Dual Orders; Mixed Spren?

[Halyo_Alex]

I noticed a fair few people talking in the official radiant order quiz threads have been mixing their top two results into a "new" order, myself included.

We know from WoBs that it's technically possible for a person to bond two Radiant spren, if highly unlikely to happen in practice.

But can things be pushed a step further? Can two spren be mixed into a single entity?

Well... Yes. They can be. Here's the WoB for it!

Quote

Questioner

Can spren be put back together, through Bondsmiths rejoined, as Shards can be joined and combined?

Brandon Sanderson

That, um… so what do you mean by spren put back together?

Questioner

Could a Bondsmith combine spren in the way that Shards can be combined?

Brandon Sanderson

Ok, so the answer is they can be combined. Whether the Bondsmith is a method or not I won't say, but spren can be combined.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

So, Lightshapers, Winddancers, Windshapers, Elsebreakers, you guys COULD technically have a single spren for your merged orders.

As to what this would do to the consciousness of the two spren, and what the actual method for merging them would be, I have no idea. Let's theorize that together!

[Cammac]

3 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

So, Lightshapers, Winddancers, Windshapers, Elsebreakers, you guys COULD technically have a single spren for your merged orders.

As to what this would do to the consciousness of the two spren, and what the actual method for merging them would be, I have no idea. Let's theorize that together!

If the theory of lesser spren creating shardplate is correct, could this be the method for it?  A merging of say honorspren and windspren. This would take away most of the issues we've heard about locality. 

[Honorless]

I mean, Investiture can be combined, why couldn't living Investiture?

[GoWibble]

3 hours ago, R J said:

I mean, Investiture can be combined, why couldn't living Investiture?

So the main thing that I see with this is that, like metalminds (which are different, I know), when you mix them together, you might not get something useable or what you wanted:

Quote

ntdfbladez (paraphrased)

If a metalmind is melted down and changes shape, does it still retain its power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, only by mixing it with other metals would the power be completely lost. Also if any pieces of the metalmind are lost, then some of the power will be lost (as it would be in the missing pieces).

Rithmatist Houston signing (May 20, 2013)

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by GoWibble

[Honorless]

2 hours ago, GoWibble said:

So the main thing that I see with this is that, like metalminds (which are different, I know), when you mix them together, you might not get something useable or what you wanted:

Quote

ntdfbladez (paraphrased)

If a metalmind is melted down and changes shape, does it still retain its power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, only by mixing it with other metals would the power be completely lost. Also if any pieces of the metalmind are lost, then some of the power will be lost (as it would be in the missing pieces).

Rithmatist Houston signing (May 20, 2013)

 

Yeah but with Feruchemy, it makes sense. It's the metal. And you're corrupting the data, so to speak.

With spren, we already know that they can be Corrupted, that new ones are made somehow, that some of the lesser spren are cousins of the high spren. It just seemed like the instinctive next logical leap to me, if that makes sense.

[Cammac]

2 hours ago, GoWibble said:

So the main thing that I see with this is that, like metalminds (which are different, I know), when you mix them together, you might not get something useable or what you wanted:

 

I dont think that applies in this case, mixing metals makes an alloy so a completely different metal. If you took stored copper and tin metal minds and melted them together (in the correct quantities) you would get a bronze one. You would lose anything stored in the separate metals but it would be able to then be filled by a sentry.

I think the merging of spren is a possibility but I would say not for two intelligent spen. As stated above, honor spren and wind spren I can see possible and say cultivation spren and life spren or a cryptic and creation spren.

[Halyo_Alex]

8 hours ago, Cammac said:

I think the merging of spren is a possibility but I would say not for two intelligent spren.

Why not, though? Mistspren are sentient (or sapient, I can't remember which word is more accurate) but they're not Radiant spren. Would they be exempt from fusion?

Also I just recently realized a possible hacky avenue for spren merging. [Mistborn Bands of Mourning Spoilers]

Spoiler

Nicrosil + Aluminum Medallions. If Spren are bits of sapient Investiture, could you go to Shadesmar and give one an F-Nicrosil + F-Aluminum Medallion and have the Spren store themselves, Identity-blanked, inside Nicrosil, and then have another Spren take the medallion and tap the first Spren back out into themselves?

 

[Cammac]

52 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Why not, though? Mistspren are sentient (or sapient, I can't remember which word is more accurate) but they're not Radiant spren. Would they be exempt from fusion?

I think it would be impossible to fuse true spren together due to the level of Intelligence and individual personality. The lesser spren are pretty much just thoughts manifesting in the physical realm. Like a physical representation of the force or emotion they convey.

I had the worlds worst analogy that I nearly posted, it was terrible and about computers 

[Halyo_Alex]

6 minutes ago, Cammac said:

I think it would be impossible to fuse true spren together due to the level of Intelligence and individual personality. The lesser spren are pretty much just thoughts manifesting in the physical realm. Like a physical representation of the force or emotion they convey.

I had the worlds worst analogy that I nearly posted, it was terrible and about computers 

Hmm... I'm not convinced, it still just feels kind of arbitrary. Besides, if you were fusing spren, why would you fuse lesser spren? Perhaps Shardplate, but then, what about the lesser spren that don't seem attracted to members of a particular Order?

[Nellac]

I'm not sure whether or not you can mix sapient Spren, but I think there's something else to consider. When you mix the Spren will the Spren actually just be half and half of the mixed Spren? I don't think so. The best analogy I can use for this comes from chemistry. Sodium and chlorine are both chemicals that are toxic to humans, but when you combine them they become something completely different that is actually necessary for human life. In the same idea you could mix two sapient Spren and end up with a stupid one. Or one that is completely insane or some other crazy defect instead of this perfect combination of the starting parts.

[Halyo_Alex]

3 minutes ago, Nellac said:

I'm not sure whether or not you can mix sapient Spren, but I think there's something else to consider. When you mix the Spren will the Spren actually just be half and half of the mixed Spren? I don't think so. The best analogy I can use for this comes from chemistry. Sodium and chlorine are both chemicals that are toxic to humans, but when you combine them they become something completely different that is actually necessary for human life. In the same idea you could mix two sapient Spren and end up with a stupid one. Or one that is completely insane or some other crazy defect instead of this perfect combination of the starting parts.

That's... Actually a good point. Hmm. There would certainly be some need for experimentation to find the good combinations.

I feel like the Oathgate spren are fusions, each. Perhaps based on an Inkspren and a Lightspren, given that both are capable of Transportation and look the part, but small.

[Nellac]

5 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

That's... Actually a good point. Hmm. There would certainly be some need for experimentation to find the good combinations.

Uh..... Do you realize how heartless that sounds? These are fully sentient beings smart enough to understand and discuss morality and philosophy with people. Using magic power to just merge them together is the equivalent of using genetic engineering on people

[NightbloodforPM]

I've wondered for a long time if Adolin will awaken his blade with a different surge than its original combination, or just if this is possible with any dead blade.

[Dunkum]

On 6/14/2020 at 8:59 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

That's... Actually a good point. Hmm. There would certainly be some need for experimentation to find the good combinations.

well and the other piece is even if the combined spren is sapient and capable of forming a Nahel bond and granting surges there is no guarantee that the resultant spren would give access to more than 2 surges, it might just provide a unique combination of surges.  Heck, there's not really any guarantee that the resultant spren would provide any of the same surges as the spren you created it from, though that at least seems likely.  and to tie it all back to the original prompt - this whole discussion originates form the idea of joining 2 orders - that is a person being aligned enough with 2 different sets of ideals to compy with all of them at once - however there isn't really any guarantee that the joined spren would use ideals that are particularly close to those of its constituent parts.  Bear in Mind Harmony - the combined shard bears almost no resemblance to either Ruin or Preservation, despite being made up of both, so it is at least plausible that somethign similar would happen on a smaller scale if you tried to merge 2 spren.  As an example - you could imagine the sorts of oaths that spren based on Ruin and Preservation might require, but knowing that would give you very little insight into what kinds of oaths a spren based on Harmony would need; just so knowing the honorspren and cultivationspren oaths may not really help you when trying to determine what their combined spren would need.

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, Dunkum said:

well and the other piece is even if the combined spren is sapient and capable of forming a Nahel bond and granting surges there is no guarantee that the resultant spren would give access to more than 2 surges, it might just provide a unique combination of surges.  Heck, there's not really any guarantee that the resultant spren would provide any of the same surges as the spren you created it from, though that at least seems likely.  and to tie it all back to the original prompt - this whole discussion originates form the idea of joining 2 orders - that is a person being aligned enough with 2 different sets of ideals to compy with all of them at once - however there isn't really any guarantee that the joined spren would use ideals that are particularly close to those of its constituent parts.  Bear in Mind Harmony - the combined shard bears almost no resemblance to either Ruin or Preservation, despite being made up of both, so it is at least plausible that somethign similar would happen on a smaller scale if you tried to merge 2 spren.  As an example - you could imagine the sorts of oaths that spren based on Ruin and Preservation might require, but knowing that would give you very little insight into what kinds of oaths a spren based on Harmony would need; just so knowing the honorspren and cultivationspren oaths may not really help you when trying to determine what their combined spren would need.

Those are fair points, honestly.

I guess I was just wishfully thinking.

[Dunkum]

4 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Those are fair points, honestly.

I guess I was just wishfully thinking.

Well, if any of my wild conjecture is right it does still open up a new possibility:  if any of the 45 new spren you get by merging existing radiant spren do have new sets of ideals and new combinations of surges then you might end up with some that are more closely aligned than the existing 10.  for instance right now it is probably just about impossible to be both an edgedancer and a skybreaker - from my perspective their oaths are incompatible with each other - but there might be a new pair of spren in the batch of combinations that could give the same set of 4 surges while having oaths that are more in line with each other.

[Halyo_Alex]

3 hours ago, Dunkum said:

Well, if any of my wild conjecture is right it does still open up a new possibility:  if any of the 45 new spren you get by merging existing radiant spren do have new sets of ideals and new combinations of surges then you might end up with some that are more closely aligned than the existing 10.  for instance right now it is probably just about impossible to be both an edgedancer and a skybreaker - from my perspective their oaths are incompatible with each other - but there might be a new pair of spren in the batch of combinations that could give the same set of 4 surges while having oaths that are more in line with each other.

Oh! Yeah, that's true. Okay, yeah, that would be cool.