How wrong were Nale and Ishar?

[+Oltux72]

In hindsight Nale has failed. Taln broke and a desolation has started. It would be easy to conclude that he was a fool and needlessly slaughtered people.

However, would that be correct? The interaction of Odium and Dalinar strongly suggested that Dalinar could rescind the oathpact. There is also Gavilar's experimentation with the black spheres. Is it possible that Radiants could actually trigger a desolation?

[Quantus]

I think it's a bit of a Chicken/Egg thing going on there.  We know by WOB that the presence of the Heralds directly triggers a new Desolation.  The Heralds thought if one went back they'd prevent the Desolation from happening, though they were apparently wrong.  I suspect that the Spren were able to sense the Desolation coming and were making the leap to Bond humans again as a response to that coming storm.  

So to your question, I think Nale was indeed just plain Wrong.  However, my dominant Tinfoil at this point is that Ishar knew exactly what it was doing (and not doing) and is manipulating Nale for his own Mad purposes. 

[+robardin]

41 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I think it's a bit of a Chicken/Egg thing going on there.  We know by WOB that the presence of the Heralds directly triggers a new Desolation.  The Heralds thought if one went back they'd prevent the Desolation from happening, though they were apparently wrong.  I suspect that the Spren were able to sense the Desolation coming and were making the leap to Bond humans again as a response to that coming storm.  

So to your question, I think Nale was indeed just plain Wrong.  However, my dominant Tinfoil at this point is that Ishar knew exactly what it was doing (and not doing) and is manipulating Nale for his own Mad purposes. 

Well, what Nale was "just plain wrong" about (and was apparently fed by Ishar, I agree with that 100%) was that people forming Nahel bonds would trigger the True Desolation. On the other hand, having just Taln go back does appear to have "been enough" to prevent "regular" Desolations, as there wasn't one for over 5,000 years, which a momentarily sane Taln found "wonderful".

[+Oltux72]

46 minutes ago, robardin said:

Well, what Nale was "just plain wrong" about (and was apparently fed by Ishar, I agree with that 100%) was that people forming Nahel bonds would trigger the True Desolation.

Well, yes, but that was not what he feared:

Edgedancer:

Quote

If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths. Without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds.

He never feared the Nahel Bond itself. He thought that it was the prerequisite to another development that needed to be feared. And Gavilar seems to have discovered that the oathpact can indeed be (ab)used for other purposes.

[+robardin]

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, yes, but that was not what he feared:

Edgedancer:

He never feared the Nahel Bond itself. He thought that it was the prerequisite to another development that needed to be feared. And Gavilar seems to have discovered that the oathpact can indeed be (ab)used for other purposes.

Hmm. I never read that into his comment to Lift in Edgedancer, but yeah, "the greather power of the oaths" and "without Honor to regulate this... [might] allow the Voidbringers [to return]" does suggest it.

I wonder what "greater power of the oaths" means? The further Ideals? Or something else?

Edited June 5, 2020 by robardin

[Nellac]

I mean, what definition of voidbringer are they using here? Perhaps Nahel is worried that without honor the new Radiants would be less virtuous and become terrible conquerers like the original men on Roshar were.

[+Oltux72]

5 minutes ago, Nellac said:

I mean, what definition of voidbringer are they using here? Perhaps Nahel is worried that without honor the new Radiants would be less virtuous and become terrible conquerers like the original men on Roshar were.

He does recognise the results of the Everstorm immediately as voidbringers. He is a Herald. He knows what a Voidbringer is.

3 hours ago, robardin said:

I wonder what "greater power of the oaths" means? The further Ideals? Or something else?

I am beginning to suspect that there is a magic system based on oaths and that the oathpact is not a singular act of Honor's intervention but based on wider principles.

[Eternal Khol]

22 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am beginning to suspect that there is a magic system based on oaths

Surgebinding? XD

 

22 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

the oathpact is not a singular act of Honor's intervention but based on wider principles.

Of course it wasnt a singular act, Honor had to turn the then regular humans into cognitive shadows, create the mechanism thats lets to Heralds travel to and from Braize and the Oath that traps the Voidspren on Braize.

He also presumably created the Honorblades during the creation of the Oathpact, which(to me) seem to be part of the Oathpact(I think the Honorblades are how the Heralds travel to and from Brazie using a Connection like the Oathgates)

the Heralds abandoned their Honorblades when they “abandoned” the Oathpact which i dont think is a coincidence.

 

what do you mean “wider principles”?

Edited June 5, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[RShara]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The interaction of Odium and Dalinar strongly suggested that Dalinar could rescind the oathpact.

The Oathpact was between Honor and the Heralds and binds the Fused to Braize. You're thinking of how the powers of Honor and Cultivation bind Odium to the Rosharan system.

[+Oltux72]

41 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Surgebinding? XD

No, that is a bias particular to the era of the Stormlight Archive. We know at least five methods to use Surges

1. Honorblades
2. Being a Fused
3. Yelig-Nar
4. Fabrials (counting Soulcasters among them - probably not correct)
5. a Nahel bond with a spren

And even in the case of the Nahel bond, the oaths are secondary. Ishar imposed them on existing Surgebinders.

41 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

what do you mean “wider principles”?

That you can use oaths to create arcane effects under certain circumstances. The ability is not limited to Honor. Gavilar was researching it when he was murdered.

20 minutes ago, RShara said:

The Oathpact was between Honor and the Heralds and binds the Fused to Braize. You're thinking of how the powers of Honor and Cultivation bind Odium to the Rosharan system.

Oathbringer:

Quote

"So do it. Leave us alone. Go away."

Odium turned to him so sharply that Dalinar jumped. "Is that," Odium said quietly, "an offer to release me from my bonds, coming from the man holding the remnants of Honor's name and power.

That makes little sense, if Dalinar could not set Odium free. And it would take Intent to free him, as we also learn. It implies that there is an arcane system requiring Intent at work.

[RShara]

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Oathbringer:

That makes little sense, if Dalinar could not set Odium free. And it would take Intent to free him, as we also learn. It implies that there is an arcane system requiring Intent at work.

Yes, but that's not the Oathpact. That's the power of Honor and Cultivation binding Odium, is my point.

[Eternal Khol]

38 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That you can use oaths to create arcane effects under certain circumstances

like bending the Oathpact to travel somewhere other than Braize?