Gavilar's Gameplan

[ConfusedCow]

What was Gavilar doing with the Parshendi treaty?  Why does he have at least two little black spheres filled with voidlight.  Why does he give one to Eshonai and one to Szeth?  Where are they now?  

There are lots of hints that the sphere contains Ba-ado-mishram, and I agree with this theory but how can one fused be trapped in two spheres?  She was captured in one perfect gemstone and then split.  Somebody tried to make a conjoined fabrial out of an unmade.  Someone was trying to use Ba-ado-mishram's powers, to connect with the parsh, to grant forms of power, to grant voidlight, to lead them.  Or to put it simply to create an army of loyal voidbringers.  Gavilar's gift was a Trojan horse, his treaty and his words to Eshonai lies.  Gavilar meant to seduce the listeners with power, transform them into an army and then enslave them to his will.  Who on Roshar could oppose such a force? The radiants at his back, the stormfather on his shoulder, the voidbringer armies at his left hand and Dalinar at at his right.   He could make the conquests of the Sunmaker, his idol, look like a footnote.  He could bring Vorinism to every corner of the continent.  He could unite Roshar. 

        The sphere Gavilar kept on him has the power to connect to and enslave singers in regal form.  Szeth drops it in Jah Keved.  Lin davar finds it where it corrupts him, turning him power hungry and violent.   He attempts to control its horrific influence by wrapping it in aluminum and protects it by hiding it on his 'precious' daughter.  Then all the nosy treasure seekers come looking, ghost bloods, hoid, daybreakers, etc...  The sphere Venli has can summon voidspren and grant voidlight.  We see her scholars producing stormspren somehow on the shattered plains.  Odium must know she has it though, perhaps it's been taken by the fused.  

[Toaster Retribution]

I like the idea that Gavilar could unite Roshar by harnessing the powers of the KR and the Unmade. That said, I don’t believe BAM is in those spheres. I think she is locked in a gemstone under Kholinar, which is why Odium is organising an excavation in there. The Voidbringers aren’t just digging for the fun of it. 

[Gderu]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I like the idea that Gavilar could unite Roshar by harnessing the powers of the KR and the Unmade. That said, I don’t believe BAM is in those spheres. I think she is locked in a gemstone under Kholinar, which is why Odium is organising an excavation in there. The Voidbringers aren’t just digging for the fun of it. 

I always assumed they were digging in order to find the spren that Elhokar had almost bonded.

[Karger]

5 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

There are lots of hints that the sphere contains Ba-ado-mishram, and I agree with this theory but how can one fused be trapped in two spheres? 

There were more then two.

5 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

Lin davar finds it where it corrupts him, turning him power hungry and violent

Pretty sure that that is a different unmade.  It effects everyone not just him and Rosharans don't know about aluminum.

[+Quazzi]

I think it is important that Ulim a spren of Odium lead the listeners to Szeth which I take to mean Odium wanted Gavilar eliminated even though Gavilar is trying to bring back the listeners gods which is what Odium wants. So whatever Gavilar’s gameplan was I have to think it would have been bad for Odium otherwise why set up his death?  

Edited June 15, 2020 by Quazzi

[Toaster Retribution]

2 hours ago, Gderu said:

I always assumed they were digging in order to find the spren that Elhokar had almost bonded.

Dont know how digging would help with that.

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Gderu said:

I always assumed they were digging in order to find the spren that Elhokar had almost bonded.

4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I like the idea that Gavilar could unite Roshar by harnessing the powers of the KR and the Unmade. That said, I don’t believe BAM is in those spheres. I think she is locked in a gemstone under Kholinar, which is why Odium is organising an excavation in there. The Voidbringers aren’t just digging for the fun of it. 

You are correct.  There is a WoB on it...

Quote

R'Shara

The Fused were looking for something at the palace at Kholinar at the end. Were they looking for Hoid's Cryptic?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they were. Good question! Did people think they were looking for the black gemstone? That would be the other big guess. But they were looking for the Cryptic.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Karger

[ConfusedCow]

@karger I've seen other people suggest there were more than 2, but where are you getting that from?  Also I love your oaths series and your theory of radiant oaths.  One day you and I should get some drinks.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, ConfusedCow said:

@karger I've seen other people suggest there were more than 2, but where are you getting that from? 

The number is not canonized but

Quote

Jofwu

Gavilar's black sphere. What was inside of it and how many does he have?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, it is what you think it is. And he had-- yeah... He had access to several. Did we canonize this Karen?

Karen Ahlstrom

*shakes head*

Brandon Sanderson

No, we haven't canonized it. I'm going to say RAFO on the number, but it is what you think it is and what the third book implies that it is.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

Indicates that he had more then just two(I have never known several to mean two and Navani says the same in her prologue when she sees them so Brandon is not being sneaky here). 

I am afraid that while looking I also found this...

Quote

Questioner

So, what happened to Shallan's family? As in--her brothers--the things that happened to Shallan's family, is that related to the black sphere from Gavilar that Szeth hid in Jah Keved?

Brandon Sanderson

It's vaguely related but not specifically.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

 

1 hour ago, ConfusedCow said:

Also I love your oaths series and your theory of radiant oaths.  One day you and I should get some drinks.

Thanks.  I don't really drink but the sentiment is appreciated.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Karger

[Elsecaller_17.5]

It should be noted that one of the black spheres (to the best of our knowledge) is still in Kohlinar. Szeth hid it there immediately after receiving it.

[ConfusedCow]

Alright those wobs arent super helpful. Though there's some wiggle room.  Maybe the sphere didn't corrupt her brothers directly, but was still there.  Still I think that the black spheres are part of some fabrial, designed to use the powers of Ba ado Mishram to enslave the singer's.  I've long thought that enslaving the singers was the ultimate goal of the Ghost Bloods. How else to properly use the advent of the desolation?

[RShara]

3 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

It should be noted that one of the black spheres (to the best of our knowledge) is still in Kohlinar. Szeth hid it there immediately after receiving it.

Szeth actually hid it in Jah Keved.

Quote

That tale always discomforted Szeth, as it reminded him of the strange black sphere Gavilar had given him. He’d hidden that carefully in Jah Keved. He didn’t know what it was, but he didn’t want to risk a master taking it from him.

 

5 hours ago, Karger said:

You are correct.  There is a WoB on it...

 

Ninja'd on my own WoB!

[Karger]

2 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

Alright those wobs arent super helpful. Though there's some wiggle room.  Maybe the sphere didn't corrupt her brothers directly, but was still there.  Still I think that the black spheres are part of some fabrial, designed to use the powers of Ba ado Mishram to enslave the singer's. 

You can read Navani's prologue.  It sheds some light on what they are.  I do think we will see some void fabrails in the future but as Navani noted those require metal parts so I don't think the spheres could be hers.

Quote

I've long thought that enslaving the singers was the ultimate goal of the Ghost Bloods. How else to properly use the advent of the desolation?

Well the advent did prompt the radiant spren and surgebinding to return.  So my theory here makes some sense.

I think in general the GB want the conflict to go on for as long as possible selling information and services to both sides.  They have a presence in the tower meaning they can sell intel to Odium(especially if they can get Shallan to help them inadvertently or not), they have research that they can sell to the radiant coalition(they know at least a bit about Taravangian and quite a bit about the unmade).  They can also sell information to factions inside the tower itself.  Azir and Tashiki intelligence officers and various political players in the Vorin kingdoms will probably deal with them for information on the other dealers.  As long as the conflict continues without getting quite apocalyptic enough to completely destroy one or both sides the GB stand to gain.

[SteelShaper]

Pretty sure I read somewhere that BS admitted that part of Balat's problem was caused by the influence of an Unmade, but I doubt it would be the result of the voidsphere Szeth got from Gavilar. I think it's the ninth Unmade, the one that destroyed Aimia.

[Frustration]

On 6/15/2020 at 7:26 AM, Quazzi said:

I think it is important that Ulim a spren of Odium lead the listeners to Szeth which I take to mean Odium wanted Gavilar eliminated even though Gavilar is trying to bring back the listeners gods which is what Odium wants. So whatever Gavilar’s gameplan was I have to think it would have been bad for Odium otherwise why set up his death?  

Was that Ulim?

[+Quazzi]

@FrustrationActually I might have been mistaken about it being Ulim. The listener Klade claimed he was lead to Szeth by a voice who speaks to the rhythms so it could have been Ulim but no confirmation. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Quazzi

[agrabes]

On 6/15/2020 at 1:49 AM, ConfusedCow said:

What was Gavilar doing with the Parshendi treaty?  Why does he have at least two little black spheres filled with voidlight.  Why does he give one to Eshonai and one to Szeth?  Where are they now?  

There are lots of hints that the sphere contains Ba-ado-mishram, and I agree with this theory but how can one fused be trapped in two spheres?  She was captured in one perfect gemstone and then split.  Somebody tried to make a conjoined fabrial out of an unmade.  Someone was trying to use Ba-ado-mishram's powers, to connect with the parsh, to grant forms of power, to grant voidlight, to lead them.  Or to put it simply to create an army of loyal voidbringers.  Gavilar's gift was a Trojan horse, his treaty and his words to Eshonai lies.  Gavilar meant to seduce the listeners with power, transform them into an army and then enslave them to his will.  Who on Roshar could oppose such a force? The radiants at his back, the stormfather on his shoulder, the voidbringer armies at his left hand and Dalinar at at his right.   He could make the conquests of the Sunmaker, his idol, look like a footnote.  He could bring Vorinism to every corner of the continent.  He could unite Roshar. 

        The sphere Gavilar kept on him has the power to connect to and enslave singers in regal form.  Szeth drops it in Jah Keved.  Lin davar finds it where it corrupts him, turning him power hungry and violent.   He attempts to control its horrific influence by wrapping it in aluminum and protects it by hiding it on his 'precious' daughter.  Then all the nosy treasure seekers come looking, ghost bloods, hoid, daybreakers, etc...  The sphere Venli has can summon voidspren and grant voidlight.  We see her scholars producing stormspren somehow on the shattered plains.  Odium must know she has it though, perhaps it's been taken by the fused.  

Wasn't Gavilar known to be a member of the Sons of Honor?  If so, that implies his goal was to cause the Parsh to become the Voidbringers in order to kick off a desolation so that the Heralds would return.  I don't think he was interested in enslaving the Parshendi.  

[Karger]

3 hours ago, agrabes said:

Wasn't Gavilar known to be a member of the Sons of Honor? 

He was sort of their leader but he was also (as of SA4 prologue) clearly not telling them everything he knew. 

[agrabes]

15 hours ago, Karger said:

He was sort of their leader but he was also (as of SA4 prologue) clearly not telling them everything he knew. 

True, but in the SA4 prologue (SA4 prologue spoilers)

Spoiler

Amaram was with him in the meeting with the Heralds.

So either only Amaram and Gavilar knew the secrets , or neither of them knew what was really going on in that prologue scene.  Or, the prologue isn't in final draft and may be edited to change who is supposed to know what.  It doesn't make sense for Amaram to have been in on it if Gavilar knew what was really happening

Spoiler

Since Amaram is shown to have been a true believer in the stated goal of the Sons of Honor - learning that the Heralds had been on Roshar for thousands of years and that they weren't helping humanity was what turned him to Odium.  So he couldn't have known he was meeting with Heralds prior to Gavilar's death.

So, I guess you may be right that the rank and file of the Sons of Honor don't know everything about the true goals of the order based on the small snippet we see in the SA4 prologue.  But I'm not sure it would make sense for the goals to be as theorized by the OP.

[Karger]

2 hours ago, agrabes said:

True, but in the SA4 prologue (SA4 prologue spoilers)

No he was not.  He mentioned he would be talking to him later.

[+Quazzi]

Gavilar was playing his own game and his membership with the Sons of Honor was a means to a end. Amaram is until WOR completely unaware of the heralds presence on Roshar but from the ROW prologue reading it seems Gavilar is well aware of who Nale and most likely Kalak is. So either Amaram was out of the loop or Gavilar wasn’t too loyal to the SOH. I think the visions he received from the Stormfather made him start asking questions and that is how he found the SOH. 

[agrabes]

5 hours ago, Karger said:

No he was not.  He mentioned he would be talking to him later.

Well, I think it's a little unclear.  Early in the prologue it says this:

Spoiler

"...about the misdrawn maps, yes," Navani said, sighing. "And my husband?"

"Vanished, Brightness," the steward said. "He was seen with Brightlord Amaram and some of those... uncommon figures." That was the term that palace staff used for Gavilar's new friends, the ones who seemed to arrive without warning or announcement, and rarely gave their names.

Which directly says that Amaram was included.  However, later it says this:

Spoiler

 

The King was speaking with two men that Navani vaguely recognized. 'Ambassadors from the West' were what they'd been called, but no kingdom had been given for their home. They were simply among Gavilar's uncommon visitors.

Which, while the wording isn't 100% precise, implies Amaram was not there at least at that moment.  So there are two contradicting statements.

It might be that as an early draft, it will later be revised to make it clear that Amaram was not there and was never part of that portion of Gavilar's plan.  But as written/transcribed, it does not say that Gavilar's discussion with Amaram was separate.

[Cammac]

The timelines are strange at the assassination. So in the new prologue, Navani finds the meeting just after the guests have arrived, Eshonai finds him in the same room with different people after that. Jasnah finds Gavilar and Amaram in the hallway speaking. Then after sees Nale and Kalak in a different hallway just as the screaming starts but presumably they left after Navani saw them.

The assassination probably deserves it's own theory thread but at the minute it looks like there were at least 5 heralds in Kohlinar that night. Gavilar playing 2, possibly more groups. It wouldn't surprise me if he had links to the ghost bloods and the diagram aswell.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Cammac
Spelling

[Karger]

46 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Well, I think it's a little unclear.  Early in the prologue it says this:

We at no point see Amaram actually interact with either of them and his actions in WoR indicate pretty strongly that he never knew who Gavilar was associating with.  Gavilar himself clearly knew what was going on to an extent at least.

[agrabes]

15 hours ago, Karger said:

We at no point see Amaram actually interact with either of them and his actions in WoR indicate pretty strongly that he never knew who Gavilar was associating with.  Gavilar himself clearly knew what was going on to an extent at least.

You're right, we don't see him interact with them.  But, we are told that they all meet.  I personally think what we've been shown so far implies that Gavilar was trying to play a game that he knew very little about.  For example, he assumes that Eshonai would want to bring back the Fused.  He had a few pieces of the puzzle and drew the wrong conclusions.

It may be that I'm totally wrong, but that's the feeling I get.  I think he was just a conqueror who wanted to first restore a united Alethkar, then achieve the goals of the Sons of Honor to restore a Theocracy with himself as the god-emperor and conquer as much of the world as he could behind that united banner of all Vorin nations.  If he could defeat the forces of evil during a desolation, even better for his legitimacy.  I think he felt tying in the Vorin religion to his rule and as the source of his legitimacy would secure his dynasty long term, unlike other conquerors whose empires generally died with them.