The Limit of Skybreaker Oaths

[Nellac]

So, given the new information I've been thinking a lot about the different orders and which I would be. When I took the test I got Skybreaker, but here's the problem. I think personal and/or religious morals are just as, if not more important than the actual rule of law. Don't get me won't, law is important and is what keeps society running, but if the law every contradicted my own personal/religious principles I would fight against it. Even now there after things that are legal that I disagree with. So, given all this, I was wondering how far the Skybreaker Oaths could be stretched. We see Szeth swearing to something outside of the law, so I wondered how far this could be stretched. I've come up with two possibilities that we haven't yet seen.

 

1. An ideology, such as libertarianism or Conservatism. Now, I think these are a possibility, but not a very strong one. Though these ideas can influence people's actions they seem to be a bit to fluid. Many people in this kind of ideology would argue over what to do. The ideology creates a framework, but not one strong enough to hold an external specs of morality for a Skybreaker.

 

2. A religion. Now, I want to preface this with a couple of things. I'm not here to argue for the truth or not of any religion, in just talking as something for a Skybreaker to follow. Also I know that some religions change over time or by whose in charge, but the same can be said for the law. Also I know that some religions have done terrible things, but again, so have some laws. Finally, I mostly know details about Christianity so if I say something that is inaccurate for a religion I'm sorry. Now, I think this one is much more likely. This leads to a couple of questions that would be very interesting. First, would they hold just the members of the religion accountable out would they try to force it in others? I think this would come down to the religion. If it was a religion that promoted it's spread at any cost there likely force everyone to hold to it. If it was a religion that have everyone the freedom to believe what they want I think they'd only hold the other members of the religion accountable. The second question is what if the religion believes in forgiveness? This would create a very interesting dilemma for the Skybreaker. On the one hand the person may have broken the roles in which case the Skybreaker would feel obligated to administer a punishment. On the other side, if there is the option for that person to repent they would feel bound to give them that choice. 

TLDR: Thoughts on a Skybreaker sweating to an ideology or religion

[Gderu]

I think you misunderstand the skybreakers. They don't have to swear to follow the law of the land they are in - that is just what Nale and the modern skybreakers are doing. What they need to do is swear to follow a set of laws. It can be the laws of the land they are in, or that they can write down their own set of laws to follow, or that it can be the pirate code. Its all good so long as it's external to them.

[Watchcry]

I think conservatism or libertarianism would be more of a Willshaper oath as libertarianism is very limited government that enables the people to be free as opposed to liberalism where the people are forced against their will to contribute money to the government. 

[SirNoSell]

16 minutes ago, Watchcry said:

I think conservatism or libertarianism would be more of a Willshaper oath as libertarianism is very limited government that enables the people to be free as opposed to liberalism where the people are forced against their will to contribute money to the government. 

It's funny you say that because when I read the KR Quiz descriptions for the Willshapers, I got some serious revolutionary vibes but obviously without the indiscriminate slaughter of the innocent and guilty. 

[Nellac]

5 hours ago, Gderu said:

I think you misunderstand the skybreakers. They don't have to swear to follow the law of the land they are in - that is just what Nale and the modern skybreakers are doing. What they need to do is swear to follow a set of laws. It can be the laws of the land they are in, or that they can write down their own set of laws to follow, or that it can be the pirate code. Its all good so long as it's external to them.

I understand them well enough, I'm just really bad at saying my thoughts. Basically I was wondering on people's thoughts on if these were a full enough and strong enough set of rules to stand as a Skybreaker code

[Watchcry]

I think so. Religion or to be, anyway. 

[Aminar]

Skybreakers are about finding a way to remove personal judgement from the discussion of right or wrong. Follow a man. Follow a set of laws. Follow an ideology. You could literally have a Skybreaker swear to follow WWJD(What Would Jesus Do). I'm not sure how it would pan out, but it's an external guide. 

[Guest Parallax]

On 6/21/2020 at 2:39 PM, Nellac said:

TLDR: Thoughts on a Skybreaker swea[r]ing to an ideology or religion

I agree this is a major problem which is the result of Brandon's confusion about law with justice. 

Different people have different conceptions of justice, to take your examples further we know some libertarians think all taxation is theft and morally bad. Based on that what would happen if such a person would become a Skybreaker? Suppose someone who is politically liberal goes to Iri where homosexuality is outlawed, will they enforce their laws that discriminate and prosecute gay people? Based on the books it seems Skybreakers are supposed to respect local laws but then what happens to "justice"?

Another issue is that justice is such a large concept that it has to be one of the 16 shards or something close to that (like a large fragment of a shard). You can't put it as one of the ten Knight Radiant orders. Law enforcement is a much more limited concept and it is a much better fit. For example it would explain why Skybreakers get into fights Windrunners (they want to do what is right not what is required by law so whenever they think the law is wrong there is a conflict) and Dustbringers (they are not big on order they like disorder and chaos!). 

[Chiberty]

1 minute ago, Parallax said:

Different people have different conceptions of justice, to take your examples further we know some libertarians think all taxation is theft and morally bad. Based on that what would happen if such a person would become a Skybreaker?

Either, they will be unable to progress to the third oath, or they will choose to swear themselves to some sort of libertarian code. 

5 minutes ago, Parallax said:

Suppose someone who is politically liberal goes to Iri where homosexuality is outlawed, will they enforce their laws that discriminate and prosecute gay people? Based on the books it seems Skybreakers are supposed to respect local laws but then what happens to "justice"?

Skybreakers don't have to follow the law of the land. They just have to follow the code that they chose. 

7 minutes ago, Parallax said:

I agree this is a major problem which is the result of Brandon's confusion about law with justice. 

Different people have different conceptions of justice

That isn't an issue. There is a reason the Skybreaker oaths are so personalized.

[Guest Parallax]

Just now, ChickenLiberty said:

Either, they will be unable to progress to the third oath, or they will choose to swear themselves to some sort of libertarian code. 

Skybreakers don't have to follow the law of the land. They just have to follow the code that they chose. 

That isn't an issue. There is a reason the Skybreaker oaths are so personalized.

1. So you have a libertarian one that thinks all taxation is theft, and another that think all national resources should be nationalized. Both hold these beliefs sincerely, the only way to resolve this would be to have a civil war within Skybreakers where one faction would eliminate the other. That is no way to run things. 

2. That is not supported by the books. For example Nale has gone through all the legal procedures of Azir to get an execution order for Lift and then gives up once she is pardoned. Both of which seem very odd things to do if they don't have to follow the local law. Finally Skybreakers wear the uniform of the local law enforcement wherever they travel. 

3. Different concepts of justice means conflict is inevitable see #1. 

[Karger]

26 minutes ago, Parallax said:

That is not supported by the books

Yes it is.  Nalen has sworn to uphold the laws of the lands he resides in.  Other Skybreakers swear to specific laws or legal systems.  Some like Szeth swear to specific people.

26 minutes ago, Parallax said:

Finally Skybreakers wear the uniform of the local law enforcement wherever they travel. 

That makes sense.  It is recognizable to locals.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Karger

[Chiberty]

Sorry, it took me a little while to find the quotes.

28 minutes ago, Parallax said:

1. So you have a libertarian one that thinks all taxation is theft, and another that think all national resources should be nationalized. Both hold these beliefs sincerely, the only way to resolve this would be to have a civil war within Skybreakers where one faction would eliminate the other. That is no way to run things. 

3. Different concepts of justice means conflict is inevitable see #1. 

The Skybreakers don't really care. After Szeth swears to follow Dalinar, Nale is still perfectly fine with training him further and doesn't hold it against him at all:

Quote

"What if we meet on the battlefield?"

"Then we will both fight with confidence, knowing that we obey the precepts of our oaths. Farewell, Szeth-son-Neturo. I will visit you again to oversee your training in our second art, the Surge of Division. You may access that now, but take care. It is dangerous."

 

28 minutes ago, Parallax said:

2. That is not supported by the books. For example Nale has gone through all the legal procedures of Azir to get an execution order for Lift and then gives up once she is pardoned. Both of which seem very odd things to do if they don't have to follow the local law. Finally Skybreakers wear the uniform of the local law enforcement wherever they travel. 

Some Skybreakers swear to follow the local law. Some don't, like Szeth, who follows Dalinar instead. The fact that Szeth follows Dalinar instead of the local laws is support from the books.

---

You seem to be misunderstanding the Skybreakers. They're not focused on justice, or even laws. That's mainly a Second Oath thing. Nale explains it here:

Quote

"The law is made by men, so it is not perfect either. It is not perfection we seek, for perfection is impossible. It is instead consistency.

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by ChickenLiberty

[18th Shard]

17 hours ago, Parallax said:

1. So you have a libertarian one that thinks all taxation is theft, and another that think all national resources should be nationalized. Both hold these beliefs sincerely, the only way to resolve this would be to have a civil war within Skybreakers where one faction would eliminate the other. That is no way to run things. 

2. That is not supported by the books. For example Nale has gone through all the legal procedures of Azir to get an execution order for Lift and then gives up once she is pardoned. Both of which seem very odd things to do if they don't have to follow the local law. Finally Skybreakers wear the uniform of the local law enforcement wherever they travel. 

3. Different concepts of justice means conflict is inevitable see #1. 

1. This one has been addressed above by @ChickenLiberty, but I think they are far more likely to appreciate the fact that the other group has a consistent law. The point of their code is to remove emotion from their decisions - and so their oath requires them to judge entirely based off that code, not on personal decisions or emotions.

2. Note that this is the Skybreakers under Nale - not inherently a Skybreaker ideal, but rather Nale's idea on how things must go.

3. Different concepts of justice arise in our world between different political/religious groups. Disagreement is inevitable; conflict is not. The Skybreakers simply have to determine how they interact with those whose laws or ideas of justice differ, and apply that system consistently.