I'll even support luring them into the trap because the guard and already refused to apprehend them. Now if she had lured them in without going to the guard first that would of been different, but I have no problem with her decision. 

[Pathfinder]

Been super swamped so will not be able to comment the way I would like to, but I figured I would jump on just long enough to add some context that I think is missing from this discussion. 

1. Taravangian, the king himself has tried to stop these men on numerous occasions. He has spoken to the guards. Ordered them to catch these men. Unfortunately Taravangian (appearingly) does not have much power in his own city. The guards are bribed not to patrol. Whether it is from a weathy benefactor or not, remains to be seen, but one thing is certain, those men were never going to see justice legally. 

2. The men surrounding Jasnah and Shallan had lethal intent. Shallan also confirmed they were no mere cut purses. The "prey" they hunted required the victims to be killed. They could not release affluent women unharmed especially when the men could be identified by the women. None of the men covered their faces. They knew if they were actually tried for their crimes, it would mean execution as per the law of the city. 

3. Multiple killings have occurred there before. So these are career criminals

4. Jasnah did not kill those men to teach a lesson. Jasnah did it to help Taravangian who based on the knowledge she had on him at the time (a kindly peacemaker) she greatly respected. If anything she felt she was remiss to not use the powers of the soulcaster more to help people (her words). Shallan was ancillary. It would have taken place had Shallan existed or not. 

 

All of these points are quotable taken right from the book. Personally Jasnah does not have self defense because she went out and purposefully looked for those individuals with what amounts to a gun. However, in the circumstance she was in, given the world she is in, and given we do know what her motivations were (she said so herself), I think she was justified. But the earlier points I made were not to argue that. Please feel free to feel however you all wish. Just wanted to provide added context. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Whether it is from a weathy benefactor or not, remains to be seen, but one thing is certain, those men were never going to see justice legally. 

I agree that under normal circumstances they would not but if Jasnah had trapped them(done the same thing except say turn the air to tar) I am fairly certain their convictions could have been attained legally considering their crime and her own testimony.

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

3. Multiple killings have occurred there before. So these are career criminals

Yes but that does not speak to their motivation.  Otherwise I agree with what you say.

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

I agree that under normal circumstances they would not but if Jasnah had trapped them(done the same thing except say turn the air to tar) I am fairly certain their convictions could have been attained legally considering their crime and her own testimony.

This part (as in what I am about to say, not regarding what you said), is conjecture, but if they had the funds to bribe the guards with enough motivation to ignore their own king, I feel Jasnah would be concerned that the same benefactor or monetary leverage could be applied in getting them out of jail. Also, I could see the rationale being, Jasnah knows (as Shallan confirmed), that the murder's actions will only end them up at a noose. She was merely cutting out the middle man, and willing to take ownership of the ramifications of such. Not excusing her actions, just throwing out possible thoughts/conclusions she could have come to. 

Quote

Yes but that does not speak to their motivation.  Otherwise I agree with what you say.

True there could be a whole host of motivations, but speaking to the concrete knowledge that Jasnah was acting on, these men have killed multiple times before, and in that instance seemed to be under no duress in their pursuit of killing Jasnah and Shallan. They were not even covered, so made no effort to hide who they were nor attempted to accomplish their goals in any other way than murder. Again, not saying that excuses anything, nor warrants it. Just providing some context. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

She was merely cutting out the middle man, and willing to take ownership of the ramifications of such. Not excusing her actions, just throwing out possible thoughts/conclusions she could have come to. 

Your analysis could easily be correct.  My retort to Jasnah is that something else might be going on like this WoB and that enforcing the system of justice rather then making your own could have more real benefits.

Quote

ccstat

Would Mraize have recognized mugshots of the "thugs" who accosted Jasnah and Shallan in WoK?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 9, 2015)

 

[Pathfinder]

21 minutes ago, Karger said:

Your analysis could easily be correct.  My retort to Jasnah is that something else might be going on like this WoB and that enforcing the system of justice rather then making your own could have more real benefits.

 

Interesting WoB. Those men could very well be funded by Mraize and Co. Or have no connections whatsoever. Interesting to hopefully read more!

[Greywatch]

I don't know if I would say she should have, but I'm perfectly okay with the decision and don't find it immoral.

[+Oltux72]

12 hours ago, GriffinMaze said:

Nope. There were many other options that didn't involve killing them with Jasnah's power level.

Not really. They are street bandits and presumably murderers. If they are arrested, tried and found guilty, they will be executed. Such is the law in that area. Or they will go free. Scaring them into changing their ways will hardly work.

[Goatbringer]

While I think that this is a hella philosophical debate that clearly hasn't been agreed upon (and probably never will be), I think that this scene apart from being right or wrong, was more of an indication to the audience what kind of a character Jasnah is: deliberate and calculating, with a fierce vengeful streak. The first time I read the scene I was also caught up in the umming and awwing over whether this was 'right', but on my third readthrough (this year), I found myself wondering what had been done to Jasnah in the past that made her take such deliberate action against men who would target women. 

As such, Jasnah is currently slated to be the flashback character for book 10, so I hope we get more hints at her past before that!

[ConfusedCow]

I think, Taravangian was trying to determine the extent or existence of her bond and powers.  Obviously, immoral the classic judge, jury and executioner.

 

[+Oltux72]

4 hours ago, Goatbringer said:

While I think that this is a hella philosophical debate that clearly hasn't been agreed upon (and probably never will be), I think that this scene apart from being right or wrong, was more of an indication to the audience what kind of a character Jasnah is: deliberate and calculating, with a fierce vengeful streak.

Why? Deliberate and calculating for sure, but vengeful? She could have turned only the air around their legs to molten lead or find many more horrrible ways to kill them. Nor did she go there first chance she had to clean out the vermin. No, she did it on the occasion she had a lesson to teach. She cared little about those killed in the mean time.

She shows just an incredible haughtiness even disdain for common people, not vengeance.

(Scadrial)

Spoiler

I am reminded of Harmony treating Wax.

4 hours ago, Goatbringer said:

The first time I read the scene I was also caught up in the umming and awwing over whether this was 'right', but on my third readthrough (this year), I found myself wondering what had been done to Jasnah in the past that made her take such deliberate action against men who would target women.

Most street criminals are men. Just a matter of statistics. This may simply be overinterpretation.

2 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

I think, Taravangian was trying to determine the extent or existence of her bond and powers.  Obviously, immoral the classic judge, jury and executioner.

And so were the Ghostbloods. Jasnah could not leave witnesses. The moment she entered that street these criminals were dead men walking. That raises the question whether they were observed anyway.

[Goatbringer]

45 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why? Deliberate and calculating for sure, but vengeful? She could have turned only the air around their legs to molten lead or find many more horrrible ways to kill them. Nor did she go there first chance she had to clean out the vermin. No, she did it on the occasion she had a lesson to teach. She cared little about those killed in the mean time.

She shows just an incredible haughtiness even disdain for common people, not vengeance.

Vengeful doesn't necessarily mean 'torture someone until they beg for death' - being vengeful can mean that Jasnah knows that these men needed taking care of and she did it. She just happened to coincide this with a lesson for Shallan. I feel like we also need more information from her perspective to know whether or not this is a 'dealing with the vermin first chance she gets' kind of thing - who's to say that Jasnah hadn't been doing these kind of nighttime forays cleaning up the streets like Bruce Wayne for weeks while she was in Kharbranth? We can only see Shallan's perspective on her time there, which is why I'm so desperate to see her interpretation of things since she is so unknowable most of the time. 

Also, I'm not saying that Jasnah isn't haughty, but I definitely don't look at this act as classism against the common people.