Adversarial Orders

[Aminar]

With the new information about the orders I got to thinking about how odd it is that Windrunners(Honor Spren) and Edgedancers(Cultivation Spren) aren't opposite one another with the other orders rnning a spectrum from cultivating orders to honorable orders. And that got me thinking about whether or not Windrunners and Lightweavers semi-opposite relationship isn't reflected in the other orders. I think they are. 

Let's look at the pairings. 

Windrunners have Honor Spren. They focus on protecting others and leadership. Their motivations are external and about their own actions. But we can see the biggest difference here in Cryptics and Honor Spren. Lies and Honor. 

Now we rotate a step. Skybreakers and Elsecallers. This one is much more pronounced. Skybreakers are about erasure of the self. They make no decisions, they swear to an external code, while Elsecallers are about the perfection of the self. They seek to be the best version of themself. 

Another step and we have Dustbringers vs Willshapers. Dustbringers embody With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility. They're focused on absolute discipline and self sacrifice. Willshapers are focused on personal freedom and increasing the freedom of others. In a sense this is very similar to Elsecallers and Skybreakers. 

Next Up, Edgedancers and Stonewards. We don't know much about Stonewards. They're an odd order but they're described as very martial. Edgedancers are healers, they're their for the forgotten and underprivileged. They embody the difference between Kaladin's Kill to Protect and Lyrin's you cannot kill to protect. I think this is probably the weakest adversarial relationship. 

And the last dichotomy is likely the most important. Bondsmith's and Truthwatchers. Bondsmith's value unity. Truthwatchers value Truth. We can see this dichotomy everywhere. Governments have a terrible time with transparency. Leaders have to know things most people don't. But without oversight this can get skewed. Bondsmiths have to walk the boarder between Tyrant and Leader. We can see how Dalinar's attempts to unify have been dishonest and hidden things. We can see how he's been outed and how the Truth destroyed Unity. But how important that Truth was is also evident. And so I finally understand why Bondsmith's and Truthwatchers occupy that central space among the orders. They both are needed for good leadership. You need unity, but that unity has to come with oversight. 

[Quantus]

Personally I see a pattern of antagonism between the Windrunners and the Skybreakers, along the fault line of "Spirit of the Law" style Honor vs "Letter of the Law" style

[Toaster Retribution]

25 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Personally I see a pattern of antagonism between the Windrunners and the Skybreakers, along the fault line of "Spirit of the Law" style Honor vs "Letter of the Law" style

I dont think Skybreakers are supposed to be pure spirit of the law. Nale is, and he is an insane and corrupted Skybreaker. Szeths book will be really interesting...

[Elegy]

The relationships between the Knights Radiant Orders have somewhat become one of my "Cosmere obsessions". These are some very interesting observations. However, I think that in order to understand how the Orders relate to each other physically on the chart, it's important to ask why the Orders are positioned the way they are. E.g. why are the Skybreakers between the Windrunners and the Dustbringers. And that's actually because they share the Surges. For all we know, there might not be another reason for Skybreakers being between Windrunners and Dustbringers and opposite to Lightweavers other than just them sharing Gravitation with the first and Division with the second, and are the farthest from the third in the Surge-based pattern.

So, from that perspective, it's not quite clear whether it's worthwhile to think about the physical relationships of the Orders on the chart in any other way than that - these share Surges, these don't, and so it goes in a circle. There could be a deeper scheme to this pattern, since the Surges and the Orders' themes might be inseperably connected in a thematical way (so which Order has which Surges is so profoundly dependent on what they represent that you would automatically create a thematical pattern by creating a Surge-based pattern), but for now, I personally am kinda reluctant about that and therefore prefer to think of the chart as just that - the Orders sorted after their abilities, not the themes they represent. Sorting them after themes, ideals and possibly even stuff like Spiritual/Cognitive or Honor/Cultivation might have completely different results.

For example, Skybreakers and Dustbringers seem to be opposites to me in some ways. Every sequence of oaths represents a specific development, a character arc that is loosely demanded from every member. The Skybreakers start off following one specific code of law, but with every oath, they become more about representing justice yourself instead, with the last oath being themed towards becoming the law - they learn to be confident in their decisions even without the law. The Dustbringers, on the other hand, are hot-headed, and from what we know (which admittedly isn't much), their Knights Radiant Order arc seems to be directed towards becoming more controlled and obedient. So the Skybreakers are overly obedient and must become more confident on their own. The Dustbringers, on the other hand, are over-confident and have to become more obedient.

So, what I'm trying to say is, the Orders are probably all related in a very intricate system, but I'm not completely sold on that system being what the chart depicts. There are probably a lot of other ways the Orders could be sorted instead.

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I dont think Skybreakers are supposed to be pure spirit of the law. Nale is, and he is an insane and corrupted Skybreaker. Szeths book will be really interesting...

No, I was saying that the Skybreakers are the Letter of the Law side, very rigidly inflexible and absolutist about Law and Choice, etc, whereas the Windrunners are more on the relativist side of things, where their honor is far more internal, personal, and something that may change based on the particulars of a situation

[Aminar]

59 minutes ago, Elegy said:

The relationships between the Knights Radiant Orders have somewhat become one of my "Cosmere obsessions". These are some very interesting observations. However, I think that in order to understand how the Orders relate to each other physically on the chart, it's important to ask why the Orders are positioned the way they are. E.g. why are the Skybreakers between the Windrunners and the Dustbringers. And that's actually because they share the Surges. For all we know, there might not be another reason for Skybreakers being between Windrunners and Dustbringers and opposite to Lightweavers other than just them sharing Gravitation with the first and Division with the second, and are the farthest from the third in the Surge-based pattern.

So, from that perspective, it's not quite clear whether it's worthwhile to think about the physical relationships of the Orders on the chart in any other way than that - these share Surges, these don't, and so it goes in a circle. There could be a deeper scheme to this pattern, since the Surges and the Orders' themes might be inseperably connected in a thematical way (so which Order has which Surges is so profoundly dependent on what they represent that you would automatically create a thematical pattern by creating a Surge-based pattern), but for now, I personally am kinda reluctant about that and therefore prefer to think of the chart as just that - the Orders sorted after their abilities, not the themes they represent. Sorting them after themes, ideals and possibly even stuff like Spiritual/Cognitive or Honor/Cultivation might have completely different results.

For example, Skybreakers and Dustbringers seem to be opposites to me in some ways. Every sequence of oaths represents a specific development, a character arc that is loosely demanded from every member. The Skybreakers start off following one specific code of law, but with every oath, they become more about representing justice yourself instead, with the last oath being themed towards becoming the law - they learn to be confident in their decisions even without the law. The Dustbringers, on the other hand, are hot-headed, and from what we know (which admittedly isn't much), their Knights Radiant Order arc seems to be directed towards becoming more controlled and obedient. So the Skybreakers are overly obedient and must become more confident on their own. The Dustbringers, on the other hand, are over-confident and have to become more obedient.

So, what I'm trying to say is, the Orders are probably all related in a very intricate system, but I'm not completely sold on that system being what the chart depicts. There are probably a lot of other ways the Orders could be sorted instead.

I think the orders started from their ideals and Spren types. The surges are more or less random in order. What does Gravity have to do with honor or law? Why aren't Cohesion and Division next to eachother? What does Growth have to do with The Truth? 

[Elegy]

36 minutes ago, Aminar said:

I think the orders started from their ideals and Spren types. The surges are more or less random in order. What does Gravity have to do with honor or law? Why aren't Cohesion and Division next to eachother? What does Growth have to do with The Truth? 

Yes, I agree, and that's basically what I was getting at: The table is sorted by which Order has access to which Surges, not by their themes. And if the Surges and the themes are not directly connected, there's nothing that indicates that the positions of the Orders are thematically relevant. The positions are only relevant for the Surges they have access to, is what I was trying to say.

[Toaster Retribution]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

No, I was saying that the Skybreakers are the Letter of the Law side, very rigidly inflexible and absolutist about Law and Choice, etc, whereas the Windrunners are more on the relativist side of things, where their honor is far more internal, personal, and something that may change based on the particulars of a situation

Right, gotcha, sorry. Then we agree. The Skybreakers are defenitely not as... understanding as the Windrunners.

[Yolenlightweaver]

4 hours ago, Aminar said:

With the new information about the orders I got to thinking about how odd it is that Windrunners(Honor Spren) and Edgedancers(Cultivation Spren) aren't opposite one another with the other orders rnning a spectrum from cultivating orders to honorable orders. And that got me thinking about whether or not Windrunners and Lightweavers semi-opposite relationship isn't reflected in the other orders. I think they are. 

Let's look at the pairings. 

Windrunners have Honor Spren. They focus on protecting others and leadership. Their motivations are external and about their own actions. But we can see the biggest difference here in Cryptics and Honor Spren. Lies and Honor. 

Now we rotate a step. Skybreakers and Elsecallers. This one is much more pronounced. Skybreakers are about erasure of the self. They make no decisions, they swear to an external code, while Elsecallers are about the perfection of the self. They seek to be the best version of themself. 

Another step and we have Dustbringers vs Willshapers. Dustbringers embody With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility. They're focused on absolute discipline and self sacrifice. Willshapers are focused on personal freedom and increasing the freedom of others. In a sense this is very similar to Elsecallers and Skybreakers. 

Next Up, Edgedancers and Stonewards. We don't know much about Stonewards. They're an odd order but they're described as very martial. Edgedancers are healers, they're their for the forgotten and underprivileged. They embody the difference between Kaladin's Kill to Protect and Lyrin's you cannot kill to protect. I think this is probably the weakest adversarial relationship. 

And the last dichotomy is likely the most important. Bondsmith's and Truthwatchers. Bondsmith's value unity. Truthwatchers value Truth. We can see this dichotomy everywhere. Governments have a terrible time with transparency. Leaders have to know things most people don't. But without oversight this can get skewed. Bondsmiths have to walk the boarder between Tyrant and Leader. We can see how Dalinar's attempts to unify have been dishonest and hidden things. We can see how he's been outed and how the Truth destroyed Unity. But how important that Truth was is also evident. And so I finally understand why Bondsmith's and Truthwatchers occupy that central space among the orders. They both are needed for good leadership. You need unity, but that unity has to come with oversight. 

I think this is really cool! Another one that might work against Truthwatcher I feel like would be Lightweaver, providing the dichotomy between truth and lies. I do think the orders have opposites, but I agree with the above that it might not necessarily be based on locations due to physical surges.

[Aminar]

57 minutes ago, Elegy said:

Yes, I agree, and that's basically what I was getting at: The table is sorted by which Order has access to which Surges, not by their themes. And if the Surges and the themes are not directly connected, there's nothing that indicates that the positions of the Orders are thematically relevant. The positions are only relevant for the Surges they have access to, is what I was trying to say.

I don't think its ordered by surges. I think the surges were basically dropped on top of the table. Like, they came second, largely arbitrarily. Because there is an order to the ideals. You can see that the orders related to the self are clustered(lightweaver, Elsecaller, Willshaper), as are the scholarly orders(Lightweaver, elsecaller, truthwatcher) and martial orders(Stoneward-Dustbringer, minus Bondsmith's who are generally leaders in charge of those orders while the other orders seem to have been more independent and mobile in their purposes, travelling Scholars, Regional Edgedancers, Willshapers building stuff, etc.) 

[Elegy]

24 minutes ago, Aminar said:

I don't think its ordered by surges. I think the surges were basically dropped on top of the table. Like, they came second, largely arbitrarily. Because there is an order to the ideals. You can see that the orders related to the self are clustered(lightweaver, Elsecaller, Willshaper), as are the scholarly orders(Lightweaver, elsecaller, truthwatcher) and martial orders(Stoneward-Dustbringer, minus Bondsmith's who are generally leaders in charge of those orders while the other orders seem to have been more independent and mobile in their purposes, travelling Scholars, Regional Edgedancers, Willshapers building stuff, etc.) 

Ahh, now I understand, I didn't consider that, that's interesting. I think the Honorblades make that kind of unlikely, since they predate the Orders and already follow the same combinations of powers and were held by the according Heralds. Of course, the table positions could predate Honorblades and originally referred to the Heralds, but I don't think we have good hints for that...

The Orders being somewhat sorted after their roles in their society might also be connected to the Surges, since some of those are better for fighting, so the Orders who have use for those are clustered at one place and the ones who don't at another. Most of the Surges make practical sense for the Orders, after all.

But yeah, interesting ... Food for thought for sure!

[Aminar]

5 hours ago, Elegy said:

Ahh, now I understand, I didn't consider that, that's interesting. I think the Honorblades make that kind of unlikely, since they predate the Orders and already follow the same combinations of powers and were held by the according Heralds. Of course, the table positions could predate Honorblades and originally referred to the Heralds, but I don't think we have good hints for that...

The Orders being somewhat sorted after their roles in their society might also be connected to the Surges, since some of those are better for fighting, so the Orders who have use for those are clustered at one place and the ones who don't at another. Most of the Surges make practical sense for the Orders, after all.

But yeah, interesting ... Food for thought for sure!

I'm more talking in the meta-sense. If I were Brandon I'd be designing the system in a way where the orders follow a pattern. Given the surges don't, I'd think he'd start with the Oaths and meanings. And it's a lot easier to make a consistent feeling list like that with opposites than it is not. From there he ordered the powers in a way that created interesting capability dynamics.

[thejopen27]

The interesting thing though, is that while Windrunners and Lightweavers seem opposite, Kaladin gets along really well with all the Lightweavers he knows (Wit, Shallan, Tien, even Elhokar once he gets to know him). Shallan gets along well with Kaladin and all the windrunner squires. While I imagine him really clashing with the cold, heartless logic of Jasnah the Elsecaller and the Skybreakers. I wonder if there are some orders where the spren don't get along but the people do and some where the spren get along but the people don't.

As far as where the surges fit with the orders... Kaladin is a leader, he draws people towards himself (gravity) and binds them together (adhesion). Shallan transforms people by showing them better versions of themselves (illumination). Lift slides into cracks in society and heals people. Dalinar pulls people together and binds them together. The Skybreakers pull in people and divide them. The surges do seem to fit with their specific orders and their personalities.

Edited June 18, 2020 by thejopen27

[Aminar]

44 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

The interesting thing though, is that while Windrunners and Lightweavers seem opposite, Kaladin gets along really well with all the Lightweavers he knows (Wit, Shallan, Tien, even Elhokar once he gets to know him). Shallan gets along well with Kaladin and all the windrunner squires. While I imagine him really clashing with the cold, heartless logic of Jasnah the Elsecaller and the Skybreakers. I wonder if there are some orders where the spren don't get along but the people do and some where the spren get along but the people don't.

As far as where the surges fit with the orders... Kaladin is a leader, he draws people towards himself (gravity) and binds them together (adhesion). Shallan transforms people by showing them better versions of themselves (illumination). Lift slides into cracks in society and heals people. Dalinar pulls people together and binds them together. The Skybreakers pull in people and divide them. The surges do seem to fit with their specific orders and their personalities.

I think you could twist those in every direction to make them fit. Shallan may shine a light on people, but she also does shadowy spy stuff. If you gave Windrunners her Powers you could talk about how Giving people the resources they need to succeed is the soul of good leadership. How he transformed Bridge 4. How he showed them the light in their dark situation. 

[thejopen27]

31 minutes ago, Aminar said:

I think you could twist those in every direction to make them fit. Shallan may shine a light on people, but she also does shadowy spy stuff. If you gave Windrunners her Powers you could talk about how Giving people the resources they need to succeed is the soul of good leadership. How he transformed Bridge 4. How he showed them the light in their dark situation. 

I just can't imagine Brandon not being very thoughtful about where he placed powers and who got what powers

[Honorless]

There would be thematic relationships between the Orders, narrative reasons alone guarantees that. These relationships would be backed up by nature of the Orders, each an organisation of a certain type of people. Disagreements are inevitable, especially here with each of Orders' approach to life.

It's not that the arrangement of the Orders seeks to represent that, it's just the way the system is designed I think. And the chart does show some of the not-necessarily-Investiture-system-related connections between the Orders:

Quote

William Anderson

Why are do the Windrunners, Elsecallers, Stonewards, and Dustbringers have an extra connection on the Surgebinding diagram? Why do the Edgedancer, Skybreaker, Lightweaver, Willshaper's have a broken connection on the diagram? What are the dragon type things in the back of the diagram?

Brandon Sanderson

The dragon type things are a certain animal you've seen several places in the story so far.

These connections will be explained eventually, but remember it's not the orders being connected, but instead their elemental representations. This diagram is very metaphysical, and some of the elements of it are cultural.

Goodreads: Ask the Author Q&A (Aug. 13, 2014)

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by R J

[Hen]

I can also Truthwatchers and Lightweavers going at it. Their orders are very similar in terms of seeking truth, but I can see how they might step on each other’s toes a little bit. Especially someone like Shallan who has such a hard time with the truth, might simply be jealous of the Truthwatchers who have found it. (Like Kaladin, Who often is jealous of shallan ability to smile)