GoWibble

Feruchemical Compounding

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Posted (edited)

       So Compounding is really interesting and here is my take on what the various powers should be able to do. I realize that Brandon doesn’t want to give away things for future books (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14) *there are a lot of copper ones)), so a good amount of this isn’t going to be verified until later. 

       Some limitations that I won’t entirely cover are that the person compounding has to have enough metal to ‘burn’ to fuel their compounding, something entirely worth it for most of the powers, that the person can no longer use that metal for the allomantic power that it would normally endow, and savantism.   

       So this is assuming that the Compounder has access to a ridiculous amount of their needed metal, and it is either in a form that they can swallow or make it into something that they can swallow (with C-Speed or something) so that they can just do this and have essentially as much F-[metal] (or C) power as they want.

       (C-[metal] refers to compounding that metal, F-[metal] is feruchemy for that metal, and A-[metal] is allomantically using that metal)

       (the (personal) tags on what the metals store is whether or not the attribute comes from the Compounder, or is able to be ‘given’ to the Compounder (not including unsealed metalminds). The ?’s are ones that I am unsure about (does a pep talk allow you to store determination that someone else was able to give to you?))

       Please comment on some discrepancies and better applications for the compounding powers. 

 

Intro WoB and short explanation

 

Physical:

       Iron: (Skimmer) Stores (personal) weight (when filling, you are lighter) so by filling the metalmind a little bit, a twinborn Skimmer + Lurcher can compound feruchemical iron to have a virtually unlimited density (while somehow remaining able to stand).

       Steel: (Steelrunner) Stores (??: if someone slaps you or runs into you, can you store that kinetic energy?) speed (when filling, you go slower) so you can have essentially enough speed to move at very fast (limited by air resistance and friction)(but if you remove the friction…) in relation to other speeds on the planet. 

       Tin: (WoB)(Windwhisperer) Stores (personal) sensitivity (when filling, you are not as sensitive (for one of 5 senses)). This is not a very effective or useful power because you will be overwhelmed if you simply use massive amounts of storage. See Spook for why this is not a great idea. This is better used in (or like) regular feruchemy, storing a good amount and using it slowly. Specifically, you could likely blind yourself by tapping too much sight, which narrows your focus (Sazed when he meets the Koloss in WoA). If you have other powers, you could store and Compound them, which could be useful.

       Pewter: (WoB) (Brute) Stores (personal) strength (when filling, you are weaker and more scrawny). This would allow for the Compounder to have a huge amount of strength but might make the Compounder too bulky to do anything (Still, his bulk was daunting. He probably wouldn’t have been able to walk or maneuver with such size—but it didn’t matter, for the koloss had already knocked him to the ground. (The Well of Ascension starring Sazed)). Similar to tin in use (don’t use too much at one time)

 

Cognitive:

       Zinc: (WoB: I’m pretty sure that this is referencing filling the metalmind so the opposite is likely true for the tapping) (Sparker) Stores (personal) mental speed (when filling, you think slower). Compounding could allow you to have T. level (going off of the fact that Odium says that he did it without access to Fortune) days every rusting day. Edit: on a mainstream kind of intelligence.  How did TLR die?? With using the compounding, it would be like everyone else was living eternity in a moment of your time, or that you could process the movement of a Steelrunner, but not be able to do much about it. This is scary. 

       Brass: (WoB) (Firesoul) Stores warmth (when filling, you are colder, and heat will flow to the area that you are storing from). This allows you to store heat from around you, which could allow you to act as a freezer, or ignore the heat conditions in your house. From the WoB at the beginning, you are protected from drawing too much heat to damage yourself (Coppermind is wrong on this, based on the WoB). That standing, you can’t just walk through a fire (or a nuke)  and expect that the heat will have no effect on you (mainly for just filling, not the Compounding); you will probably be burned / might die. The opposite is not really as true, because you can just use the compounded heat to melt something like solid hydrogen or a bose-einstein condensate (well, you might experience burns if you are reacting to a bose-einstein condensate without C-Zinc). Essentially, you could be a nuclear reactor and just dump some brass flakes down as fuel. You have a nice amount of energy that is in a usable form of plain heat, which can be turned into a bunch of different types of energy. You could also become Firefight, essentially. 

       Copper: (Archivist) Stores memories (when filling, you lose the memories to the metalmind). We don’t know what the compounding would do (see the various numbered WoBs at the top), but I am under the assumption that compounding would allow you to know multiple copies of something, and be able to store the copies into various metalminds (basically, I think that you can copy the metalmind’s contents to another metalmind).  

       Bronze: (Sentry) Stores (personal) wakefulness (when filling, you are more drowsy). You could constantly stay awake, and even if you did sleep and keep the Compounding on a dull flow, you could still store the excess into metalminds: (while sleeping, he couldn’t fill metalminds - or, at least, he could fill only one. A bronzemind, the metal that stored wakefulness. -The Well of Ascension chapter 50 from Sazed). I kind of doubt that a Sentry & Seeker Twinborn would ever sleep unless they really loved to sleep. Sentry Compounders would also have a heightened sense of awareness (Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum). Oh, and once you start, you don’t want to stop abruptly. This might end up with the same effects as TLR and Atium, eventually. 

 

Spiritual:

       Chromium: (WoBs are RAFOs) (Spinner) Stores (personal) luck (when filling, you are less lucky). This is theorized to allow you to predict the future, and while I think that is possible, I think that a possibly more practical use would be to just be functionally immortal unless you are doomed (inside a black hole level of doomed). I think that when you are Compounding Chromium, something like a possibility of time travel would occur: (back in time you try to shoot someone who turns out to be one of your ancestors) something would happen to stop the attacker from being in the right place, have an empty cartridge, or intercept the threat (i.e. a deer runs in front of your great (* whatever) grandparent). Unless physics or something similar would forbid it, you would be saved from ‘fate’. An avalanche might happen, but you might be caught on a tree that was bent and flings you up, you could fall into a cave, or get whisked up the mountain by an alien spaceship that was passing by. You probably couldn’t commit suicide while Compounding Luck. The only downside is that you couldn’t use your chromium to leech anyone’s allomantic stores if they are all filled with Luck, but if it is needed, someone else might end up doing it for you. 

       Nicrosil: (WoBs are RAFOs) (Soulbearer) Stores (the ability to use) Investiture (when filling, you store your ability to use a certain type of Investiture). When you compound it, you would have an unlimited supply of Investiture, which you could theoretically use to power your magic systems to massively larger levels of power. If you are a Mistborn and a Soulbearer, you would be virtually unstoppable (unless you are already dying, and in that case, someone better have a spike to steal the Feruchemy and MB powers). And with storing powers, you could Compound and use KR powers. And you could worldhop (though it might short out Harmony’s perpendicularity). And this is (probably) a NB protection power. 

       Aluminum: (most WoBs are RAFOs) (Trueself) Stores (personal) Identity (when filling, you store your Spiritual Identity to something (and it is possible to store all of your identity: see BoM)) with a large sense of Identity, you couldn’t do much, but you might be able to heal yourself like Hoid does (healing through a relation to the Spiritual Realm). If you tap old Identity, you could possibly rewrite your spiritweb so that you could heal back to a previous state. With someone else’s Identity, you can do plenty. You could theoretically become someone from the various areas on Sel, someone from Roshar (the Nightwatcher likes native people more), gain an accent, use someone else’s’ metalmind, or hack and use it as a soulstamp. You might also be able to be inhabited by their ghost Cognitive Shadow and essentially let them body-snatch your body (see lower in the thread). Not as useful as Connection. 

       Duralumin: (Connector) Stores Connection (linked between two things) (when filling, you are storing Connection to something). This allows you to go unnoticed in a crowd if you are filling, but with the Compounding, you could instantly become anyone’s best friend (unless their best friend is already a Duralumin Compounder). There are some cool things that you can do with other people’s Connection too. (Spoiler for MB SH) When Kelsier smashes the orb to gain a bunch of Connection to Preservation, and if you give him an unsealed Duralumin metalmind, and convince him to store some of that Connection, you could theoretically take that Connection out of the metalmind and Compound that to gain a ton of Connection to Preservation, which could allow you to ascend to that Shard when it dies. If you repeat this with other people, you could learn languages, steal spren bonds / aviar bonds (you might be able to become a human aviar this way) (they will only stay if they agree to stay), or get enough Connection to get the Awakener from something that the filler of the unsealed metalmind Awakened, even if they Returned since then. You can also overcome the distance barrier on Sel (helps with initiation to other planets’ magics). You should be able to qualify for being a Returned, somehow control a Kandra, or bond an Honorblade (you just have to be aware enough of your Connection to it to Compound to Bond it). This is really powerful. 

 

Hybrid:

       Cadmium: (no one really asks Brandon about F-Cadmium users) (Gasper) Stores oxygen ‘breath’ (when filling, you are short of breath). This would allow you to have an unlimited supply of ‘breath’. You don’t have to breathe anymore. It also might allow you to get more oxygen in your blood (to your brain), which would give you a bit more of a heightened perception and possibly mental speed, physical performance, and concentration (Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum).

       Bendalloy: (Subsumer) Stores (personal) nutrition (‘energy’) (when filling, you store nutrition (and matter?) from yourself) You might become skinnier when (filling) not eating, and when eating, you don’t ever need to be full (Alloy of Law again). While compounding, you don’t ever need to eat, but you might gain a significant amount of weight if you deplete the metalminds quickly, but not so much that you explode (the Feruchemy will protect you). Probably. (the feruchemy might just stop your veins from getting clogged or something similar. Lift could use this to fuel Stormlight endlessly. 

       Gold: (Bloodmaker) Stores (personal) health (when filling, you are less healthy). This should allow you to heal back from (almost) whatever, provided that you still picture your Spiritweb as being what it was before you were injured. (see Max Hundredlives in Allow of Law). You could theoretically heal back from getting spiked

       Electrum: (Pinnacle) Stores (personal?) determination (when filling, you store your determination and are more depressed). When Compounded, you would be very impulsive and overconfident that you could do whatever you wanted (Alloy of Law Ars arcanum). This could be dangerous to yourself by thinking that you can (and should) do something that will kill you. Best used in small amounts. 

 

Godmetals:

Lerasium: Only Brandon knows, and we probably won’t ever see. 

Atium: Stores (personal) Youthfulness (when filling, you are older). We see this onscreen with TLR and it is mentioned with Marsh. Limitations here.

Harmonium: No rusting clue except RAFO

 

There are ways to become more powerful than a compounder (in some ways), but that would require being a Mistborn, using a spike, or getting hit with a Nicroburst (the power, not the user). 

Other limitations on Compounding are that you have to use Harmony’s power and there is also a weird interaction with Hemalurgy.

Edited by GoWibble
added Nicroburst to end
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This is impressive.

Even if you are a Compounder, you are able to use your metal Allomantically. For instance, Miles burns normal gold before the heist.

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20 hours ago, Mist said:

This is impressive.

Even if you are a Compounder, you are able to use your metal Allomantically. For instance, Miles burns normal gold before the heist.

So if you invest the metal, then the allomancy isn't going to work (on a spectrum of:) not as well - not at all

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1 hour ago, GoWibble said:

So if you invest the metal, then the allomancy isn't going to work (on a spectrum of:) not as well - not at all

Quote

Some limitations that I won’t entirely cover are that the person compounding has to have enough metal to ‘burn’ to fuel their compounding, something entirely worth it for most of the powers, that the person can no longer use that metal for the allomantic power that it would normally endow, and savantism.   

Apologies. I misunderstood what you meant.

You are correct. They would need to have Feruchemically Invested metal and non-Invested metal. 

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On 12/06/2020 at 9:41 PM, GoWibble said:

       Aluminum: (most WoBs are RAFOs) (Trueself) Stores (personal) Identity (when filling, you store your Spiritual Identity to something (and it is possible to store all of your identity: see BoM)) with a large sense of Identity, you couldn’t do much, but you might be able to heal yourself like Hoid does (healing through a relation to the Spiritual Realm). With someone else’s Identity, you can do plenty. You could theoretically become someone from the various areas on Sel, someone from Roshar (the Nightwatcher likes native people more), gain an accent, use someone else’s’ metalmind, or hack and use it as a soulstamp. Not as useful as Connection.

 

Is that a way to protect you from emotional allomancy?

Can you use this to shake off Harmony getting at you through your spikes?

If you compound older Identity, do you return to that stage, that is, do you become ageless?

Or, Harry Potter style, resurrection through an anchor?

 

And can you make selective shielding? One might speculate that aluminium storiing Identity has a relation to the reason aluminium seems so inert.

(Roshar)

Spoiler

You can use Surges through your own Plate.

So if you put your Identity into aluminium, would you have a piece of alumium that lets your allomancy pass yet blocks everything else?

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Is that a way to protect you from emotional allomancy?

Can you use this to shake off Harmony getting at you through your spikes?

So I think that this is coming from this WoB:

Spoiler
Quote

sebarial

Would a Feruchemist actively storing Identity be more susceptible to Forgery? Would more outlandish changes be able to take effect? Thanks for your time, and have a wonderful day.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, if you store Identity, it makes you susceptible to ALL KINDS of things in the Cosmere. Forgery would be on the short list.

bubblebooy

Does the difficulty of affecting metals in a body with Allomancy have to do with Identity?

Brandon Sanderson

No, more to do with the fact that most people are innately Invested in the Cosmere--and certain planets have extra Investiture. Something Invested is more difficult to transform/move/etc with another form of Investiture.

bubblebooy

That is what I had originally thought before you capitalized "ALL KINDS." Is Soulcasting people like Jasnah Kholin did doubly hard since people a have a strong sense of Identity and have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

We're getting a bit far on this course, so it's time to pull out the RAFOs. I don't want to overplay my hand and leave the books without anything to talk about. :)

Phantine

Does that 'inside a body' thing work on most magics?

For instance, if Han stuck Luke into a Mistborn Tauntaun (a distant and unlucky relative of the mistborn llama), would Luke be protected from both the cold and emotional allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

He'd have to get him inside a living one.

It does work on most magics, though the interactions can be odd unless you know a lot about the workings. Emotional Allomancy, for example, works by lapping against the outsides of someone's cognitive self, influencing you the way music might stir your soul. So being inside a living body wouldn't necessarily stop it--you'd just have more interference. Kind of like how you can still hear music outside if it's loud enough.

Actual mind control in the cosmere requires you to get INSIDE the soul, which you've seen happen frequently enough. There has to be a gap or an opening.

Or, conversely, you just have to be so powerful that you can push through the interference.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015)

Which is saying that the opposite should be true. This might work against emotional allomancy, but I can't find what emotional allomancy affects the recipient through. I think that protection from harmony would be more effective, but Harmony is effectively 2 Shards, so good luck blocking what he decides to do. 

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

If you compound older Identity, do you return to that stage, that is, do you become ageless?

I think that you could possibly heal to that stage, but I don't think that you could return to that stage. 

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Or, Harry Potter style, resurrection through an anchor?

You are going to have to explain where you are coming from on this one, because I have no clue. 

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And can you make selective shielding? One might speculate that aluminium storing Identity has a relation to the reason aluminium seems so inert.

(Roshar)

  Reveal hidden contents

You can use Surges through your own Plate.

So if you put your Identity into aluminium, would you have a piece of aluminum that lets your allomancy pass yet blocks everything else?

Yeah, that seems possible. like a one way mirror or bio-metric security. 

 

Edited by GoWibble
spoilered the WoB for size
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4 minutes ago, GoWibble said:

I think that you could possibly heal to that stage, but I don't think that you could return to that stage.

Why? Isn't your age that part of your spiritual Identity?

4 minutes ago, GoWibble said:

You are going to have to explain where you are coming from on this one, because I have no clue.

OK, suppose you have recorded your Identity. And your trusted minions torture a Fering into storing his own Identity and tapping your Identity. Does he become you to the point that your recently deceased soul can take over his or her body?

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1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

Why? Isn't your age that part of your spiritual Identity?

So you are essentially changing your sDNA to be something previous, but I don't really see how you are going to change the physical unless you heal to that state. Maybe if you tap the metalmind, it might do it, but I think that healing is a more sure option. 

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

OK, suppose you have recorded your Identity. And your trusted minions torture a Ferring into storing his own Identity and tapping your Identity. Does he become you to the point that your recently deceased soul can take over his or her body?

I want to say yes. I think so. yeah, that might work.  

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

OK, suppose you have recorded your Identity. And your trusted minions torture a Fering into storing his own Identity and tapping your Identity. Does he become you to the point that your recently deceased soul can take over his or her body?

Assuming you don't go into the Beyond first, you could probably take over a body with no Identity, since it wouldn't have a Cognitive Shadow but would still be alive. On the other hand, if they tapped your c-Aluminium, wouldn't they become a clone of you from before you died essentially?

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54 minutes ago, Hoidolasium said:

Assuming you don't go into the Beyond first, you could probably take over a body with no Identity, since it wouldn't have a Cognitive Shadow but would still be alive. On the other hand, if they tapped your c-Aluminium, wouldn't they become a clone of you from before you died essentially?

Well, memories at least store separately from Identity, so the copy would be incomplete.

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4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, memories at least store separately from Identity, so the copy would be incomplete.

Can you find the WoB on that? I believe you, I just want to read that one now. 

It really raises the question of what Identity actually is, since it can't contain your personality as that is almost entirely decided by your upbringing and memories. If you stored all your Identity and all your memories, what would actually be the difference between the two? 

 

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9 minutes ago, Hoidolasium said:

Can you find the WoB on that? I believe you, I just want to read that one now. 

I can look, but isn't that the point of F-copper? Brandon isn't wordy about Identity.

WOB on Identity

9 minutes ago, Hoidolasium said:

It really raises the question of what Identity actually is, since it can't contain your personality as that is almost entirely decided by your upbringing and memories.

Why can't it? Alterable attributes can be stored, obviously, again: copper..

9 minutes ago, Hoidolasium said:

If you stored all your Identity and all your memories, what would actually be the difference between the two?

That is a religious question, I am afraid.

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This thread has gone way over my head. But I love it.

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On 6/12/2020 at 3:41 PM, GoWibble said:

Tin: (WoB)(Windwhisperer) Stores (personal) sensitivity (when filling, you are not as sensitive (for one of 5 senses)). This is not a very effective or useful power because you will be overwhelmed if you simply use massive amounts of storage. See Spook for why this is not a great idea. This is better used in (or like) regular feruchemy, storing a good amount and using it slowly. 

I think you might be underrating this, though to get maximal use out of it would require combining it with some things.  but basically, there is no reason to belive this is limited to the traditional 5 senses.  for one thing, most of those senses could reasonably be broken down further - e.g. color vision is moderated by different cells in your eyes than the ones that detect the intensity of light (rods vs cones) so for someone well educated in that area, it might be plausible that their understanding of the sense might allow them to selectively store color vision at which point tapping it could allow them to gain a similar heightened color perception like the 3rd(?) heightening, without havign to worry about overwhelming themselves with the intensity of the light.  that's just one example, but other non-traditional senses include your sense of balance, your sense of proprioception (ability to know where parts of your body are in relation to each other wihtout seeing them), distinct sense for pain, pressure, and heat (as opposed to a single sense of touch), distinct senses for each individual flavor, etc.  but more interesting to me is the idea that things like the blue lines from burning iron/steel or the pulses from bronze could be considered distinct senses (or the life-sense from having breaths).  in which case someone who somehow has access to that in addition to tin compounding could drastically increase the sensitivity of these extra-normal senses.

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1 hour ago, Dunkum said:

that's just one example, but other non-traditional senses include your sense of balance, your sense of proprioception (ability to know where parts of your body are in relation to each other wihtout seeing them), distinct sense for pain, pressure, and heat (as opposed to a single sense of touch), distinct senses for each individual flavor,

So I discounted this because the compounding power isn't that much better than plain Feruchemy

1 hour ago, Dunkum said:

but more interesting to me is the idea that things like the blue lines from burning iron/steel or the pulses from bronze could be considered distinct senses (or the life-sense from having breaths).  in which case someone who somehow has access to that in addition to tin compounding could drastically increase the sensitivity of these extra-normal senses.

I guess. Steel / Iron sight with extended perception might make it so that you can sense things further away... or you might be able to have inquisitor steelsight... but you would have to have the other powers in addition to C-Tin

 

Something more for tin that I realized on my reread of mb is that when Sazed taps sight, his focus gets narrowed. This could be dangerous for your eyes if it is used too much. 

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19 hours ago, Hoidolasium said:

If you stored all your Identity and all your memories, what would actually be the difference between the two? 

I don't necessarily think that this is religious, so I'll try to explain:

Your Identity (in the cosmere sense) is how you relate to Investiture on a personal level. This includes what magics you can use and your relation to personal investiture (like Breath). I don't really see how this could store memories. 

Copper stores your personal thoughts and ideas. I don't see how this relates to your relation to your personal magic. 

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Right, I was thinking that Identity was partially your personality and other traits, not just your relation to Investiture.

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1 hour ago, Dunkum said:

but more interesting to me is the idea that things like the blue lines from burning iron/steel or the pulses from bronze could be considered distinct senses (or the life-sense from having breaths).  in which case someone who somehow has access to that in addition to tin compounding could drastically increase the sensitivity of these extra-normal senses.

reference for this, because I was pretty sure there was a WOB to this effect, but didnt have time to look for it before:
 

Quote

NewbSombrero

Can Feruchemical tin store Allomantically granted senses like bronze sense?

Brandon Sanderson

Possible.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316-general-signed-books-2018/#e9199

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Ok, I've added the theories that I think could work and added the WoB that is right above this message.

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Posted (edited)

Alright, I just wanted to say that we are mainly considering compounding Feruchemy with Allomancy. We can also compound Allomancy using Feruchemy. This is in my opinion how the Lord Ruler gets his strength without the muscle mass. (Store A-Pewter strength into F-Pewter, burn F-Pewter)

Edited by The_Truthwatcher
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10 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Alright, I just wanted to say that we are mainly considering compounding Feruchemy with Allomancy. We can also compound Allomancy using Feruchemy. This is in my opinion how the Lord Ruler gets his strength without the muscle mass. (Store A-Pewter strength into F-Pewter, burn F-Pewter)

Yep. I mentioned that in a post about questioning how The Lord Ruler died. This is just Feruchemical Compounding. We don't entirely know how Compounding Allomancy works yet.

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Very interesting for me is Bronze Compounder. Probably will be also Savant of A-Bronze, as often happens. He doesnt need sleep, but his powers extend to other aspects of phisical condition? Like, can he fight longer than normal human, because he will  be able to stand on feet, when opponent will be fatigued.

Also about tin compounding. Ferruchemical Tin is safer than Allomantic Tin, because can store every sense separatly, so man can boost only senses what he need. And Tin compunding savant will be almost as dangerous as A-Atium.

Zinc compounder has also similar effect.

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8 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Probably will be also Savant of A-Bronze

So they aren't really using A-Bronze, so why would they be a savant?

11 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

He doesnt need sleep, but his powers extend to other aspects of phisical condition? Like, can he fight longer than normal human, because he will  be able to stand on feet, when opponent will be fatigued

Bronze stores wakefulness, so he could fight for longer, in the strict sense of staying awake, but I think that they will get fatigued at a similar rate.

12 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

And Tin compunding savant will be almost as dangerous as A-Atium.

Like what Spook did? I guess... kind of. A-Atium is also kind of different and extreme in that you can actually see what is going to happen in the future, so you could be warned of something like a sniper bullet before it happens, and get out of the way.

14 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Zinc compounder has also similar effect.

Also kind of. They are really smart, but can't sense the same things that a Tin compounder / savant / A-Atium person can

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11 minutes ago, GoWibble said:

So they aren't really using A-Bronze, so why would they be a savant?

no reason to assume they wouldnt use A-bronze, but not really any reason to assume they'd be a savant either.  i doubt A-bronze would end up being all that useful in a figth anyway.  not 0, btu not particularly high on the list

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1 minute ago, Dunkum said:

no reason to assume they wouldnt use A-bronze, but not really any reason to assume they'd be a savant either.  i doubt A-bronze would end up being all that useful in a figth anyway.  not 0, btu not particularly high on the list

If they are staying awake all the time, you are going to use a large amount of the bronze that you get for staying awake, so you could likely use all of it for that. You don't have to, and you could seek, I guess.

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