Speed Bubble Physics

[theTruthshaper]

While Mr. Sanderson has said that there are no relativity effects in speed bubbles, I still wondered what sort of effects would arise. Then, I discovered that irradiation would be the least of the weird effects.

Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity states that, in all inertial frames the laws of Physics and the speed of light is the same.

So, for Wayne's bubble, we can easily see that simply speeding up the time would result in an observer outside the bubble measuring a higher speed of light inside the bubble. The only way to counteract this would if, for the outside observer, the inside of the bubble is contracted in the same ratio in which the time is dilated.

This essentially means that an external observer would observe the inside of the bubble as 8 times as small (Time is sped up by approx. 8 times).

Conversely, for Wayne the outside world would be stretched out.

As another consequences of this, the speed of all objects is the same when measured from inside and outside the bubble.

If there are any mistakes, please tell me.

Edited June 9, 2020 by The_Elsecaller

[Frustration]

17 minutes ago, The_Elsecaller said:

While Mr. Sanderson has said that there are no relativity effects in speed bubbles, I still wondered what sort of effects would arise. Then, I discovered that irradiation would be the least of the weird effects.

Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity states that, in all inertial frames the laws of Physics and the speed of light is the same.

So, for Wayne's bubble, we can easily see that simply speeding up the time would result in an observer outside the bubble measuring a higher speed of light inside the bubble. The only way to counteract this would if, for the outside observer, the inside of the bubble is contracted in the same ratio in which the time is dilated.

This essentially means that an external observer would observe the inside of the bubble as 8 times as small (Time is sped up by approx. 8 times).

I think that investitures immune to your own magic rule would counter that

18 minutes ago, The_Elsecaller said:

As another consequences of this, the speed of all objects is the same inside and outside the bubble.

I don't think that the relative speed changes, i.e. an object moving 1 mph inside would leave the bubble and move at 1 mph outside

[theTruthshaper]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I think that investitures immune to your own magic rule would counter that

I don't understand what you are saying here.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't think that the relative speed changes, i.e. an object moving 1 mph inside would leave the bubble and move at 1 mph outside

I meant the speed of an object inside the bubble measured by the an observer outside the bubble. I edited the original post to more accurately reflect this.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, The_Elsecaller said:

I don't understand what you are saying here.

Investiture generally makes you immune to your own magic.

[+Oltux72]

We do not know what happens at the boundary layer. For all we know that will slow the light down.

[theTruthshaper]

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

We do not know what happens at the boundary layer. For all we know that will slow the light down.

This is not about what happens at the boundary layer. This is how the inside of the bubble will appear to a person outside it. This is independent of whatever happens at the boundary layer. Also, I have already specified that I am ignoring Mr. Sanderson's handwave of Relativity effects.

 

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Investiture generally makes you immune to your own magic.

But, how is this relevant here?

[+Oltux72]

36 minutes ago, The_Elsecaller said:

This is not about what happens at the boundary layer. This is how the inside of the bubble will appear to a person outside it. This is independent of whatever happens at the boundary layer.

Well, no. To somebody inside the speed bubble everything is alright. As are things outside the bubble. The problem arises only if you cross the boundary of the bubble, to determine the distance between objects inside and outside the bubble. (Or if you send a signal through the bubble - same issue). Indeed  you would get a superluminal signal, unless the bubble shrank or something else slows down the signal at another place. That something may be the boundary layer.
We know that something happens at the boudary. Otherwise you would be fried by blueshift and the Second Law of Thermodynamics would be violated.

[theTruthshaper]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, no. To somebody inside the speed bubble everything is alright. As are things outside the bubble. The problem arises only if you cross the boundary of the bubble, to determine the distance between objects inside and outside the bubble. (Or if you send a signal through the bubble - same issue). Indeed  you would get a superluminal signal, unless the bubble shrank or something else slows down the signal at another place. That something may be the boundary layer.
We know that something happens at the boudary. Otherwise you would be fried by blueshift and the Second Law of Thermodynamics would be violated.

I know about this. I am wondering about what would physically happen if Mr. Sanderson had NOT handwaved this issue. I am wondering about the physical consequences.

Edit: Spelling

Edited June 9, 2020 by The_Elsecaller

[Quantus]

If it helps, I think this is the general analysis that led them to magic handwave the redshift radiation aspect of bubbles:

 

Quote

 

Peter Ahlstrom

OK guys, help me out on this.

Let's take a bubble where time is sped up inside, maybe to 10x, maybe to 100x. I'm thinking that if there is no light source inside the bubble, but all light comes from the area outside the bubble, to an observer outside the bubble all light that goes inside and gets redshifted will get blueshifted back the same amount when it exits the bubble. So the outside observer won't see a color change at all. (I'm ignoring refraction for the purposes of this post, but someone else may elucidate.)

The person inside the bubble will see a redshift of all light coming into the bubble--but will also see far fewer photons per second, so the world will go dim or even black.

At low time-speedups, the person in the bubble will see UV light shifted into the visible range, so will start effectively seeing in UV. At very fast speeds he can see X rays or even gamma rays. (I don't know from Brandon what the max speedup is.)

If the person inside the bubble turns on a flashlight, this will be shifted into the UV or X-ray range when it leaves the bubble. You can fry everyone around you with deadly radiation this way.

When you have a bubble that slows time, the opposite happens. People inside can see in infrared or radio waves. And if they go slow enough, visible light from the outside is shifted into the X-ray or gamma-ray range and the person inside gets fried by radiation. If they turn on a flashlight, people outside get cooked.

Can anyone point out flaws in this analysis? Does anyone have magical suggestions for why any of these things wouldn't happen?

For practical reasons it looks like there will need to be a lot of handwavium burned.

Miscellaneous 2010 (Dec. 7, 2010)

 

 

[theTruthshaper]

This is sort of what I am talking about but it does not talk about relativity which is what my post was about. I am also not talking about the light that is going across the boundary of the bubble.

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, The_Elsecaller said:

This is sort of what I am talking about but it does not talk about relativity which is what my post was about. I am also not talking about the light that is going across the boundary of the bubble.

Sorry, I didnt elaborate on my train of thought.  If you are correct that there is gravitational/relativistic contraction of space within the bubble, it would be a stretching of space-time more than a normal, physical strain on the matter inside the bubble, so there might not be much in the way of physical evidence of it.  On top of that, the same mechanisms that prevent the red shift and irradiation dangers might provide a lensing effect that hides the space-time stretch and makes it appear more or less normal.   

[theTruthshaper]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

Sorry, I didnt elaborate on my train of thought.  If you are correct that there is gravitational/relativistic contraction of space within the bubble, it would be a stretching of space-time more than a normal, physical strain on the matter inside the bubble, so there might not be much in the way of physical evidence of it.  On top of that, the same mechanisms that prevent the red shift and irradiation dangers might provide a lensing effect that hides the space-time stretch and makes it appear more or less normal.   

I am just wondering what the Relativity effects will be. I know that nothing like this will actually happen in Mistborn. This is essentially speculation on what would happen without the mechanisms.