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Spinn

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Just now, Spinn said:

Help me with your knowledge!

So I'm working through my ideas for a story and I'm in need of some knowledge. Since I've only read Mistborn (era 1 & parts of 2), I don't have much knowledge about investiture itself. Are there any reasons to which a person's investiture could be partially blocked? (If we're going into spoiler territory, please put it behind a spoiler tag)

My idea for the story is set during the Well of Ascension and you're playing as a noble heir.

Heavy spoilers for The Well of Ascension

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Your father is a lord of the Assembly and you get kidnapped by a Mistborn from the fallen House Elariel (who is known to have one unrevealed Mistborn from the books). This is an attempt to blackmail your father to vote for Cett when King Venture's claim to the throne is challenged. The kidnapping makes you snap, become Mistborn yourself and escape, but your powers are rather weak. You find a mentor who comments on how weak they are (Or few? Maybe you can't access all of them), and you'll have to train and unlock your powers during the course of the game, perhaps finding the treatment to unblock whatever is wrong you. This will, of course, heavily influence where you can go, what areas you can reach, and how your powers work.

One idea is that your mentor is Dockson, who has knowledge about Allomancy, but is not a practitioner himself, and that the game follows the timeline of the Well of Ascension pretty closely, which would mean he dies close to the climax.

 

So, is this feasible?

You'd have to mention your father didn't make you snap young despite most noble doing so. Without hemalurgy you can't not have access to some metals; the hero could have 4+ spikes, it'd necessitates him having a linchpin spike like the inquisitors

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Is there something that could be blocking investiture - or could I invent that particular something without enraging the entire Cosmere community?

Aluminium. It blocks everything.

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However, many more advanced allomantic techniques can only be unlocked through practice and experience, so that could work as an explanation. It can also be noted that your character gets better at pushing themselves and utilizing their metals over time.

@Kingsdaughter613 Yes, I'm thinking that as well. Like if you want to master one metal, you can upgrade it to savant level. Basically, I need a reason for you to not be able to get over the wall or certain houses right off the bat. Otherwise, the level design will be a nightmare xD

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(Things involving Connection to Preservation might.)

Hmm... something that harms your connection to Preservation... Ruin could be at work here.

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Aluminium. It blocks everything.

@mathiau Shards of aluminum inside you can't be good for your allomancy...

Don't think Aluminum has been discovered at this part of the story, buuut that doesn't mean it doesn't exist... Hmm...

EDIT: My bad, apparently the Lord Ruler did know of it, mined it, and kept it secret! Good to know.

Edited by Spinn
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1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

We don’t know of anything that would do that, no. Or at least not that would occur in Mistborn. (Things involving Connection to Preservation might.) 

However, many more advanced allomantic techniques can only be unlocked through practice and experience, so that could work as an explanation. It can also be noted that your character gets better at pushing themselves and utilizing their metals over time.

I'm with this - The simplest route is to have the character start as an unusually weak allomancer, and they just need a lot of training to effectively use any of your abilities. There's a system in the cosmere called Intent that basically means "You can only do some magical effect if you know what it is and you're intentionally trying to do it." So if you just say that your character doesn't know how to use their abilities well, they won't be able to use them in the game.

If you want to do something more mechanical, you could invoke Hemalurgy in some way and have your character's soul (and access to magic) be messed up in a way to fit your needs. There's a lot of specifics of Hemalurgy that we don't know - and a lot of limits we don't know - so you've got a lot of freedom for interpretation. The coppermind article is really good.

Edit: missed that mathiau already mentioned hemalurgy.

Edited by Artemos
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Just now, Spinn said:

@Kingsdaughter613 Yes, I'm thinking that as well. Like if you want to master one metal, you can upgrade it to savant level. Basically, I need a reason for you to not be able to get over the wall or certain houses right off the bat.

Hmm... something that harms your connection to Preservation... Ruin could be at work here.

@mathiau Shards of aluminum inside you can't be good for your allomancy...

I had misunderstood what you meant by blocking investiture, the only thing you might get if you have aluminium shard is aluminum poisoning.

Just now, Artemos said:

I'm with this - The simplest route is to have the character start as an unusually weak allomancer, and they just need a lot of training to effectively use any of your abilities. There's a system in the cosmere called Intent that basically means "You can only do some magical effect if you know what it is and you're intentionally trying to do it." So if you just say that your character doesn't know how to use their abilities well, they won't be able to use them in the game.

If you want to do something more mechanical, you could invoke Hemalurgy in some way and have your character's soul (and access to magic) be messed up in a way to fit your needs. There's a lot of specifics of Hemalurgy that we don't know - and a lot of limits we don't know - so you've got a lot of freedom for interpretation. The coppermind article is really good.

I'd advise against using non-lethal Hemalurgy, it has a lot of mental side effects we don't know. A heavily decayed aluminium spikes could maybe work though

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Thank you both for your input, @mathiau and @Artemos. So a hemalurgic solution would mean other effects as well, and since I don't have much power over a player's mental state (and it seems like a controversial topic) perhaps that road isn't the best.

A damaged Connection with Preservation, as @Kingsdaughter613 suggested, might then be another way to walk. The reason I don't want it to come down to Intent (although I agree that it would be the most simple and easy way to do it) is that it wouldn't add any mystery to the story. If it's a mystery, it'll be a good source of plot, in addition to having effects on the progression system and level design. A damaged Connection could potentially lead to the player being able to venture into the Cognitive Realm at one point or another in the game. At the very least speaking to Preservation seems guaranteed! That could be cool, right?

EDIT: Cognitive Realm, not Spiritual Realm

Edited by Spinn
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11 minutes ago, Spinn said:

A damaged Connection could potentially lead to the player being able to venture into the Spirit Realm at one point or another in the game, and at the very least speaking to Preservation seems guaranteed. That could be cool, right?

Do you mean the Cognitive realm? No one have any idea of what the Spiritual Realm looks like, it has been described as being a 0-dimentional space (aka everything is at the same literal point) and possibly without time.

Also, have you read Secret History yet? If not you should read it before you decide to directly include Preservation or Shadesmar

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15 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Do you mean the Cognitive realm? No one have any idea of what the Spiritual Realm looks like, it has been described as being a 0-dimentional space (aka everything is at the same literal point) and possibly without time.

Also, have you read Secret History yet? If not you should read it before you decide to directly include Preservation or Shadesmar

You're quite right, I meant the Cognitive Realm, and yes, I did read that one.

If I decide to include Shadesmar, I'll definitely use it as a reference.

Edited by Spinn
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5 hours ago, Spinn said:

@Kingsdaughter613 Yes, I'm thinking that as well. Like if you want to master one metal, you can upgrade it to savant level. Basically, I need a reason for you to not be able to get over the wall or certain houses right off the bat. Otherwise, the level design will be a nightmare xD

Hmm... something that harms your connection to Preservation... Ruin could be at work here.

@mathiau Shards of aluminum inside you can't be good for your allomancy...

Don't think Aluminum has been discovered at this part of the story, buuut that doesn't mean it doesn't exist... Hmm...

EDIT: My bad, apparently the Lord Ruler did know of it, mined it, and kept it secret! Good to know.

Just to point out: AC allows you to theoretically go anywhere as soon as you complete the tutorial. Pre-Syndicate games didn’t really have much of a leveling up system - I beat Rogue without once getting more health, for example.

Later games do have a level up system, but you can still go anywhere. The enemies you’ll meet are just much stronger though. This can easily be true in your game: bigger houses have hazekillers and allomantic teams. Kredik Shaw has Inquisitors (pre-Rashek’s death) and so on.

I think, especially considering the similarities between genres, you might want to consider utilizing something closer to the AC type of game. Open world exploring, with a major focus on stealth, both of which suit Mistborn well.

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1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Just to point out: AC allows you to theoretically go anywhere as soon as you complete the tutorial. Pre-Syndicate games didn’t really have much of a leveling up system - I beat Rogue without once getting more health, for example.

Later games do have a level up system, but you can still go anywhere. The enemies you’ll meet are just much stronger though. This can easily be true in your game: bigger houses have hazekillers and allomantic teams. Kredik Shaw has Inquisitors (pre-Rashek’s death) and so on.

I think, especially considering the similarities between genres, you might want to consider utilizing something closer to the AC type of game. Open world exploring, with a major focus on stealth, both of which suit Mistborn well.

I agree they are quite similar in concept, and you are correct on both accounts, they would suit Mistborn well, but partly it comes down to budget. I don't have the necessary coders or the technology to build such a vast world and still make it run smooth. Already now, I'm on the edge of what Unreal is allowing me to do world-wise, and people are experiencing low fps too. I'm guessing this also has to do with the 3D meshes I'm using not being very efficient, but it's all I have to work with, not being a 3D artist myself.

The other part is that a steelpusher has even more unhindered movement than any AC character. If AC devs want you to be unable to go to a place, they simply put a wall there and won't let you climb it - or you memory won't let you go so far - at least in the earlier games. I don't really have any of those luxuries. In Luthadel, we have a wall you can canonically jump onto as a beginner and then just open fields as far as the eye can see on the other side. In the other direction, we have a very large city, at least 20 times larger than the areas I've already made and I'm afraid I will refuse do Luthadel in full, lol. However, I am planning on building the Skaa Market area in approximately correct size if I can, the new Noble Keep level being the recent home of House Erikeller in the northern part of it, at least according to the official roleplaying game's version of the map.

My vision is to have levels built more like Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order, where you unlock areas depending on your abilities, whilst still feeling really cool, letting you appreciate and become familiar with every street, rather than swooshing past 90% of what I struggled to build.

A sandbox open world is way too much for me alone, I'm afraid. Better to have a smaller part made really well.

I do appreciate the comment, though!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just wrote a whole thing while I was downloading the new version on how Allomancy has very little Intent involved in it, and that having fragments of a broken Aluminium spike would probably be the best way to hold your character back. I'm a little busy with school stuff, but I'll just say it looks really cool so far, prepare to bombarded with an edit with 500 different ideas once I play, and please, please, please make a mistless version my computer hates me so much. :(

Edit: I'm getting an error that says VCRUNTIME140_1.dll wasn't found, any clue what that is? I'm redownloading it now.

Edited by Hoidolasium
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1 minute ago, Hoidolasium said:

Just wrote a whole thing while I was downloading the new version on how Allomancy has very little Intent involved in it, and that having fragments of a broken Aluminium spike would probably be the best way to hold your character back. I'm a little busy with school stuff, but I'll just say it looks really cool so far, prepare to bombarded with an edit with 500 different ideas once I play, and please, please, please make a mistless version my computer hates me so much.

The starting area is completely Mistless, but if the other levels are still laggy, I believe it's because of all the buildings, not the mist. In the first couple of versions, the mist was a particle effect I created that every second or so created hundreds of puffs of mist. Now, it's one built-in mist effect that Unreal features and should be pretty economic.

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I remembered to pull this up on my desktop and try it out. Built-in graphics on laptop aren't up to snuff. :D

I'm a little confused by the way it dumps me into a room right off the bat with no tutorial on controls. It would be nice if there was at least some kind of keybinding graphic included with the download? It took me several times of running around the room and getting killed by the guard who comes in before I figured I just needed to run away.

I'm also really struggling with launching myself up with a coin. It usually takes me several tries to get it in the first place. You have to pull out the coin, jump, then drop it, and then Push? The tutorial wasn't helping me figure this out, and even after I thought I had it, it seemed like it wasn't working every time. For a type of movement that would surely happen a lot in the game, I kind of wish it were more streamlined? Like hold the button to drop the coin and then hold down the steelpush mouse button and it automatically knows you want to drop the coin and start Pushing. Standing still while doing this sends you straight up while moving in a direction gives some forward movement?

I'm sure I'll have more thoughts if I can ever get on top of the wall tower. :D

Did I see there was controller support planned at some point? That would be nice. :)

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8 hours ago, Jofwu said:

I remembered to pull this up on my desktop and try it out. Built-in graphics on laptop aren't up to snuff. :D

I'm a little confused by the way it dumps me into a room right off the bat with no tutorial on controls. It would be nice if there was at least some kind of keybinding graphic included with the download? It took me several times of running around the room and getting killed by the guard who comes in before I figured I just needed to run away.

I'm also really struggling with launching myself up with a coin. It usually takes me several tries to get it in the first place. You have to pull out the coin, jump, then drop it, and then Push? The tutorial wasn't helping me figure this out, and even after I thought I had it, it seemed like it wasn't working every time. For a type of movement that would surely happen a lot in the game, I kind of wish it were more streamlined? Like hold the button to drop the coin and then hold down the steelpush mouse button and it automatically knows you want to drop the coin and start Pushing. Standing still while doing this sends you straight up while moving in a direction gives some forward movement?

I'm sure I'll have more thoughts if I can ever get on top of the wall tower. :D

Did I see there was controller support planned at some point? That would be nice. :)

A tutorial picture was a nice suggestion! I might make one for the next release. A full in-game tutorial is in the works, but I think it needs NPC interaction to be done properly.

I've received feedback about the coin jump being hard to do before, so I implemented an automatic one: F + Hold F

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Story Outline!

I've had some thoughts, done some research, and I've started to work on an outline. Before I set this one in stone, I want to just run it by you guys and see how you feel about it.

- Spoilers for The Well of Ascension AND The Hero of Ages -

  1. You're a nobleman during The Well of Ascension, of House Hue - a mining House. Your father is on the Assembly.
  2. You're not quite healthy. You've taken meds every day as long as you can remember, and your family's motto is "Heads kept low stay living". They are very careful and humble.
  3. One night, you wake up. A surviving Elariel mistborn easily overpowers and kidnaps you, and your father is blackmailed to vote Elend off the throne.
  4. During your imprisonment, Elariel provokes you into a rage. You find a tiny source of something within... and burnt it.
  5. Pewter-powered, you manage to escape into the streets and you're found by none other than Dockson.
  6. Seeing his absolute disgust for Elariel as a nobleman, you lie to Dockson, telling him you're Skaa. He saw you use powers and agrees to teach you how to use them, having heard and seen it be used plenty of times.
  7. But your powers are weak, which confuses him.
  8. You're sent to find someone spiritual. Eventually, you find one of the Valla, the religion who survived the longest from the Lord Ruler's purge. A very small amount of people still follow their ways in secret.
  9. You discover that your "Bond to the Eternal" (Connection to Preservation) is severely damaged, almost broken. (I'm thinking it's not a surprise that the one religion to survive the longest was connected to Preservation, knowingly or not)
  10. You discover that to heal the Bond, you need to follow the Valla way (and unknowingly, Preservation's way).
  11. You get a lot of missions, saving innocents, foiling Elariel's plans, and can upgrade your powers.
  12. Elariel finds you with Dockson. You fight, but cannot win. You flee, and seek the Valla together with Dockson.
  13. When you arrive at the Valla, they have been slaughtered, and in blood, your name is written. Your lie has been revealed and Dockson abandons you.
  14. You get back to your family and realize you haven't taken your meds since the day before you were kidnapped.
  15. Your family reveals how you snapped as young, and they've fed you Aluminum from their mines throughout your whole life, as meds, to keep your powers away. "Heads kept low stay living" means no Mistborn powers to pick fights with. You deduce this is what's damaged your Bond.
  16. As if all this wasn't enough for one day, the Koloss attack the city.
  17. You find your way to Dockson. Realizing his faults, he sacrifices himself in Keep Venture to let you escape.
  18. As you save people left and right, you heal the last of your Connection and get to speak to a mysterious entity (Preservation).
  19. Climax: You find Elariel. You do an epic battle between Mistborn. You fool them into drinking a vial of Aluminum, and capture them.
  20. Resolution: You save what you can of the Valla religion and pass it on to others.

----

I kind of want to break Elariel's bond permanently. I'm thinking they may have access to Duralumin and uses it regularly during your fights. If you burn Duralumin with Aluminium... That just might do the trick! It's a bit close to Avatar the Last Airbender, but I'm pretty ok with that.

If this actually does become the story of the game, I'm thinking of naming the game "Mistborn: Bondbreaker".

So... Any thoughts?

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14 minutes ago, Spinn said:

Story Outline!

I've had some thoughts, done some research, and I've started to work on an outline. Before I set this one in stone, I want to just run it by you guys and see how you feel about it.

- Spoilers for The Well of Ascension AND The Hero of Ages -

  1. You're a nobleman during The Well of Ascension, of House Hue - a mining House. Your father is on the Assembly.
  2. You're not quite healthy. You've taken meds every day as long as you can remember, and your family's motto is "Heads kept low stay living". They are very careful and humble.
  3. One night, you wake up. A surviving Elariel mistborn easily overpowers and kidnaps you, and your father is blackmailed to vote Elend off the throne.
  4. During your imprisonment, Elariel provokes you into a rage. You find a tiny source of something within... and burnt it.
  5. Pewter-powered, you manage to escape into the streets and you're found by none other than Dockson.
  6. Seeing his absolute disgust for Elariel as a nobleman, you lie to Dockson, telling him you're Skaa. He saw you use powers and agrees to teach you how to use them, having heard and seen it be used plenty of times.
  7. But your powers are weak, which confuses him.
  8. You're sent to find someone spiritual. Eventually, you find one of the Valla, the religion who survived the longest from the Lord Ruler's purge. A very small amount of people still follow their ways in secret.
  9. You discover that your "Bond to the Eternal" (Connection to Preservation) is severely damaged, almost broken. (I'm thinking it's not a surprise that the one religion to survive the longest was connected to Preservation, knowingly or not)
  10. You discover that to heal the Bond, you need to follow the Valla way (and unknowingly, Preservation's way).
  11. You get a lot of missions, saving innocents, foiling Elariel's plans, and can upgrade your powers.
  12. Elariel finds you with Dockson. You fight, but cannot win. You flee, and seek the Valla together with Dockson.
  13. When you arrive at the Valla, they have been slaughtered, and in blood, your name is written. Your lie has been revealed and Dockson abandons you.
  14. You get back to your family and realize you haven't taken your meds since the day before you were kidnapped.
  15. Your family reveals how you snapped as young, and they've fed you Aluminum from their mines throughout your whole life, as meds, to keep your powers away. "Heads kept low stay living" means no Mistborn powers to pick fights with. You deduce this is what's damaged your Bond.
  16. As if all this wasn't enough for one day, the Koloss attack the city.
  17. You find your way to Dockson. Realizing his faults, he sacrifices himself in Keep Venture to let you escape.
  18. As you save people left and right, you heal the last of your Connection and get to speak to a mysterious entity (Preservation).
  19. Climax: You find Elariel. You do an epic battle between Mistborn. You fool them into drinking a vial of Aluminum, and capture them.
  20. Resolution: You save what you can of the Valla religion and pass it on to others.

----

I kind of want to break Elariel's bond permanently. I'm thinking they may have access to Duralumin and uses it regularly during your fights. If you burn Duralumin with Aluminium... That just might do the trick! It's a bit close to Avatar the Last Airbender, but I'm pretty ok with that.

If this actually does become the story of the game, I'm thinking of naming the game "Mistborn: Bondbreaker".

So... Any thoughts?

Interesting idea, but Aluminum would purify them of foreign Investiture, not damage the Connection to Preservation. You could probably use an Aluminum spike to wipe Elariel’s powers though. Maybe your family had you spiked with one when you were young? That would actually work...

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  • 1 month later...
On 1/25/2021 at 6:14 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Interesting idea, but Aluminum would purify them of foreign Investiture, not damage the Connection to Preservation. You could probably use an Aluminum spike to wipe Elariel’s powers though. Maybe your family had you spiked with one when you were young? That would actually work...

you can indeed use an aluminum spike to blank all abilities. I think you would have to hemilergicly charge it, but the given hemalergic ability for aluminum is "removes all powers"

if you want to stick with the connection mechanic (this makes more sense to me) you need to use duralumin. I don't know how you would get that connection back. Perhaps you meet preservation when you figure all this out and he offers a way to 'earn' back your connection to him, or perhaps you find a tiny bead of lurasium that the Elariel's were experimenting with. you would need a reason to eat it... that way "upgrading your powers" would be finding more lurasium, not enough to make you full Mistborn, but enough to alloy with basic metals on increase your abilities in that area.

Edited by hutonahill
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Another way to let the MC get their powers gradually would be Lerasium alloys. (A pewter-lerasium alloy makes you a pewter misting for example.) Maybe you strengthen your Connection to Pres that way? In my mind, it's really cool and dramatic to let the player do the "acquiring power"-part themselves as opposed to Pres giving them the power.

Idk how you would get your hands on the Lerasium though... 
It could just be sth like "The mists suddenly condense around you and you feel a bead of metal in your hand".

 

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8 hours ago, hutonahill said:

if you want to stick with the connection mechanic (this makes more sense to me) you need to use duralumin. I don't know how you would get that connection back. Perhaps you meet preservation when you figure all this out and he offers a way to 'earn' back your connection to him

The Connection thing with Duralumin is Feruchemy only though and I don't think it's a good idea to throw unsealed metalminds into the mix.

And stealing the Connection hemalurgically is likely to just kill the Mistborn, which we don't want. (There is a way to do it without killing the spiked person but 1. we don't know how that is done and 2. it's likely to need even more precision that regular Hemalurgy.) 
I like the Idea of Leras showing up (maybe in a kind of Seance induced by the Valla?).

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28 minutes ago, Tekiny said:

It could just be sth like "The mists suddenly condense around you and you feel a bead of metal in your hand".

Which is indeed technically possible

Quote

BlackYeti

Because you've talked about alloying the god metals with other ones-- I was wondering whether you would be able to melt them down as you would with normal metals.

Brandon Sanderson

If you could distill the god metal: you could distill it out of the mist, that's theoretically possible.

Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014)
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6 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Which is indeed technically possible

There would be some handwaving on how you get the alloy and not just some lerasium but I think that can be explained. Maybe it's (technically nonexistant) "unviable Lerasium" and you have to alloy it with a specific metal to make it work. 

Edit: Thought: How about Preservation is at this point too weak to make "pure" Lerasium and it has to latch itself onto a metal in your pouch/vial?

Edited by Tekiny
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6 minutes ago, Tekiny said:

There would be some handwaving on how you get the alloy and not just some lerasium but I think that can be explained. Maybe it's (technically nonexistant) "unviable Lerasium" and you have to alloy it with a specific metal to make it work. 

You could have the bead be very small, I don't think it's directly confirmed but it's almost certain Lerasium alloys give far more power for the same amount of Lerasium

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Just now, Tekiny said:

What would that achieve? Burning a tiny but pure bead still would give you all powers, wouldn't it?

Yes but if the bead is too small (which it'd be if someone from Era1 managed to distil mist) they'd be insanely weak, for example your copperclouds would be pierced by normal brass, your brass would barely hear anything and your push/pulls wouldn't be able to lift much and certainly not to lift you

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  • 6 months later...
55 minutes ago, Shard of Platypus said:

I'm having some issues where left click does not fire a coin after pressing F and holding right click does not pull anything. Do you know what might have caused this? As a side note, the game looks great so far.

Oh, this was a while ago. The only reason I could think of is if you didn't have any metal reserves to burn. If you press Tab, you open your inventory where you can drink the vials you've picked up. Hope that helps!

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