Blackmail Theory: Seducing Sadeas

[ConfusedCow]

        Still wishing we had some more Brandon Sanderson books to read instead of watching the horrific collapse of our country.   Though this week I'd settle for a statement about racism and injustice.  I agree with NattyBo's post about silence.  I do think, however, that Brandon communicates best in his books.  This week I reread the way of kings chapter Justice, one of my favorite moments.  Navani walks up to Sadeas paints the ketek Justice on the ground, says a prayer, and lights it on fire.  Maybe don't actually do that.  However, you choose to seek justice, be safe, be strong, and stand united.  Also, check out my other Blackmail Theories, Hoid's Holiday and Lift's Gifts.  

Blackmail Theory: Seducing Sadeas

       Sadeas is treacherous, conniving, power hungry and ruthless in the best way.  He is also surprisingly loyal.  He is loyal to Gavilar all through the unification war.  He is loyal to Elhokar for six years on the shattered plains.  Sadeas and Gavilar took a lot of risks, fought duels, waged war.  Gavilar got shards, lands, a kingdom and a crown.  What did Sadeas get?  Does anyone think his goal was to have a good king for Alethkar?   My theory is that he wasn't loyal to Gavilar. He was loyal to Navani.  By loyal of course I mean getting all up in her sleave.  Turn on your Shaggy sound tracks now. 

       "Dalinar Kholin is mine, and I am his. (Navani) YOU HAVE BROKEN OATHS BEFORE. (Stormfather) (OB 58)"  I've got nothing but love for Navani, but you've got to admit she has a thing for powerful men and she goes for what she wants.  She 'practically seduces' Dalinar.  She doesn't care about tradition and she never loved Gavilar.  She and Gavilar were very different people.  Gavilar didn't share his secrets or his plans involving the Sons of Honor with her.  As Gavilar lay dying he didn't spare a thought or a word for her.  Gavilar loved his kingdom.  He saw Navani as part of that, a jewel on his crown.  Sadeas by contrast wasn't always a red-faced, aging, lump of evil dough.  The red-faced thing is likely the result of excess drinking.  When he was younger, Sadeas was powerful, a skilled swordsman, well dressed, intelligent, and more interested in Navani than Gavilar was.  We get some glimpses into Sadeas's mind.  We see that he doesn't really love Ialai.  Their marriage is based on a shared cunning ruthlessness and a love of power.  Sadeas and Ialai literally scratch each others backs.  Sadeas covets things, gemhearts, shards, ryshadium, kingdoms.  He doubtless coveted Gavilar's finest jewel.  Navani and Sadeas must have been around each other on campaigns and at court.  All of this is to say, there was plenty of opportunity and motive here.  

       Let us imagine that Sadeas and Navani did have an affair.  Navani keeps stringing Sadeas along, the occassional late night tryst.   Sadeas hating Gavilar but staying by his side so he can be close to Navani.  Then Gavilar dies and Sadeas comes to the shattered plains.  Sadeas can at last marry her and have what he wants, but she's in mourning and he's married so he waits some more.   Perhaps she leads him on a bit to keep him loyal to her son.  Then Navani chooses to follow her heart and be with the man who has always loved her, always seen her for herself.  She choses Dalinar, a stupid, brutish, Kholin, again.  It almost makes you feel bad for Sadeas.  It explains his mysterious loyalty and his terrible hatred for Dalinar.  

        Alright, I know this theory has run on a bit.  It does sound a bit more G.R.R.M. than Sanderson, but Sanderson does try to push himself into new things. I have some more evidence if people need convincing, but I'll just add one more speculation.  What if Jasnah is Sadeas's daughter? Both are well dressed, black haired, cunning, ruthless, and power hungry.   What if Jasnah's childhood lunacy is her knowing the truth about her parents?  Did Adolin kill Jasnah's father?  Does Jasnah have a blood right to the throne?  How upset is Dalinar going to be when Ialai tells everyone?  The most important words a man can say, "I will remember that my wife is always right." 

       

[Solant]

It's a good theory, but I never got the impression that ialai and sadeas didn't love each other. I actually had the opposite impression... that they were very close and very much on the same page with their ambitions.

[+robardin]

Nah, we do actually have what amounts to Navani POVs and it seems clear even in TWoK that she was "interested" in Dalinar from way back.

But you do raise an interesting point of detail. The Stormfather specifically calls Navani out with: DO OATHS HOLD MEANING TO YOU? -- YOU HAVE BROKEN OATHS BEFORE. I think the Stormfather uses the term "oath" quite particularly, so he's not just saying something like "and sometimes you blow off meetings or ghost people by spanreed on purpose!"

Assuming he his not referring to a broken Nahel bond, what IS that referring to? Did she cheat on Gavilar (in violation of wedding vows), but evidently not with Dalinar?

Edited June 5, 2020 by robardin

[Nellac]

I think that Ialai is to conniving for that to happen. She is too smart for it to happen without her noticing. Also, if she'd noticed, Navani would be dead right now

[ConfusedCow]

Responding to Solant's point, I did reread the bits with Ialai in WOR.  You make a good point they are very close, honest with each, intimate in the way the touch each other.  I do think, however, this is the kind of intimacy you get after a long companionship not fiery passion.  Also to state the obvious it is possible to be interested/love more than one person at a time.  The wife always knows about the mistress.  So, yeah Nellac I do think Navani should worry about her old friend.  

[Karger]

5 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

     Let us imagine that Sadeas and Navani did have an affair.

Navani flatly states that she was never unfaithful to Gavilar in WoKs despite having "ample reason."  She could have been lying but at that point why bother?  Gavilar was dead, she had no political power or influence, and she was in the same breath admitting that she did not like him so much.  The conversation was private and with someone she trusted and loved and it is not like she was coy about this kind of thing.  She suggested to Dalinar that they start and affair and she was not embarrassed about it.  Also in Sadeas's PoV he states that he loves his wife.

Also also

Quote

Questioner

Was Sadeas involved with Gavilar's death?

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question. He legitimately thought that Gavilar was a good king and so he legitimately wanted him to live. Sadeas had...his disagreements with Dalinar, he was way more ruthless, and things like this. But at the end of the day he really did want the kingdom to succeed and he did not want to be king.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Karger

[ConfusedCow]

Did Brandon make an hour glass shape in the air with his hand when he said "things like this"?

[Karger]

29 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said:

Did Brandon make an hour glass shape in the air with his hand when he said "things like this"?

I think am the confused one now.

[Solant]

I imagine it would be a bad idea to cheat on your wife if she runs a spy network. 

 

I wonder if the line about Navani and broken oaths is in reference to a secret longing for Dalinar even though she was married. I don't remember what Rosharan wedding vows look like, (and I'm too lazy to look it up) but it could be broken not by action, but instead through desire? Just a thought.

[Naurock]

11 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

Then Gavilar dies and Sadeas comes to the shattered plains. 

One minor nit to pick, Sadeas was already was at the Shattered Plains. He was the fake Gavilar fleeing. Doesn't ruin the theory at all, I really enjoyed reading it! With Brandon, you can never leave these lines to be unturned. I do believe that line has some meaning to be expounded on later.

[Karger]

11 hours ago, Solant said:

I imagine it would be a bad idea to cheat on your wife if she runs a spy network. 

Not to mention an assassination network.

11 hours ago, Naurock said:

One minor nit to pick, Sadeas was already was at the Shattered Plains

He was not.  The treaty signing was at the palace in Kholinar.

[Hessi's Ward]

This is a very interesting theory but the timeline doesn't really match up. In chapter 19 of Oathbringer, Sadeas was already married to Ialai and that chapter is the Dalinar tries to find his knife flashback set 31 years ago. 

[SirNoSell]

On 6/4/2020 at 8:15 PM, robardin said:

Assuming he his not referring to a broken Nahel bond, what IS that referring to? Did she cheat on Gavilar (in violation of wedding vows), but evidently not with Dalinar?

I thought so at first as well but I doubt that Navani went all the way with someone else. Perhaps she broke her oath by NOT loving him during the course of their marriage. Or she entertained someone else's advances without committing to it. 

Navani did tell Dalinar early on in TWoK that she was loyal and then at her wedding she admitted to broken oaths. She would have told Dalinar about it and we the readers would definitely know about it.

[+robardin]

Just now, BrightLordSwageas said:

I thought so at first as well but I doubt that Navani went all the way with someone else. Perhaps she broke her oath by NOT loving him during the course of their marriage. Or she entertained someone else's advances without committing to it. 

Navani did tell Dalinar early on in TWoK that she was loyal and then at her wedding she admitted to broken oaths. She would have told Dalinar about it and we the readers would definitely know about it.

Right, so if she wasn't lying to Dalinar in TWoK about having always been faithful to Gavilar, what marriage-level oaths might she have forsworn in her life?

What she actually said on the topic to Dalinar was: "Gavilar is dead. I was never unfaithful while he lived, though the Stormfather knows I had ample reason." Does the "ample reason" imply that Gavilar was unfaithful to her, or neglectful, or abusive?

Would her having a relationship with another man after Gavilar had died - not one "traditionally" if not textually forbidden by the Vorin Church, as one with Dalinar as her brother-in-law by marriage would be - be considered "unfaithful?" Is a Vorin widow expected to maintain that commitment until/unless remarried?

Nah, I don't feel like Brandon is building some hidden "in between Gavilar and Dalinar" romantic relationship for Navani over the first three books here. It's not particularly his style, and there is literally nothing else suggesting it aside from this little hint.

Notice that the Stormfather used the plural in his question and accusation. DO OATHS HOLD MEANING TO YOU? .... YOU HAVE BROKEN OATHS BEFORE. How many "oaths" has Navani spoken in her life?

Is it at all possible that Navani is a forsworn Radiant, perhaps an unconscious one the way that Shallan was for a while? ... But the Stormfather would probably be much more openly angry about that. He is not shy about saying directly to Kaladin that he had KILLED MY BELOVED ONE when he broke his bond with Syl, even though he didn't know exactly how it happened; I doubt he would hold back in saying something similar to Navani, or to Dalinar about Navani, at a time when the two of them are specifically seeking his blessing.

The Stormfather "seemed content" with her rebuttal, too: "The right oaths [hold meaning to me]... All people have [broken oaths]. We're frail and foolish. This one I will not break. I swear it."

So what does this mean? Maybe he was talking about her blowing off meetings and ghosting people by spanreed!

[18th Shard]

I think it's important to note that the Stormfather has a much more inclusive interpretation of what an Oath is - I could totally see Navani have politically promised something and then break that oath. The Stormfather would probably hate her having lied in any way.

I also feel like if there were a good time for this kind of revelation to come out, it would have been before the end of Oathbringer. It does really hold too much power following Dalinar's arc in Oathbringer - I don't think it would cause a great divide in their marriage. Dalinar barely cared about Adolin's killing of Sadeas except for its political implications. Sanderson doesn't usually throw chaos into relationships just to throw chaos in - I could see it in something like Steve Erikson or Martin's works, but it just doesn't feel like the kind of twist Sanderson would use.

[Karger]

7 hours ago, robardin said:

What she actually said on the topic to Dalinar was: "Gavilar is dead. I was never unfaithful while he lived, though the Stormfather knows I had ample reason." Does the "ample reason" imply that Gavilar was unfaithful to her, or neglectful, or abusive?

We have the RoW prologue which is from her perspective and it definitely implies that he was not a good husband.

7 hours ago, robardin said:

what marriage-level oaths might she have forsworn in her life?

Why do they have to be marriage level?  They could be something else.

Quote

Wetlander

In that same chapter, with the wedding, the Stormfather says, YOU HAVE BROKEN OATHS BEFORE to Navani. Will we ever learn more about that?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

Notice he does not say yes which implies it is not a HUGE deal(or is just trolling us because he is Brandon but I still think the first is more probable).

[agrabes]

On 6/4/2020 at 0:14 PM, ConfusedCow said:

        Still wishing we had some more Brandon Sanderson books to read instead of watching the horrific collapse of our country.   Though this week I'd settle for a statement about racism and injustice.  I agree with NattyBo's post about silence.  I do think, however, that Brandon communicates best in his books.  This week I reread the way of kings chapter Justice, one of my favorite moments.  Navani walks up to Sadeas paints the ketek Justice on the ground, says a prayer, and lights it on fire.  Maybe don't actually do that.  However, you choose to seek justice, be safe, be strong, and stand united.  Also, check out my other Blackmail Theories, Hoid's Holiday and Lift's Gifts.  

Blackmail Theory: Seducing Sadeas

       Sadeas is treacherous, conniving, power hungry and ruthless in the best way.  He is also surprisingly loyal.  He is loyal to Gavilar all through the unification war.  He is loyal to Elhokar for six years on the shattered plains.  Sadeas and Gavilar took a lot of risks, fought duels, waged war.  Gavilar got shards, lands, a kingdom and a crown.  What did Sadeas get?  Does anyone think his goal was to have a good king for Alethkar?   My theory is that he wasn't loyal to Gavilar. He was loyal to Navani.  By loyal of course I mean getting all up in her sleave.  Turn on your Shaggy sound tracks now. 

       "Dalinar Kholin is mine, and I am his. (Navani) YOU HAVE BROKEN OATHS BEFORE. (Stormfather) (OB 58)"  I've got nothing but love for Navani, but you've got to admit she has a thing for powerful men and she goes for what she wants.  She 'practically seduces' Dalinar.  She doesn't care about tradition and she never loved Gavilar.  She and Gavilar were very different people.  Gavilar didn't share his secrets or his plans involving the Sons of Honor with her.  As Gavilar lay dying he didn't spare a thought or a word for her.  Gavilar loved his kingdom.  He saw Navani as part of that, a jewel on his crown.  Sadeas by contrast wasn't always a red-faced, aging, lump of evil dough.  The red-faced thing is likely the result of excess drinking.  When he was younger, Sadeas was powerful, a skilled swordsman, well dressed, intelligent, and more interested in Navani than Gavilar was.  We get some glimpses into Sadeas's mind.  We see that he doesn't really love Ialai.  Their marriage is based on a shared cunning ruthlessness and a love of power.  Sadeas and Ialai literally scratch each others backs.  Sadeas covets things, gemhearts, shards, ryshadium, kingdoms.  He doubtless coveted Gavilar's finest jewel.  Navani and Sadeas must have been around each other on campaigns and at court.  All of this is to say, there was plenty of opportunity and motive here.  

       Let us imagine that Sadeas and Navani did have an affair.  Navani keeps stringing Sadeas along, the occassional late night tryst.   Sadeas hating Gavilar but staying by his side so he can be close to Navani.  Then Gavilar dies and Sadeas comes to the shattered plains.  Sadeas can at last marry her and have what he wants, but she's in mourning and he's married so he waits some more.   Perhaps she leads him on a bit to keep him loyal to her son.  Then Navani chooses to follow her heart and be with the man who has always loved her, always seen her for herself.  She choses Dalinar, a stupid, brutish, Kholin, again.  It almost makes you feel bad for Sadeas.  It explains his mysterious loyalty and his terrible hatred for Dalinar.  

        Alright, I know this theory has run on a bit.  It does sound a bit more G.R.R.M. than Sanderson, but Sanderson does try to push himself into new things. I have some more evidence if people need convincing, but I'll just add one more speculation.  What if Jasnah is Sadeas's daughter? Both are well dressed, black haired, cunning, ruthless, and power hungry.   What if Jasnah's childhood lunacy is her knowing the truth about her parents?  Did Adolin kill Jasnah's father?  Does Jasnah have a blood right to the throne?  How upset is Dalinar going to be when Ialai tells everyone?  The most important words a man can say, "I will remember that my wife is always right." 

       

Love this theory!  Don't think it's true but still love it.  I think a lot of people give Sadeas more hate than he deserves.  Sure, he's scheming and conniving, but that's kind of the Alethi way.  We just get to see through the eyes of the few good Alethi characters who've realized that's not right.  Sadeas thinks he is doing what is right for the kingdom and he always was loyal.  He just thinks Dalinar is taking things down the wrong path.  Unfortunately, he was pretty clearly also being manipulated or influenced by Odium.

It would be a cool plot if this were true, but like you said it just doesn't seem like Sanderson's style.  Navani's broken oaths are probably from political machinations that she perpetrated over the years to help Gavilar gain power and/or to help her family and country.

[Karger]

3 hours ago, agrabes said:

Unfortunately, he was pretty clearly also being manipulated or influenced by Odium.

Just the thrill actually.

Quote

Blightsong

Was Sadeas ever affected directly by Odium or an Unmade, not counting the Thrill?

Brandon Sanderson

NOT counting the Thrill, ok uhhhhm. There are affects of other unmade around, and Odium's effect - direct effect? I'm going to say, no, maybe some indirect effects.

Blightsong

What about Roshone?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhhhm, no. The Thrill is the main thing that is getting the Alethi so, I mean, there are others around, but it's not as obvious with that as with other things.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)