Karger

Scadrial is embarrassingly behind in relmatics.

18 posts in this topic

Scadrail is probably the most advanced of the known shardworlds in terms of economics, science, and technology(Taldain is weird).  Unlike most shardworlds they have a large literate society that has a good understanding of their investiture.  Despite this most of them know next to nothing about relmatics.  Assuming they manage to develop mathematical theory at around the same speed is their technology they are due for a general theory of relativity soon that will indicate FTL is impossible.  However bronze pulses should move FTL.  This is the only way I can think of for them to start to figure out the theory of the three realms.  Am I missing something or will scadrians have to start copying Rosharan homework?

Edited by Karger
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Not sure what the spoiler policies are, so...

(spoiler for MB SH and BoM and OB, I guess)

Spoiler

well, depending on how much Kelsier chooses to share about what he learned, then Scadrians might be more learned. Harmony is also kind of being held back / holding back from explaining, while Roshar had 3 Shards on it, and active transitions with the magic system there. (and no one knows much about the Spiritual Realm)

 

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Cognitive travel isn't really built into the Metallic Arts as much as it is on Roshar, but Nalthis, Taldain, Sel are still more Realmatically aware...

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55 minutes ago, GoWibble said:

Not sure what the spoiler policies are, so...

(spoiler for MB SH and BoM and OB, I guess)

  Hide contents

well, depending on how much Kelsier chooses to share about what he learned, then Scadrians might be more learned. Harmony is also kind of being held back / holding back from explaining, while Roshar had 3 Shards on it, and active transitions with the magic system there. (and no one knows much about the Spiritual Realm)

 

Good point, especially Southern Scadrians. 

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18 minutes ago, R J said:

but Nalthis, Taldain, Sel are still more Realmatically aware...

somehow, the places that didn't have a huge war in their past are better at science and realmatics

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As the Metallic Arts do not provide evidence of the Realms (except for maybe Hemalurgy, but not really), the Scadrians probably won't learn Realmatic Theory until Kelsier, Harmony, or a worldhopper tells them about it. I expect Scadrial to invent FTL spaceships and colonize their patch of the universe before they learn Realmatic Theory. Then a worldhopper comes along to check out the space empire, and they discover that people from other planets can walk through space by going to a weird place called "The Cognitive Realm" which completely upheaves their scientific theory of everything.

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26 minutes ago, GoWibble said:

somehow, the places that didn't have a huge war in their past are better at science and realmatics

They really are not.  None of them can make aluminum via nonemagical means for example and none of them have gunpowder. 

1 hour ago, GoWibble said:

(spoiler for MB SH and BoM and OB, I guess)

Not necessary.  Cosmere discussion is all cosmere works out of spoiler period.

Edited by Karger
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33 minutes ago, GoWibble said:

somehow, the places that didn't have a huge war in their past are better at science and realmatics

Huh, true. In the real world, conflict fuelled invention but their conflicts were rather more cataclysmic (Desolations, Rashek's Ascension). But maybe that is what will end up giving them the push.

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16 minutes ago, Karger said:

They really are not.  None of them can make aluminum via nonemagical means for example and none of them have gunpowder. 

Well, science in the area of worldhopping and realmatics

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Taldain & Threnody also have gunpowder

Scadrial was only late because of the Final Empire

Roshar is very aware of Realmatic theories because of spren & Soulcasters as well as historic Radiants

Edited by R J
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Hey, give the Scadrians a break - they haven't had nearly as much time as those other places to explore!

By "Realmatics" you mean a theoretical understanding of Cosmere magic, at a deeper, more fundamental level than the natural local expression of it, right? Like when Shai talks about the Three Realms and how her Forgery interacted or manipulated them, and of course, any worldhopping via the CR.

Studying Realmatics from a magical perspective requires the ability to access and then to study Investiture (as on Nalthis, the golden age of discovery was in the era of the Five Scholars). Or, to worldhop away - which means easy access to a Perpendicularity. Even if the Scadrian Metallic Arts are very powerful and portable off-world, they've actually been very circumscribed for most of their history.

In "Classical" Scadrial, before Rashek, Allomancers (expressed only as Mistings) were very rare - they maybe didn't even really know what they were, especially as a pretty severe Snapping experience was required? Any application hemalurgy was essentially dormant potential, and the most common kind of Investiture manipulation was done by Terris Feruchemists, who were isolated and conservative.

After Rashek, Allomancy in particular became far more common (at least in the Final Empire - not in the South), and hemalurgy too, but study of such things was suppressed by TLR. He worked very hard to reverse and to prevent ordinary technological advances such as gunpowder, steam engines, etc., to maintain his power built on Allomancy and controlling its use. And even when it came to preserving suppressed knowledge, as with the Keepers, Ruin was busy twiddling things to build towards his eventual release.

As for the Perpendicularites that allowed relatively straightforward physical access into the Cognitive Realm, the Pits of Hathsin were heavily guarded in the Final Empire, and as we saw in Secret History, the power in the Well of Ascension was too busy being used to imprison Ruin to be an easy/safe way across.

Finally, the most Realmatically oriented metals in Allomancy and Feruchemy were the rarest to get, even impossible to get, until recently. So whatever pre-FE "Worldbringer" Feruchemists had developed any deeper understanding of how Feruchemy worked, they still wouldn't have had access to the metals for the most Realmatically linked attributes: aluminum (Identity), nicrosil (Investiture), chromium (Fortune), or duralumin (Connection).

They could maybe have figured out about how goldminds worked, based on what it could heal and what it couldn't, but since all their metalminds were keyed to Identity, there was kind of no way for them to realize "aha, the healing maps to a Cognitive image of self!" because it was always the Feruchemist healing him/herself - there was no way to do an external experiment!

So really, it's only been in the 350-ish years since the Catacendre that people have been free to openly use and to study all forms of Scadrian Investiture... With a very, very small population of people able to do it, since the world was winnowed down to around 10,000 individuals, with only latent Feruchemy in the Terris population, most Allomancers having been wiped out, one surviving Mistborn in Spook.

The Southerners are the most aware as of The Bands of Mourning only because the Sovereign, a Sliverized Kelsier with a reincorporated Physical form, went down and Did Stuff, Gave Them Stuff, and Explained Stuff to them.

Didn't VenDell say something about how Harmony had dropped hints about stuff like that to the kandra, but wanted Scadrians (including kandra) to figure it out on their own?

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33 minutes ago, robardin said:

Well of Ascension was too busy being used to imprison Ruin to be an easy/safe way across.

This just made me think that the fight scene between Kel and hoid was partially due to Ruin

 

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1 hour ago, GoWibble said:

This just made me think that the fight scene between Kel and hoid was partially due to Ruin

 

This just reminded me of the conspiracy theory that TLR was hiding Atium in cans of food and stuff that was being sent off-world through the Pits perpendicularity, as a lining to the inside of the cans.

the tldr is that Atium is like a platinum group metal, and similar enough to tin visually that the inside can surface would be fairly indistinguishable from tin (plus with wherever the cans are going, people won't necessarily even know about Atium). So there's now a fortune's worth of Atium scattered throughout the Cosmere, hidden inside tin cans.

If i remember right, didn't Kaladin and the others eat from cans of food in Shadesmar? ...they might have actually been right there, holding some Atium, and didn't even know.

 

My memory could be wrong though, and this is of course a conspiracy theory (but there was a really solidly written reddit post about it...)

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9 hours ago, robardin said:

Finally, the most Realmatically oriented metals in Allomancy and Feruchemy were the rarest to get, even impossible to get, until recently. So whatever pre-FE "Worldbringer" Feruchemists had developed any deeper understanding of how Feruchemy worked, they still wouldn't have had access to the metals for the most Realmatically linked attributes: aluminum (Identity), nicrosil (Investiture), chromium (Fortune), or duralumin (Connection).

They had chromium at least that's how they got the Hero of Ages prophesies.

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7 hours ago, Frustration said:

They had chromium at least that's how they got the Hero of Ages prophesies.

What, really? Where is/was that mentioned? Interesting!

In BoM, when he's giving his little discourse on their "modern" understanding of the Metallic Arts, VenDell specifically mentions it along with nicrosil, aluminum, and duralumin as not being metals that most ancients knew. "Only in recent times have modern metallurgical processes allowed them tho become commonplace."

While aluminum was known in the Final Empire (since the Inquisitors applied it to Vin, and it was mentioned on a Ministry plaque from TLR), it was "harvested from the inside of the Ashmounts", not exactly easy to do. And in our own world, chromium was discovered only fairly recently as well.

Side question: do we know from a WoB which of the two base metals - chromium (alloy: nicrosil) or cadmium (alloy: bendalloy) - was removed from the "Allomantic Table" that produced Mistings, to allow for atium (alloy: malatium??) Mistings to occur? That didn't mean Mistborn or Feruchemists couldn't use those metals, right, just that there would be no Mistings naturally occuring?

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10 hours ago, Frustration said:

They had chromium at least that's how they got the Hero of Ages prophesies.

We don't know where those prophesies came from.

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2 hours ago, Karger said:

We don't know where those prophesies came from.

I'm pretty sure there was a WoB about it.(I'll try to link it later) and that's the only thing that makes sense.

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23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'm pretty sure there was a WoB about it.(I'll try to link it later) and that's the only thing that makes sense.

Quote

Chaos

How were the Terris Prophecies created in the first place? Every other magic related thing is quite logically explained in terms of Ruin and Preservation, except that one.

Brandon Sanderson

The Terris prophecies were created by Preservation before he attempted his imprisonment. He knew that he wouldn't be able to do much for the world after he did what he did, and he foresaw a LOT of what was to come.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

Beat you to it.  Seems pretty conclusive my way.

Edited by Karger
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