Newbie here!

[|TJ|]

Heyya folks! I was introduced to Brandon Sanderson while reading the Wheel of Time series though it wasn't until recently that I dived into his own works. I just finished the majority of cosmere (except a few novellas here and there). I started with Elantris and have just finished reading Oathbringer.

So this post is basically a rant about how Oathbringer ending was unsatisfactory.  I mean, how can one write such powerful and brilliant story arc for Dalinar and just gloss over the whole Shallan/Kaladin/Adolin thing in the same book? On one hand we have a powerful piece on a redeemed man, and the other part is just..rushed?

One need not look any further than the chasm scene when Shallan uses Shardblade to help Kaladin without any qualms or hesitancy, or without resorting to her Radiant persona. Isn't this a true indication that her personalities merge into true Shallan when she's with Kaladin? This is further supported by her scholarly discussions with him (the flying chasmfiend theory, for instance) without having doubts whether scholarly pursuit is indeed Shallan's aim or Radiant's. Therein lies the problem since she merges into true Shallan around him, Kaladin can't see her fragmented parts and hence cannot understand her problem.

So... the ending? Intentionally bad or just rushed through to end the triangle headache?

Anyways, I'm not here to start another Shalladin/Shadolin debate. Storm knows there's a ton of those here. It was just nagging me, and I found this outlet.  I'm just here to say hi. So...hey!

Edited May 27, 2020 by Floga Fero

[Honorless]

Welcome to the Shard!

Honestly, Shallan and Kaladin aren't good for each other. It's better this way.

[Emi]

Hi, @Floga Fero, what's your favorite SA character?

(And I agree with R J)

[|TJ|]

1 hour ago, R J said:

Welcome to the Shard!

Honestly, Shallan and Kaladin aren't good for each other. It's better this way.

Well.. different folks, different strokes.

But I refuse to accept the beautiful chasm scene amounted to nothing in the end, despite Sanderson's best attempts to complete squash all my hopes xD

Edited May 27, 2020 by Floga Fero
typo

[|TJ|]

2 minutes ago, Emi said:

Hi, @Floga Fero, what's your favorite SA character?

(And I agree with R J)

Well, the character I root for the most is Kaladin. Poor fellow, how much more sorrow does he have to go through before he's happy? If anyone deserves a happy ending, it should be him.

In terms of character progression and growth, it's got to be Dalinar. Literal chills when he denied Odium his pain.

Didn't particularly care for Jasnah until that moment of compassion for Renarin, so I'm excited to see more of her, especially her flashbacks. 

I loved Lift's interaction with everyone so far, and I'm eager for more. BS writes a mean redemption arc so I'm excited for more Szeth as well!

[GoWibble]

Welcome to the shard!

1 hour ago, Floga Fero said:

I just finished the majority of cosmere (except a few novellas here and there). I started with Elantris and have just finished reading Oathbringer.

What is your favorite magic system and why?

1 hour ago, Floga Fero said:

One need not look any further than the chasm scene when Shallan uses Shardblade to help Kaladin without any qualms or hesitancy, or without resorting to her Radiant persona. Isn't this a true indication that her personalities merge into true Shallan when she's with Kaladin? This is further supported by her scholarly discussions with him (the flying chasmfiend theory, for instance) without having doubts whether scholarly pursuit is indeed Shallan's aim or Radiant's. Therein lies the problem since she merges into true Shallan around him, Kaladin can't see her fragmented parts and hence cannot understand her problem.

She can't really form into Radiant when Radiant doesn't exist yet... The chasm scene is in WoR (Words of Radiance) and the formation of Radiant is later, when Adolin finds out about it (OB, I think) 

1 hour ago, Floga Fero said:

Shallan/Kaladin/Adolin

So, based on the ordering, and the fact that Shallan is betrothed to Adolin, I'm going to guess that you are at least along with the Shalladin faction and possibly the Kadolin one...

1 hour ago, R J said:

Honestly, Shallan and Kaladin aren't good for each other. It's better this way.

Yeah. Kaladin saying that hiding your brokeness is healthy? That is not great, actually, and it causes all sorts of complications later in life for Shallan. It did (kind of) help with her youth and coping then

I personally think (after reading the series thrice) that the scene was well done and that Shallan wasn't suffering from the magical cousin to Dissociative Identity Disorder yet. She also isn't as bad this early. 

[|TJ|]

18 minutes ago, GoWibble said:

What is your favorite magic system and why?

1 hour ago, Floga Fero said:

Gotta be AonDor from Sel. I loved the concept of Allomancy in Mistborn but the fact that it is hereditary and the fact that Mistborn gets a huge advantage above regular mistings make me dislike it a bit. AonDor is random, which I love, but is also based on persistent and constant practice and study of Aons. I like that a person has to study to learn how to use a power, which is quite unique, rather than just been given a power on a platter.

23 minutes ago, GoWibble said:

She can't really form into Radiant when Radiant doesn't exist yet... The chasm scene is in WoR (Words of Radiance) and the formation of Radiant is later, when Adolin finds out about it (OB, I think) 

1 hour ago, Floga Fero said:

Well, I guess we ARE getting into this. My point still stands despite her not creating the Radiant persona yet. She shows visible discomfort at wielding Patternblade (earlier in WoR) against Tyn. But with Kaladin, she does so without any hesitation. Later, when Adolin wants her to use it, she's forced to create the persona because she didn't want Adolin to see the real her. If she felt that way with Kaladin, then she would've created that persona in the chasms itself. 

 

33 minutes ago, GoWibble said:

Yeah. Kaladin saying that hiding your brokeness is healthy?

Well to be fair, he said he wishes he could do the same, and that whatever she's doing, it's working. He says this from his point to view, wishing he could move on from his pain, though, obviously, she took it in the wrong light. I'm not saying it's her fault, but it's not totally his either.

[GoWibble]

22 hours ago, Floga Fero said:

Well, I guess we ARE getting into this. My point still stands despite her not creating the Radiant persona yet. She shows visible discomfort at wielding Patternblade (earlier in WoR) against Tyn. But with Kaladin, she does so without any hesitation. Later, when Adolin wants her to use it, she's forced to create the persona because she didn't want Adolin to see the real her. If she felt that way with Kaladin, then she would've created that persona in the chasms itself. 

She doesn't really wield the

Spoiler

Patternblade in the Chasms, so she isn't as hesitant to let Kal use the Blade.

She does admire Kaladin, but in OB, she decides that Adolin is right for her:

Quote

 

“I don’t get a choice?”

“You’ve made your choice. I see how you look at him.”

“I’m an artist, Adolin. I appreciate a nice picture when I see one. Doesn’t mean I want to pull it off the hook and go get intimate.”

Kaladin landed on a roof in the distance, still looking the other way. Adolin waved toward him. “Shallan. He can literally fly.”

“Oh? And is that what women are supposed to seek in a mate? Is it in the Polite Lady’s Handbook to Courtship and Family? The Bekenah edition, maybe? ‘Ladies, you can’t possibly marry a man if he can’t fly.’ Never mind if the other option is as handsome as sin, kind to everyone he meets regardless of their station, passionate about his art, and away.

...

Storms, she loved this man.

(OB Chapter 121 with Shallan and Adolin)

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by GoWibble
format: the quote inserted unnecessary spaces

[Karger]

4 hours ago, Floga Fero said:

One need not look any further than the chasm scene when Shallan uses Shardblade to help Kaladin without any qualms or hesitancy, or without resorting to her Radiant persona. Isn't this a true indication that her personalities merge into true Shallan when she's with Kaladin? This is further supported by her scholarly discussions with him (the flying chasmfiend theory, for instance) without having doubts whether scholarly pursuit is indeed Shallan's aim or Radiant's. Therein lies the problem since she merges into true Shallan around him, Kaladin can't see her fragmented parts and hence cannot understand her problem.

Not really representative.  Shallan is not having to work through her truth yet and so is more stable.  Additionally she has come close to using her blade several times as far back as WoKs when in life or death situations.  She almost uses it to save Jasnah and might have if Pattern had not suggested lightweaving as an alternative and she does use it to kill Tyn.  She also discusses chasmfiend scholarship with Adolin while on their date without issue.  As to why nothing happened between the Kaladin and Shallan.  It is because Adolin took the time to actually start a relationship with her and we never get the impression that Kaladin and Shallan have a conversation not on sceen.  So um... Welcome to the shard?

[GoWibble]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

So um... Welcome to the shard?

Yeah. sorry for kind of just coming right out and pushing you into a debate @Floga Fero 

[Mist]

Welcome! Is there a story behind your username?

[AonEne]

11 hours ago, Floga Fero said:

I mean, how can one write such powerful and brilliant story arc for Dalinar and just gloss over the whole Shallan/Kaladin/Adolin thing in the same book? On one hand we have a powerful piece on a redeemed man, and the other part is just..rushed? 

So... the ending? Intentionally bad or just rushed through to end the triangle headache? 

I don’t think it is rushed. Brandon spends some time on it, but it was never the focus of the book or even their characterizations. In the end Kaladin tells Syl that he wasn’t interested in Shallan romantically, just that she made him feel like Tien did. They’re friends. Looking back at the chasm scene, there was nothing particularly romantic about it? It was a good scene, to be sure, but both readings of it are valid. I loved all of OB’s ending; it felt like an end that made sense considering what we’d been given, and most importantly, it made all the characters involved happy. (Except maybe Syl, lol) 

6 hours ago, GoWibble said:

She doesn't really wield the Patternblade in the Chasms, so she isn't as hesitant to let Kal use the Blade. 

In addition to what’s already been brought up, we didn’t have her POV on the matter. She’s very adept at handling her mental state covertly, to the point where people often don’t notice anything is up at all. Kaladin also wasn’t in the best position - literally - to view her body language. For all we know she was gritting her teeth and sobbing inwardly as she handed Pattern to him. 

And welcome to the Shard! Any other SA ships you could squee about? 

[|TJ|]

13 hours ago, GoWibble said:

She doesn't really wield the Patternblade in the Chasms, so she isn't as hesitant to let Kal use the Blade.

I'm not talking about her giving it to Kaladin. I'm talking about her using the blade to cut steps on the wall of the chasm. With respect to the quote from the book, I mean... I inferred it as she's trying to convince a part of herself. She obviously loves flying very much (as seen on the way to Kholinar) and even makes an illusion of Adolin as a windrunner.

12 hours ago, Karger said:

Not really representative.  Shallan is not having to work through her truth yet and so is more stable.  Additionally she has come close to using her blade several times as far back as WoKs when in life or death situations.  She almost uses it to save Jasnah and might have if Pattern had not suggested lightweaving as an alternative and she does use it to kill Tyn.  She also discusses chasmfiend scholarship with Adolin while on their date without issue.  As to why nothing happened between the Kaladin and Shallan.  It is because Adolin took the time to actually start a relationship with her and we never get the impression that Kaladin and Shallan have a conversation not on sceen.  So um... Welcome to the shard?

Again, I'm not saying she didn't use it before. She's terribly disturbed after using it to kill Tyn. In the chasm, she even thanks her blade while making her way up the chasm wall. Now maybe I'm overthinking it and using it to fit my narrative, but c'mon! Let a guy believe xD

13 hours ago, GoWibble said:

Yeah. sorry for kind of just coming right out and pushing you into a debate @Floga Fero 

Couldn't have asked for a better way to get introduced, haha! 

12 hours ago, Mist said:

Welcome! Is there a story behind your username?

There is! I happen to be a huge fan of Leo (from Heroes of Olympus). I made the username for some other forum long back. I means something related to fire translated to Greek (I don't exactly remember it specifically). I've been using the name in other places ever since.

6 hours ago, AonEne said:

And welcome to the Shard! Any other SA ships you could squee about? 

Thanks! I love Sebarial and Palona! They're perfect for each other, and they are hilarious. Palona is this perfect mother hen for Shallan (even more so than Navani). 

I like Navani and Dalinar as well. They are the power couple of  SA. I'm very curious to see her reaction after she reads his Oathbringer. 

Also, any Bridge Four romance. Skar and Lyn. Drehy and Dru. Rock and his family. Every one of them deserve to be happy. 

So does Kaladin. But I fear any future relationship will feel shallow since they won't see him as a person, but rather as a KR. That's why I liked Shalladin so much, since they open themselves to each other as humans. So the fact that they are KR is largely irrelevant to them. This is further supported by Shallan's thoughts about Kaladin. She never thinks he's too powerful, or anything of the sorts. She always focused on his compassionate side.

Anyway, this back and forth seems to serve nothing. It's unlikely and either of the sides will change their opinion about it. Nevertheless, I enjoyed a good discussion. Thanks for the warm welcome!

 

[Karger]

44 minutes ago, Floga Fero said:

Now maybe I'm overthinking it and using it to fit my narrative, but c'mon! Let a guy believe xD

Pattern would say your version of the truth is valid because of your perceptions and I agree that if you want to you can find all sorts of potential for intimacy and relationship in Shallan and Kaladin's interactions.  However my point really does still stand.  Kaladin is not in a place where he can accommodate a partner in his life and neither he nor Shallan put any real time into building an actual relationship like she did with Adolin.

[|TJ|]

28 minutes ago, Karger said:

Pattern would say your version of the truth is valid because of your perceptions and I agree that if you want to you can find all sorts of potential for intimacy and relationship in Shallan and Kaladin's interactions.  However my point really does still stand.  Kaladin is not in a place where he can accommodate a partner in his life and neither he nor Shallan put any real time into building an actual relationship like she did with Adolin.

Totally agree with you. Kaladin seems to step back respect their relationship and not want to hurt Adolin. Shallan wants to uphold the causal betrothal. But that's the thing, I wanted to see more interactions between them. It's not what they had, but they could have been. They had potential.

I'm not particularly mad about the choice she makes, but rather how quickly she does it.

Quote

“Also,” Veil added, “look at those eyes. Simmering with barely bridled emotion.” She walked toward him, grinning.

Then slowed.

Adolin knows me.

This part particularly annoyed me. Kaladin might not know her, but that goes for Adolin too. Look how quickly she makes this decision. One minute she's about to approach Kaladin, and the next she makes this unconvincing statement and chooses Adolin? It seems like she convinces herself that she loves him but really wants an anchor and stability. It's not "Adolin knows me", it's "I know Adolin". By choosing Kaladin at this point, she'd be heading into the unknown, and that's not what she wants right now. But a relationship with Adolin is not the right answer either. She relationship with him is not completely genuine. 

The ketek at the end of Oathbringer literally points this out as - "Defying truth, love". Again, not sure if it's meant to be taken seriously, but it's written by Jasnah, who has astute observation skills. Reach? Maybe.

[Honorless]

@Floga Fero, shipping is serious business  might want to take it to a dedicated thread 

And boy do I have some threads for you!

 

(Seriously though, this is the introduction forum, be careful about spoilers here.

You can add a spoiler box using the eye icon or use [.spoiler] (text)  [./spoiler] (just remove the period to post spoilers))

Edited May 28, 2020 by R J

[|TJ|]

37 minutes ago, R J said:

And boy do I have some threads for you!

Ahh yes, I did find the find thread by myself, but well, it's closed lol. I can understand why.

 

38 minutes ago, R J said:

You can add a spoiler box using the eye icon or use [.spoiler] (text)  [./spoiler] (just remove the period to post spoilers))

Cheers, thanks!

[DalinarTD]

This is a hell of an introduction thread, welcome!

Kaladin needs a regular girl I think, not a Knight's Radiant.

[|TJ|]

9 hours ago, DalinarTD said:

This is a hell of an introduction thread, welcome!

Kaladin needs a regular girl I think, not a Knight's Radiant.

Hello! I tend to think the opposite. If he has a regular girl, he'll feel compelled to protect her and feel like she's his responsibility. 

With a KR, he'll feel they're strong enough to protect themselves (kinda similar in the chasms when he makes no effort to help out Shallan in the beginning)
The non-KR character who fits this role is Vivenna, and I'm not sure what to make of Kaladin and Vivenna.