Elsecaller_17.5

Easiest way to join 2 orders.

17 posts in this topic

So this is a thought I've had for quite a while now but in Brandon's most recent live stream he answered a question that pretty much confirms my theory so I polished it up and I'm putting it out.

The question was (paraphrased) "Could a Skybreaker swear to follow a nontraditional oath such as the pirate code?" Brandon answered "Yes, the oaths and spren would allow it though the current crop of skybreakers would not."

In short my theory is that someone who is already Radient could bond a highspren and swear to follow the law of the original orders ideals.

For an example I'll use elsecallers to show what this might look like. (Check this out if your not familiar with Skybreaker ideals. 

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Order_of_Skybreakers.

Second Ideal/Ideal of Justice: I will use reason and logic to guide my decisions. 

Third Ideal/Ideal of Dedication: I will follow the tenets and ideals of the Elsecallers.

Fourth Ideal/Ideal of Crusade: This is a tricky one I'm imagining a "crusade" to go and teach and spread the ideals of the Elsecallers. Particularly to kings and rulers.

Fifth Ideal/Ideal of Law: This is the one we know least about but I think it would look like a supercharged version of the 3rd.

So, if this is correct, all a Radient would have to do to get a second set of surges is find a willing highspren. They wouldn't need to commit to anything more than they already do except for the Ideal of Crusade.

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Interesting idea, but the basic problem I see here is that (based on what Nale says) Skybreakers seem to seek an external source of guiding principles and

8 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Second Ideal/Ideal of Justice: I will use reason and logic to guide my decisions. 

that's rather internal

11 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Third Ideal/Ideal of Dedication: I will follow the tenets and ideals of the Elsecallers.

Once again, based on the conversations between Syl and Kaladin, the Oaths are based on internal perception, not some external, unchanging truth. Elsecallers might be even harder for Highspren to accept, based on the Machiavellian interpretation of the First Ideal.

Nale, however, can make up his own laws, so maybe there is some possibility here. But then again, Nale is crazy and has reached the Fifth Ideal :)

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This is a pretty cool theory. Might be possible, might not be. Personally I don't think this is something Brandon would do. It just seems outside of his writing style. It all pretty much depends on if someone could have two bonds, which again, I don't feel like that's something he would do. 

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1 hour ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Elsecallers might be even harder for Highspren to accept, based on the Machiavellian interpretation of the First Ideal.

Skybreakers share the Machiavellian interpretation. 

Quote

AndrewHB (paraphrased)

Is Niccolò Machiavelli's political theory--the ends justify the means--incompatible with the Knights Radiant's First Oath?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Although many of the Orders of Knights Radiant would find Machiavelli's theory, that the ends justify the means, incompatible with additional oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. (Brandon said that the Skybreakers are where a Machiavellian could find a home.)

Footnote: A follow up question was asked in the signing line.
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

 

1 hour ago, KandraAllomancer said:

that's rather internal

That's fair, but the point of bringing up the pirate code thing is that it's all a lot looser than we might expect. With the right intent I think it would work. It's actually more specific than the vague terms "law" and "justice" that most skybreakers swear.

As to the third, they follow general patterns. With the right Intent, Radient, and Spren it would be the most reliable way to land two orders.

1 hour ago, Hentient said:

Personally I don't think this is something Brandon would do. It just seems outside of his writing style

I agree, just looking for opinions on whether it would work theoretically. 

1 hour ago, Hentient said:

It all pretty much depends on if someone could have two bonds, which again, I don't feel like that's something he would do. 

Its definitely possible, but yes I dont think it will happen.

Quote

Questioner

Could someone bond with two spren and wield two swords?

Brandon Sanderson

It is theoretically possible, but the spren aren't going to like it.  So you are not going to see it very often.

Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)

(It took be 20 minutes to find that WoB)

Edited by Elsecaller_17.5
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Ideals are not laws though.  It is like comparing the declaration of independence to the US constitution.  One is just a set of principles.  You can't govern or make decisions based on them. 

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2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Ideals are not laws though.  It is like comparing the declaration of independence to the US constitution.  One is just a set of principles.  You can't govern or make decisions based on them. 

But they're ideals that a Radient is required to follow i.e. laws (IMHO). There's a reason the ideals are so commonly called Oaths even though it's not the most accurate term.

All said and done though, I get your point. I'll again default to finding the right Radient, Spren, and Intent combination. 

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Considering this theory is correct, here’s one other thing to think about: say you’re a Edgedancer originally, (theoretically) swear oaths with a highspren, and then discover truths about yourself and manage to swear oaths with a crypticspren as well. Suddenly, you’ve got six of the ten surges (and likely three unhappy spren, but hey! You’re an honorable pseudo-Yelig-nar!).

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This seems theoretically possible, but it also seems like you would have to walk a very fine line. If you were to bond both a highspren and an honorspren your bond with one of them is likely to be broken. (For example, on seeking revenge Kal killed Syl. She also implied that if he had bonded a highspren he wouldn't have killed it.)

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I think the Order of the Lightweavers would be suited for this kind of thing the most. One doesn't have to swear any Oaths past the First Ideal, only Truths which would bypass the possibility of friction between two separate sets of Oaths.

The Cryptics would probably be less unhappy with this then other spren too, they seem pretty laid back. Though other spren are often unsettled by them, so it might be difficult to get one to agree to share.

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9 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Order_of_Skybreakers.

 

Second Ideal/Ideal of Justice: I will use reason and logic to guide my decisions. 

Third Ideal/Ideal of Dedication: I will follow the tenets and ideals of the Elsecallers.

But those are methods, not ideals. Reason and logic are often mixed up with customs and hidden assumptions. I am afraid this is going into philosophy.

Generally speaking, for example, there is nothing illogical about selling people who cannot pay their debts into slavery. So far so good, a Skybreaker sworn to the law of the Roman Republic would uphold such laws. So Elsecallers and Skybreakers are more compatible than Edgedancers and Elsecallers. But the idea of law itself is not fully based on logic. Elsecallers look quite utilitarian, at least Jasnah does. Statistics on n = 1 is dangerous, but we know that utilitarianism is compatible with the Elsecallers.

Unfortunately it does not fit with the Skybreakers. To a Skybreaker, rules are rules. If you were leaving a room on the sinking Titanic and a sign said "the last person leaving this room must switch off the electric lights", a Skybreaker having accepted the rules by making a contract to buy a ticket would have to switch it off. Jasnah wouldn't hit the switch, for it serves no purpose.

The problem with Cryptics is that you would have to discover the internal inconsistencies in your order, like rules making no sense in some circumstances. Likewise if you were an Edgedancer and a Lightweaver you would have to admit that some of the downtrodden are just lazy and stupid losers who deserve the lot they have gotten. I suppose if you really want to look for the best combination under the orders we know something about, it would be Elsecallers and Bondsmiths. Somebody like Taravangian actually.

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You are all missing the most obvious possibility. Go insane/have split personality disorder. Then have each of you personalities bond a spern!

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1 hour ago, Shard of Reading said:

You are all missing the most obvious possibility. Go insane/have split personality disorder. Then have each of you personalities bond a spern!

Until we see Shallan pull this off or we have a WoB confirming it, I'm hesitant to think that sort of thing would work.

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The thing is she kept her personalities bonded to pattern. If she made one that was not bonded to pattern she could possibly be able to bond another spern.

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But could that personality still Lightweave? Or would that ability disappear because she would be a different person. If her powers disappeared then so would the person she created... making a paradox of Lightweavers 

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Ok I've got some major changes to the theory with my new update. Elsecallers with their more personalized oaths probably couldn't line up in the same way the other orders could (same problem with lightweavers).

However I still think their is a ton of synergy between the 2 orders #elsebreakers. The ideals might look something like this. (Note that the elsecaller oaths are what I would swear sounds like others may be completely different. )

1st (both orders): Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. 

2nd (elsecallers): I will continually seek self improvement. 

3rd (elsecallers): I will gain new knowledge and skills and apply them throughout my life.

4th (elsecaller): I will use my knowledge and skills to benefit and help those around me.

5th (elsecaller) AND 2nd (skybreaker): I will seek out a code of justice to maximize the good I do in this world.

3rd (skybreaker): I will follow (enter chosen code here).

4th (skybreaker): I will solve (enter specific problem).

5th (skybreaker): I acknowledge that (chose code) isn't perfect and needs to be adapted to the situation I am in.

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I think Willshapers could easily take on Lightweaver oaths. I'm pretty sure we won't see much of double bonding tho. I'm fairly positive Kal can say first 3 Edgedancer oaths but Syl won't let him. 

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Just now, Watchcry said:

I think Willshapers could easily take on Lightweaver oaths. I'm pretty sure we won't see much of double bonding tho. I'm fairly positive Kal can say first 3 Edgedancer oaths but Syl won't let him. 

Correction; Syl will NOT be sharing HER Radiant with another storming Spren. :P

I mean we literally saw her shooing away lesser spren from Kal in... TWoK? So she's definitely not the kind of spren to really share, it seems.

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