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Robinski

Craft Nook

75 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, hawkedup said:

Can you tell when writing if you're in a scene or not? 

In the drafting process, I can usually tell when a scene ends, but I'm not always entirely aware of where it starts. A lot of times when I shape scenes in revision, I trim a lot from the begining and some from the middle. There is usually a point in the middle where I realize I'm building up to something, and it crystalizes at the end once something happens. Then I can go back, find the where real starting point, and make sure the rest builds up correctly from there.

 

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5 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

In the drafting process, I can usually tell when a scene ends, but I'm not always entirely aware of where it starts.

There's the good ol' adage, "In late, out early" but I tend to have to go revise to make that fit. I'm great at writing 1,000 words of nonsense just to get into a scene. Of course, that nonsense is cut later. 

Sometimes, when I'm having a hard time with a scene, I'll write the bits of dialogue that I know I want to happen, like a screenplay. Then I build around that. I find that helps me with character voices too. 

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13 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

Speaking of years, my two-year anniversary with the group just passed by. I joined May 22 2018/

Happy anniversary! :) 

13 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

There is little consistency in how much of language mechanics is taught from one school system to another. The same goes for reading. Even with common core, students come out of different high schools, a town or two apart, with completely different skill levels.

This is my impression, just from employing people at my company (in the past, no longer!! Woo, hoo!), but also dealing with professionals for 30 years.

13 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

A lot of it has to do with demographics and economics in the district. Systematic racism is prevalent in the school districts I see students come from. Even within the same school, sometimes. In the early 2000s, I felt like my high school was literally segregated with most of the white students in honors and college prep classes and the Latinx students in lower classes.

:(

20 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

I could go down a rabbit hole of how digital texts affects literacy (I a few years ago I did some research about this and have forgotten most of it already) but that is not really what this thread is about.

Ooh, that sounds interesting. I do sometimes continuing typing when I know I've spelled a word wrongly, relying on autocorrect to catch it. I might even 'have a go' at a word im not sure of just to try and get close enough for Word to help me out :rolleyes:. All very chucklesome when I know ho to spell these words, but I can imagine the problems of kids not knowing, and not bothering to find out, and then of course getting the wrong word (there vs. their is the first one that springs to mind).

20 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

She really goes above and beyond what some other teachers do, and if she didn't still live with her parents, I doubt she'd be able to afford it all. She's in her mid twenties, so she has a lot of energy and enthusiasm, but I always find myself wondering how long before the system burns her out.

Bittersweet. Yes, it's hard to imagine someone being able to keep that level of enthusiasm up for say 10 years without paying a price in the face of institutional indifference (or incapacity due to lack of funding)

20 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:
On 04/06/2020 at 6:41 PM, Robinski said:

I find it really hard to sit a write for an hour without looking up. I can do it, but it takes effort

Same. When I really get immersed in a story, then I can manage to not look at social media for a while, but otherwise, it definitely sucks up a lot of my time.

Yup. I mean, I can justify it to myself because I'm connecting with writers, agents, etc. (on Tw-tt-r mostly), but it still sucks up time, and it's not really constructive, because 75% of the Tw--ts seem to be about racism, homophobia or cats (and it's about 65% cats).

20 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:
On 04/06/2020 at 3:38 PM, Snakenaps said:

The core of Name stretches back before high school, even if it is completely and totally unrecognizable now. Those characters and the plot have grown up with me...

These are the best kind of stories though. The first novel I published, Power Surge, was something I dreamt up when I was 18 or 19 and it took me ten years to actually get it into a novel. I actually wrote and shelved an unrelated novel before I was able to finish it.

Cool. Maybe one day, when I've got time, I'll put my 224,000 word first novel through the group. I figure that would take 45 weeks, although you'd be ready to kill me after 7 or 8 :lol:.

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

There's the good ol' adage, "In late, out early"

Ooh, I just that 'at' Mandamon this week, complementing him on an excellent example of 'out early' in Chapter 21, I thought.

10 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

Sometimes, when I'm having a hard time with a scene, I'll write the bits of dialogue that I know I want to happen, like a screenplay. Then I build around that. I find that helps me with character voices too. 

This is a cool idea. I think it works really well. It's a big part of where the first Q---- and M--- novel came from, or certainly Q's character.

Edited by Robinski
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1 hour ago, Robinski said:

This is a cool idea. I think it works really well. It's a big part of where the first Q---- and M--- novel came from, or certainly Q's character.

If you'd ever be willing to share, I'd love to read more of your work. I came in too late for TCC and I haven't read any of your Q&M stories yet. Just one particular novella about a deceased equine ;)

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1 hour ago, Robinski said:

Cool. Maybe one day, when I've got time, I'll put my 224,000 word first novel through the group. I figure that would take 45 weeks, although you'd be ready to kill me after 7 or 8 :lol:.

224,000?!?! That is a long novel!

Though, I admit, the first draft of the first novel ever finished was close to that length. I ended up cutting it down to about 83,000 words then querying it a little before shelving it. I'm actually very happy it didn't get published. I had been writing out of my lane, hadn't done the right research, and at the time, didn't even know sensitivity reads were a thing. 

The project actually had a few things in common with your Q & M regarding the near future setting. It was way up in Maine (not quite Canada, but close). It had a slightly more paranormal vibe with an empath MC, a sentient old growth forest, and a psychic serial killer. Sometimes I want to go back to it, root out all the problematic elements, do my research, and get sensitivity reads. Other times, I think it's best to just leave it alone. 

I think it's the only real adult novel I've really finished.  I'm not sure I'd really call my current WIP adult. 

I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are on returning to shelved projects. Do you ever do it? What kind of changes have you noticed in your writing? Have you ever gone back to something after leaving it alone for years and had good results as you returned to it?

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7 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are on returning to shelved projects. Do you ever do it? What kind of changes have you noticed in your writing? Have you ever gone back to something after leaving it alone for years and had good results as you returned to it?

I was working on a novel for two years (I submitted a bit here a while back) but then just hit a brick wall on it. I shelved it in October or so thinking I'd never come back to it. I started a new, simpler, novel in December with one goal: FINISH. At that point I had never completed anything beyond first draft nanowrimos. The new book has been through 3 full drafts and I am VERY close to completely the final draft. I don't think it's publishable by any means but I learned so much.

Anyway, my plan was to move forward and leave that previous book behind but I went back to it just to see what I could see. I cut it at the point where it started having problems and then completely re-worked an outline for everything that came after that point. It was SOOO much better than what I had planned before. So now I will be finishing that one. :)

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9 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are on returning to shelved projects. Do you ever do it?

In high school, I wrote a terrible short story from high school based off of a dream that's really just a poor rip-off of Cinderella. It's a romance. It is...so bad. So bad. The male lead is a cursed diary. I like to laugh at it once and a while. 

So, no, I don't really have that option yet. I figure I'll keep plowing forward and write myself some trunk novels. 

My current story, however...Ir first appeared in late 2007-early 2008, and was a dead, spiritual background character to these stories my sister and I wrote that involved unicorns blowing up toilets and prank calling Obama. Her first major overhaul came in high school when I started writing her into her own story. Then, I completely and utterly overhauled almost everything a few years ago. 

9 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

What kind of changes have you noticed in your writing?

I actually know what a plot is, and "show, not tell" exists. 

I still can't write romance. At all.

 

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On 06/06/2020 at 6:14 PM, Snakenaps said:

If you'd ever be willing to share, I'd love to read more of your work. I came in too late for TCC and I haven't read any of your Q&M stories yet. Just one particular novella about a deceased equine ;)

Well, I'll certainly bear that in mind. I'm writing two stories presently, a novella that is too long already and only 66.6% finished, I suspect, and a thing that takes the total word count of the two projects up to 25,000 words. So, that will probably be flash fiction at the rate I'm going :lol:, but, that second story is going to be in the Q&M world, featuring Q, so I think I might shop that one through here. It's Q&M 2.5, and will be a short story, I'm sure of it.

After that, I I'd like to go back to Secret Deceased Equine project, since I feel I can get that into shape for shopping around in a decent amount of time. After that, I will either write Q&M Book 3 (TRR), or go back to the novel I have at Draft 2 in the same world as D/H.

Sorry, what was the question? ;) Oh, yes. I would love you to read more of my work too. Your feedback is very helpful, while also being entertaining!

On 06/06/2020 at 6:16 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

224,000?!?! That is a long novel!

Ahem. Yes, it's Sanderson long, but has no magic!! What could go wrong???

On 06/06/2020 at 6:16 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

It was way up in Maine (not quite Canada, but close).

LOL. I know you mean geographically, but I'm trying to decide who would be more insulted by this line, Canadians or Mainenites? (Maineans? Mainese?)

On 06/06/2020 at 6:16 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

paranormal vibe with an empath MC, a sentient old growth forest, and a psychic serial killer

I have to say this sounds really interesting :) 

On 06/06/2020 at 6:16 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are on returning to shelved projects. Do you ever do it?

No. I've tried to do it with a couple of shorts. In fact, wait, I did sort of. I scribbled down an idea and wrote a thousands words in 2002, then came back a wrote a novella out of it in 2009, then edited in 2010. It's the first instalment of a six part supernatural series of which I've also written Part 2 (a novelette) and Part 4 (a novel). They idea is that each part is set in place that I have been and that I like. But this doesn't really count, because I never finished the project initially, so, no, not really :rolleyes: 

On 06/06/2020 at 6:16 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

What kind of changes have you noticed in your writing?

I guess I'm disqualified on account of not having done it, really.

On 06/06/2020 at 6:16 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

Have you ever gone back to something after leaving it alone for years and had good results as you returned to it?

Err, not really.

17 hours ago, hawkedup said:

So now I will be finishing that one.

Excellent :). Hope we get to read it sometime.

15 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

dead, spiritual background character to these stories my sister and I wrote that involved unicorns blowing up toilets and prank calling Obama

:blink:

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Posted (edited)

On 6/6/2020 at 11:37 AM, Robinski said:
On 6/6/2020 at 0:41 AM, Snakenaps said:

Sometimes, when I'm having a hard time with a scene, I'll write the bits of dialogue that I know I want to happen, like a screenplay. Then I build around that. I find that helps me with character voices too. 

This is a cool idea. I think it works really well. It's a big part of where the first Q---- and M--- novel came from, or certainly Q's character.

This is going to sound weird - I use the dialogue technique when I'm working out a character's skillset. For instance, I came up with a character who had the power to manipulate density - except really scientific - so I had to work through all the various applications of doing something as simple as making an object half it's original size by condensing it via magic. The gimmick behind the system is that all the rest of the object's properties change to reflect the new density, so basically I had the character who could do it going on a lecture about it to a secondary character.

Obviously, two pages of dry exposition, calculations, and formulas aren't going to make into the final cut of any story I write (despite the fact that I would very much like to), but I found it helped me to calculate everything via the form of the two characters talking and demonstrating the powers, rather than just doing the dry calculations. It helped me to envision when the character would likely use the powers, and also what parts of the explanation to condense.

I also get to write exchanges of dialogue like this:

Quote

"So ... what's the point?"

“Well, the relationship between hardness and density is roughly linear on the Mohs scale of hardness, assuming the density is linear.”

“So it’s eight times as hard?”

“No. The Mohs scale of hardness is ordinal. It follows no actual pattern therefore, but it does roughly follow exponential growth. Which means that the relationship between hardness and density might be said to correlate exponentially. Which means's it's not merely eight times as hard. It's something akin to, say, 28 or 256 times as hard. If [the object in question] was an edged blade, it’d slice through diamond like a knife through warm cheese. Or, to put it in other words, it’s simply so hard that there’s no normal way of describing it. ”

Which is just fun to write! (I ended up having to nerf this character, as it happens, because the ability to move something up 8 Mohs is ... slightly overpowered, to put it mildly. As an example, said character would be able to turn Nerf objects into basically being made of concrete. Changing sizes while keeping the same mass cough Antman cough would be really problematic.) But I can't put long lectures about the more arcane aspects of violating the laws of physics without glazing the eyes of everyone in a fifty-foot radius. (And if you think this isn't bad, this is actually a condensed version of the actual dialogue I wrote, which is twice as bad. On a strictly ordinal scale, of course.)

Edited by aeromancer
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On 05/06/2020 at 0:59 AM, Snakenaps said:

So, I use a program called Scrivener for writing, which I really like because it is stupidly easy to organize everything with and doesn't get slow when a manuscript gets long, unlike Google Docs. 

Can confirm, Scrivener is the bees knees. I got it recently. I love the research tab in particular; I've linked images, videos, story building theory, all sorts in there. And then a separate section for my world-building.

Previous to this I'd used Word documents. Many, many word documents. And I couldn't remember where everything was. When I was compiling everything on Scrivener concerning my magic system, I had three word documents open, a sheaf of handwritten notes, and screenshots of an illuminating conversation about the system I had with a friend.

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5 hours ago, TheDwarfyOne said:

Can confirm, Scrivener is the bees knees. I got it recently. I love the research tab in particular; I've linked images, videos, story building theory, all sorts in there. And then a separate section for my world-building.

Previous to this I'd used Word documents. Many, many word documents. And I couldn't remember where everything was. When I was compiling everything on Scrivener concerning my magic system, I had three word documents open, a sheaf of handwritten notes, and screenshots of an illuminating conversation about the system I had with a friend.

I admit, I don't use the research tab, because I already have everything on my website, which I created before I got Scrivener. That, and I have my meticulously sorted Bookmarks on Google. 

I used to have everything on Google Docs. I wrote nine chapters on Google Docs before realizing, "Hey, this isn't working." I jammed that poor suck up so bad. I still back everything up on there, though. 

I adore Scrivener, and my favorite thing about it is that it's a one-time purchase. It isn't like Photoshop, I don't have to purchase a monthly subscription. It doesn't require internet, and let's me split everything up as much as I want. I love that stupid corkboard. 

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I know! It revolutionised my writing.

I am perhaps overly fond of the research tab. My world is static with three 'suns' moving around it, so I have used MS paint to (roughly) let me know where the suns will be at any given time. I've uploaded that image to the research folder, along with a picture of Elton John (because his glasses resemble an in-story convention of wearing similar glasses) and various notes. I even have a tab on platypuses in there.

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22 minutes ago, TheDwarfyOne said:

My world is static with three 'suns' moving around it, so I have used MS paint to (roughly) let me know where the suns will be at any given time.

This reminds me of the Donjon Fantasy Calendar Generator (http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/calendar/). I kept screwing myself up timeline wise, and this ended up being every helpful. It's highly customizable, so I enjoy it. 

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Sentence structure with dialogue

“Not my emotions.” Z clarified.

I've read this form in a piece for the second time this week, and that's why I'm putting it up here. And maybe it's just a typo, and I've commented in LBLs on the other instance, but it's kind of why I thought having this 'nook' was a good idea. It's the tag that attracted my attention. 'Z clarified.', in this instance I think, is intended as a tag for the previous piece of dialogue. In that case, the tag is part of the (previous) sentence. A separate clause, I guess (see, I'm not that theoretical. School of life, and all that)? In which case, this would be "Not my emotions," Z clarified.

Am I barking mad? All I would say is, look at whatever book you are reading that has been through any kind of professional process, and "I'm willing to bet that dialogue ends in a comma, followed by the tag," said Robinski.

I see one or two others have tagged it in the thread, so maybe I'm not going mad.

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7 hours ago, Robinski said:

I've read this form in a piece for the second time this week, and that's why I'm putting it up here. And maybe it's just a typo, and I've commented in LBLs on the other instance, but it's kind of why I thought having this 'nook' was a good idea. 

Now you're making me paranoid, especially since I know I did screw some of this up in Draft One. 

Honestly, I think that dialogue punctuation is something that many of us don't consider because, to the reader, it is invisible and flies under the radar. I don't recall ever being taught about it in school. I feel like more emphasis is put on dialogue tags than punctuation in a lot of tips and tricks for writing. 

When grammar gets my goat, I just remember the Alot:

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html?m=1

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Lol. Love the Alot! That's excellent. I did that in school, well, sort of. I went up and asked the teacher how to spell 'alot', naturally figuring it was like about, allow, above, among, etc. Hah! Ended up writing it out ten times (or was it twenty?). If only I'd known more, I could have covered my tracks by saying that I meant 'allot', but I was 7 or 8 at the time.

2 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

I think that dialogue punctuation is something that many of us don't consider because, to the reader, it is invisible and flies under the radar.

Hmm, the tag might fly under the radar when reading, yes--agree, but I don't think the punctuation does, because that is how the reader knows how to pace their reading, and what words to group together.

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7 hours ago, Robinski said:

Lol. Love the Alot! That's excellent. I did that in school, well, sort of. I went up and asked the teacher how to spell 'alot', naturally figuring it was like about, allow, above, among, etc. Hah! Ended up writing it out ten times (or was it twenty?). If only I'd known more, I could have covered my tracks by saying that I meant 'allot', but I was 7 or 8 at the time.

Hmm, the tag might fly under the radar when reading, yes--agree, but I don't think the punctuation does, because that is how the reader knows how to pace their reading, and what words to group together.

Hahahaha, love your "alot" story! For me, I ended up writing "blanket" a million times on one of those yellow legal notepads. 

Maybe it is because beginner writers (or at least me) look up writing tips, we see WALLS of synonyms for "said" to "spice up our writing" but don't see much in the way of teaching one proper punctuation in dialogue. I can only recall one writing tip on dialogue punctuation that came from Tumblr. 

Here's the post, screenshotted off of Pinterest (don't judge). That is NOT my opinion on the bottom because 1) I disagree and 2) I actually believe in capitalization, unlike this person. 

(Mild warning for the most tame of all curse words. Sorry cleaning rating)

Screenshot_20200613-081044_Pinterest.thumb.jpg.03efa0d5173c2d182af5f82afd605702.jpg

I definitely went through the phase in high school were I never used "said". Now I shake my head. "Said" is the ultimate invisible tag. 

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Posted (edited)

Brandon refers to said-bookisms in lectures in a WE, from time to time. 

I think, like everything in life, it's about balance. I probably use too many said-bookisms, and should lean on 'said' and bit harder, but in the end, it doesn't change the comma rule. I like the image posted, and completely agree with it. Say, where's the...oh, there it is. Meh, you haven't met M-o-t-h, have you? :lol: 

However, as to "as a writer, I should be able to put my punctuation wherever..." I can't accept that. There are limits, beyond which the nature of the work is changed in ways that--I think--the author doesn't want or intend.

I come back to the linchpin of my evidence on this point, which is this; if anyone can find a single example of a sentence in a work published by any reputable author or publishing house in which there is a sentence in the form 'Said John.' I will eat my hat.

Edited by Robinski
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On 6/13/2020 at 10:39 AM, Robinski said:

I think, like everything in life, it's about balance. I probably use too many said-bookisms, and should lean on 'said' and bit harder, but in the end, it doesn't change the comma rule. I like the image posted, and completely agree with it. Say, where's the...oh, there it is. Meh, you haven't met M-o-t-h, have you? :lol: 

Everything in moderation, including moderation. 

And I have not met M-o-t-h yet. You are still keeping secrets from me, mister. 

On 6/13/2020 at 10:39 AM, Robinski said:

However, as to "as a writer, I should be able to put my punctuation wherever..." I can't accept that. There are limits, beyond which the nature of the work is changed in ways that--I think--the author doesn't want or intend.

In order to break the rules, first you must know them. 

I think the only time I am okay with someone breaking grammar rules is when they do it intentionally and masterfully in poetry. Emphasis on masterfully. 

Of course, the only example I can think of right now is  The Tale of Custard the Dragonwhich not only manages to rhyme "pirate" and "gyrate" but also "Belinda" and "window". I would not necessarily call this masterful, but I definitely would call it smile inducing. 

 

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On 15/06/2020 at 1:39 AM, Snakenaps said:

And I have not met M-o-t-h yet. You are still keeping secrets from me, mister. 

Well, I might have a new short in a couple of weeks that might have M-th in it, and it might be up here for comments, maybe.

On 15/06/2020 at 1:39 AM, Snakenaps said:

"Belinda" and "window"

I love this!

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New discussion topic: use of character name in narrative (taking cognisance of the fact that everything, but everything is balance).

I think it sounds really clunky when the POV character's name occurs too often in the narrative. What is too often? That's down to judgement, of course, but surely, the fewer times the MC's name is used, the more immersive the POV is for the reader, because it feels more like they are there, and they are not always being reminded that they are borrowing these emotions from someone else.

Example 1: Martin walked down the empty street. There was someone following him, the tap, tap of other footsteps. Martin darted into the first alley he came to. Back pressed to the hard brick, Martin's breath came quick and sharp. Had they seen his dodge? Martin edged closer to the corner. The steps had stopped, but no started again. Tap, tap, tap. Martin reached into his trench coat for the hard reassurance of his Webley. Come on, Martin, hold it together, man. Martin stepped out as a tall, slender shadow appeared, shoving the Webley's barrel hard into their ribs.

Example 2: Martin walked down the empty street. There was someone following him, the tap, tap of other footsteps. He darted into the first alley he came to. Back pressed to the hard brick, His breath came quick and sharp. Had they seen his dodge? He edged closer to the corner. The steps had stopped, but no started again. Tap, tap, tap. He reached into his trench coat for the hard reassurance of his Webley. Come on, Martin, hold it together, man. He stepped out as a tall, slender shadow appeared, shoving the Webley's barrel hard into their ribs.

Seven occurrences versus two, but even those two might still equate to six on a page, which I reckon is too many, too intrusive.

There are of course times when names are essential, such as when there are two make characters in the scene and it's necessary to distinguish when one or other stops talking, does something, etc. But when there are multiple characters, but of different genders, then general pronouns can be all that's needed to distinguish the speaker.

I read a fair number of pieces on here which I think overuse names in narrative, and I think it's clunky, and often unnecessary. I think prose sounds more involving, smoother, and possibly even more professional when use of names is pared back to only what is strictly necessary. I'm interested in what others think, and how this pans out in what you're reading (which is something I have never consciously totted up, if I'm honest).

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4 hours ago, Robinski said:

Well, I might have a new short in a couple of weeks that might have M-th in it, and it might be up here for comments, maybe.

I would like this!

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9 hours ago, Robinski said:

I read a fair number of pieces on here which I think overuse names in narrative, and I think it's clunky, and often unnecessary. I think prose sounds more involving, smoother, and possibly even more professional when use of names is pared back to only what is strictly necessary. I'm interested in what others think, and how this pans out in what you're reading (which is something I have never consciously totted up, if I'm honest).

I am guilty of the overusing of names! Very guilty. 

Part of it stems from when I started writing stories in third person from the point of view of characters who used they/them pronouns, and I was terrified people were going to be horrible confused, so I'd use pronouns as little as possible...and then seeped into all of my third person writing.

It's much less of an issue when I write in first person.  

 

On 6/14/2020 at 8:39 PM, Snakenaps said:

And I have not met M-o-t-h yet. You are still keeping secrets from me, mister. 

On 6/13/2020 at 1:39 PM, Robinski said:

M-o-t-h is one of the best characters @Robinski has created, based off of the ones I've read anyway. There may be even better characters lurking in stories of his that I have not yet read. 

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

Well, I might have a new short in a couple of weeks that might have M-th in it, and it might be up here for comments, maybe.

On 6/14/2020 at 8:39 PM, Snakenaps said:

Yessss!

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1 minute ago, shatteredsmooth said:

I am guilty of the overusing of names! Very guilty. 

Same. 

I have noticed that I start almost every single paragraph with the POV character's name, or some character's name, if it isn't a description paragraph. 

You know how when you look at a word too long it looks wrong? I get that, some I have a habit of overusing names because when I see "she" or "her" too much, it's, like, all I see and I become very self conscious and start using names more. Turns out that's a bad instinct. 

3 minutes ago, shatteredsmooth said:

M-o-t-h is one of the best characters @Robinski has created, based off of the ones I've read anyway. There may be even better characters lurking in stories of his that I have not yet read. 

You all are horrible. It's like you guys keep waving this delicious brownie under my nose but not quiiiiiiiiite letting me have it. I feel like Lancelot in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, shouting, "Foul temptress!" 

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