20200525 - Fall of the Imperium Ch 19 - 4563 words - Sub 30

[Mandamon]

Counting down! Five more chapters and an epilogue left! I actually took words out this week, so each sub is about 4500 words. Thanks to everyone for letting me hog the forum, and especially Sarah B for putting off until next week.

SUB 30
Chapter 19. So, this chapter is kind of weird. I feel like the first two parts could technically be cut, though they set up some ideas for the eventual second arc of the cycle, in books 4 and 5. I really want to have the third section in, but if you all feel the first two sections are extraneous, I could attach it to the end of chapter 16.

Previously:
S/E/I arrive in the other facet with their news of the Elg. The Eff and court are there, E has problems with trust, and E/I learn about their folks. The Eff faints shortly thereafter. E battles the voices inside her as they travel to the Ari, and attacks S. In the Ari enclave, I struggles with his image, we learn of the Ari, and E and I use each other's houses for the first time.
M arrives with the society to the Imp and is attacked by Elg. People die and M finds himself with more and more responsibility as they attempt to figure out what's going on. They learn the Eff is also killed, and M makes clever use of a portal to save his life.
Ri and co arrive on HD's homeworld, gather themselves, then engage the Elg in the Imp. They barely escape, and find out where other refugees have gone.
S/E/I learn more about the Ari and find there's only one hammock in the bedroom. They all attempt to pass through the wall, but are stopped by the Elg. S devises a new plan and they try again, with disastrous results.
M leads his posse on a hunt, without success, and meets up with R and her posse. Many connections are made.
E lives as an Elg for a few days and learns how they work. She also wins over the voices inside. I, meanwhile, dons the diadem and learns the history of the Eff.
E/I appear in front of the rest of the cast and fill them in on everything. O gets some long overdue recognition and the whole crew starts planning to fight back.
Back with S, he learns about the HoT and what comes next. Then it's off to Re to see how he's working with/against the Ari.

[Snakenaps]

I'm first for once! Whooo!

Thoughts as I go:

Pg 1, "the earth walls bare of decorations" I am way too materialistic for that.

Pg 1, "leaned against another walls"

Pg 2, "the wheel of life and death." I find this really interesting because the belief system hasn't been explored a whole lot, beyond the Coalition. I would assume every homeworld has at least one main religious/spiritual belief of life and death, and our purpose in general, be it a crazy pantheon to atheism. This makes me want to know more. Does this wheel of life and death involve reincarnation/rebirth like in Buddhism? What does religion look like for a species that talks through its hands?

Pg 3, "they went to plant themselves" What about the religions of species B? What might that look like? Oh man, now my mind is going... How do they repopulate? Does the birds and the bees have a much more literal meaning if pollination is involved??? 

Pg 4, "That was an understatement" Took the words right out of my mouth.

Pg 4, "Were you the one to capture the Acc" This is ringing a bell but I can't place it...

Pg 4, "The Ari in prison" Ah, yes, thank you for the reminder. I probably would have remembered if I was reading this book all at one time, instead of two chapters a week.

Pg 5, "I captured the Acc" Did I know this? I'm sure I knew this. 

Pg 10, "It was a place for the unusual to delight in their remarkable abilities." This brings me joy.

Pg 11, "He gaped like a fish for quite a few more seconds than respectable for a man of his age." Hahahaha, poor man.

Pg 11, "Did they bring through the wrong thing?" Hmmm...with S, does that mean that they could bring in a three house master? That makes me worry about deus ex machina...a three house master that can just fix everything... 

Pg 13, "from their pared gears" I know nothing about gears, but do you mean paired?

Pg 13, "You have a good eye"

Pg 14, " the [Crystal] to be selecting us in some way" I guess that the Crystal is something of a deity in this world. Not necessarily from a worship POV, but from an omnipresent power in the Facets. 

Pg 15, "'you call the House of M.' M asked." Two missing periods.

Pg 17, "keeping him from creating an interplanetary incident." Hahahaha, I love O. He's my favorite, I think. Hard to pick, with so many lovable characters.

Pg 18, "A.A.W." Irrelevant, but does AAW stand for After Ari War?

Pg 18, "now that you are a member" 

Pg 20, "He also tried to keep his ears from twitching." How much mobility does his ears have naturally? I'm curious to find out how much emotion those ears can show, much like O's crest.

Pg 22, "it may have been possible." Hmmm, how does Ari reproduction work?

Pg 23, "how our species propagates" Well, glad to know I'm not the only one in the dark.

Pg 23, "do we want children?” At first I was like, it is way too early in the relationship to start thinking about children. It's been only three months. Then I realized, hey, I'm single and I think often, "Do I want kids?" so conclusion is, it is not only reasonable for them to think about this, but a good idea.

Pg 24, " it was connected with our reproduction." Maybe it is like mitosis, like with cells??? Hmmm....

It gives me hope that I and E are talking about the future, since it would be so easy not to believe in one with the Elg and the Diss. On the other hand, I am worried about them choosing to make their own decision in regards to recruitment. I hope they make a good choice...

[Sarah B]

@Snakenaps already caught the typo I noticed, everything else looks great!

The line mid way, "Did they bring through the wrong thing?" Very intriguing. It feels like this may mean S which would make it a fun reveal... or maybe just new to me as a first timer? Either way, I liked it.

Thanks for sharing

 

[Snakenaps]

@Sarah B If you hop into Chapter 20, you're going to notice a lot of randomly hyphened words. I'm making a list of them, so don't feel like you have to   I'm nearly done with the chapter. I'm glad you caught the same typo as me. Sharp eyes are good to have. 

[Sarah B]

5 minutes ago, Snakenaps said:

@Sarah B If you hop into Chapter 20, you're going to notice a lot of randomly hyphened words. I'm making a list of them, so don't feel like you have to   I'm nearly done with the chapter. I'm glad you caught the same typo as me. Sharp eyes are good to have. 

Whoops.... I just commented a list of the hyphenated words for chapter 20. Great minds think alike I guess :-)

Maybe you caught some I missed

[Snakenaps]

I saw that! You posted just a minute after I did! Great timing

I caught myself doing "Same" in ASL, a habit I picked up from teaching. Except it is a little weird when you do it with yourself and a computer. 

In case you want to learn how to say "same": https://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/pages-signs/s/same.htm 

[Mandamon]

28 minutes ago, Snakenaps said:

@Sarah B If you hop into Chapter 20, you're going to notice a lot of randomly hyphened words. I'm making a list of them, so don't feel like you have to   I'm nearly done with the chapter. I'm glad you caught the same typo as me. Sharp eyes are good to have. 

 

21 minutes ago, Sarah B said:

Whoops.... I just commented a list of the hyphenated words for chapter 20. Great minds think alike I guess :-)

Maybe you caught some I missed

Ah, shoot. Sorry! Please ignore. They're artifacts of me being stupid when I copied the text over. I'll send out a new version.

[Snakenaps]

5 minutes ago, Mandamon said:

 

Ah, shoot. Sorry! Please ignore. They're artifacts of me being stupid when I copied the text over. I'll send out a new version.

I assumed it was a computer error, not you. I'm glad it was something fixable and not a corrupted file. 

[Mandamon]

Just now, Snakenaps said:

6 minutes ago, Mandamon said:

Ah, shoot. Sorry! Please ignore. They're artifacts of me being stupid when I copied the text over. I'll send out a new version.

I assumed it was a computer error, not you. I'm glad it was something fixable and not a corrupted file. 

I write in the template I use to publish (makes things easier) and it uses auto-hyphenate, so if I copy a chunk of text wrong to a new document, it keeps the hyphens where they were in the main file, which end up making no sense in a standard format word document.

[kais]

Overall

Really liked this chapter, and the Ari information in particular! A few areas confused me, as noted below. Please give me ALL the Ari facts please! Nice work!

As I go

- I like that epigraph

- how did Mand get to be the leader?? WRS?

- pg 6: It was the difference between more strings playing <-- this was a great description!

- pg 9: I am really enjoying these experiments. They are giving me so much information and in a really organic way. It's a great discovery

- pg 15: had read several of his papers, though he tended to leap from subject to subject.  <-- I have serious concerns about their peer review system then

- pg 16: In contrast, the conversation with Ori drags. We know all this information so it isn't as interesting. I want to scan for new stuff

- pg 18: with his E <-- delete 'his'

- pg 20: Their intended? That was awkward. <-- WELL THAT ESCALATED QUICKLY

- pg 23: Ma showed me how to get rid of the excess <-- I don't know what they are talking about here. Like...defecating? 

- pg 23: a sample of material  <-- nudge nudge wink wink

- pg 25: And once there, we’ll make our own decision <-- This doesn't land for me. Have other people been making decisions for them? This conversation wandered a bit, or I didn't follow it well. They were missing S, then talking about procreation, then, going back and making their own decisions. What information were we supposed to get? I loved the procreation talk because it gives us more about them, and missing S is good emotion. The rest I think took away from the impact of the others. 

[TheDwarfyOne]

I have little to work on, having only read this chapter so far. Some thoughts: I liked the characterisation of M. His thoughts and personality were both clear. Dialogue in general was good.

Pg. 1. Earthen walls?

Pg. 3. “Though they looked uncertain at being here.” Maybe say something like “though they shifted under his gaze anyway” instead?

Pg. 6. Sprang, not spring. Although I’m not convinced by this verb. Coalesced around? Formed around?

Pg. 7. ‘The aura of green came alive.’ This feels too wordy to me.

Without the rest, I can't really comment on how it fits within the wider narrative, but I liked it. 

[Mandamon]

Thanks to @Snakenaps, @Sarah B, @kais, and @TheDwarfyOne!

14 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

Pg 2, "the wheel of life and death." I find this really interesting because the belief system hasn't been explored a whole lot, beyond the Coalition. I would assume every homeworld has at least one main religious/spiritual belief of life and death, and our purpose in general, be it a crazy pantheon to atheism. This makes me want to know more. Does this wheel of life and death involve reincarnation/rebirth like in Buddhism? What does religion look like for a species that talks through its hands?

Pg 3, "they went to plant themselves" What about the religions of species B? What might that look like? Oh man, now my mind is going... How do they repopulate? Does the birds and the bees have a much more literal meaning if pollination is involved??? 

I don't state anything directly, but yes, this is similar to Buddhism. The Sath have the Form, O makes a lot of references to the ancestors, the E have sea gods, HD and the L have a god of color and light, and the Ben...not really sure about them yet. There are a lot of different beliefs in this universe!

14 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

Pg 4, "Were you the one to capture the Acc" This is ringing a bell but I can't place it...

Pg 4, "The Ari in prison" Ah, yes, thank you for the reminder. I probably would have remembered if I was reading this book all at one time, instead of two chapters a week.

Pg 5, "I captured the Acc" Did I know this? I'm sure I knew this

This was offscreen in book 1, so it sounds like this is enough reminder to at least trigger a memory.

14 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

Pg 14, " the [Crystal] to be selecting us in some way" I guess that the Crystal is something of a deity in this world. Not necessarily from a worship POV, but from an omnipresent power in the Facets. 

I'm sure there are factions that believe in it as a deity as well. I think most people just accept that it's there and weird. You'll find out some more by the end of the book!

14 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

Pg 18, "A.A.W." Irrelevant, but does AAW stand for After Ari War?

Yep! There are even a few dates that have B.A.W., if you look closely...

12 hours ago, Sarah B said:

The line mid way, "Did they bring through the wrong thing?" Very intriguing. It feels like this may mean S which would make it a fun reveal... or maybe just new to me as a first timer? Either way, I liked it.

This is something from the end of book 2. It's not S, but that is a fun idea!

10 hours ago, kais said:

- how did Mand get to be the leader?? WRS?

Mostly by being the highest authority left. I don't know if I made it "official." May have to add a line in somewhere.

10 hours ago, kais said:

- pg 9: I am really enjoying these experiments. They are giving me so much information and in a really organic way. It's a great discovery

Cool. I was worried this section would be too derivative.

10 hours ago, kais said:

- pg 16: In contrast, the conversation with Ori drags. We know all this information so it isn't as interesting. I want to scan for new stuff

I can see this. I may try to add something more exciting, or just remove it.

10 hours ago, kais said:

- pg 23: Ma showed me how to get rid of the excess <-- I don't know what they are talking about here. Like...defecating?

This is like what E did after she absorbed the other one.

10 hours ago, kais said:

- pg 23: a sample of material  <-- nudge nudge wink wink

yep...

10 hours ago, kais said:

- pg 25: And once there, we’ll make our own decision <-- This doesn't land for me. Have other people been making decisions for them? This conversation wandered a bit, or I didn't follow it well. They were missing S, then talking about procreation, then, going back and making their own decisions. What information were we supposed to get? I loved the procreation talk because it gives us more about them, and missing S is good emotion. The rest I think took away from the impact of the others. 

Aha. That might be what I feel is missing. I'll see if I can make the ending pop more.

3 hours ago, TheDwarfyOne said:

I have little to work on, having only read this chapter so far. Some thoughts: I liked the characterisation of M. His thoughts and personality were both clear. Dialogue in general was good.

Thanks! Good job, coming into the end of the third book in a series! There's probably a whole lot that doesn't make sense...

 

Thanks everyone!

[Robinski]

Properly excited to keep reading!

Pre-crit Comments 

I feel like I've seen a lot of personal stakes for the various characters, and we've seen the El destroy individuals, and attack the walls of the N. What I want to see now, as thing approach the climax, are signs that the Diss is coming on now. I want to see large scale destruction, maybe the horror of big chunks falling from the walls of the N: cataclysmic stuff. I really think that would ratchet the tension up incredibly. I also find myself thinking that the death of a fairly major character about now would put down a marker for the reader that we are approaching the end of the trilogy, and nobody is safe. I feel were are very much in 'things getting worse', also 'now, and' or maybe 'yes, but'.

(page 1)

- The epigraph almost seems a bit prosaic for where we are in the story, but I think it works well, and I'm suspecting it offers a clue to how to defeat the El.

(page 2)

- "made R his second" - Bit confused here. So, he hasn't adopted the position of head of the Council? If he has, I think that needs to be stated explicitly here. R being second doesn't feel like it means that much. Second of what?

- "the wheel of life and death" - I don't recall this being mentioned in any of the books so far. This is very late to introduce some new spiritual concept, however I'm presuming it's not going to play a big part, that it's just a passing reference.

- "Time is short" - But they're waiting on him to start surely? Weird line.

- I think it would be interesting to see some ambivalence from M in his reference to the Ar remaining alive. Suggestion in LBLs (by email).

(page 3)

- "He'd found hints in M's store..." - Yay, Moor!! Love Society of T.H.

- "not that you are Ar" - I'm completely flummoxed by this line. What can he mean? Of course they are Ar!

- Really like M's observations: always the investigator  

(page 4)

- "The A in G prison" - nicely played here. I had no idea what the 'acc' was, but it was neatly explained in the context of the conversation, thankfully, with M's confusion mirroring my own.

(page 5)

- "though he had been nowhere near there" - LOL. Excellent call back to that earlier incident. Pleased to say that I remembered it reasonably well <thumbs up>

(page 6)

- "that may have factored into the AW" - LOL. Seems like a massive understatement. Made me chortle.

(page 10)

- "You would become a formal part..." - This is very cold and impersonal. I'd prefer it if they were invited to become members of the SoTH (Hah! There's a subtitle for this book: Revenge of the SoTH  ).

(page 12)

- So, I'm have way through the chapter and it certainly hasn't developed as my reader brain hoped it would. Then again, reflecting on it now, I totally see the need for this scene at this point. I like how it played out, although it was quite dry in places. I think maybe I jumped the gun in terms of what I was hoping for, and still hope to see things getting worse in the next chapter, or maybe even the one after that. I remain of the view that things need to get worse, that we need to see the imminence of massive facet-wide disaster and destruction.

(page 13)

- "which was belching steam" - Hmm, how is it vented in this tunnel?

- Great to see a scene with Man and Or together on their own. I'm sure there has never been such a scene in 2.75 books, plus related volumes.

- "He had never had the chance for an in-depth discussion..." - Ha!

(page 16)

- "lacks a knowledge of the maj" - I don't understand what he's getting at here.

- I've made a suggestion in the LBLs when Or refers to experimenting with S's two abilities. I couldn't resist, sorry! I just think its rather hilarious, and plays to Or's character  

(page 20)

- "We shall have to test..." - This chapter, for me, lacks a clear arc, and a compelling through line. There is some very interesting stuff going on, but it's really quite episodic, and doesn't add much if anything to the plot, or their very present and urgent predicament. I appreciate it might be very important, but it seems to me that each separate episode / scene of the chapter is about research, testing, gaining new knowledge, experimenting. Also, Man is looking beyond the Dis, and that's fine, but it diminishes the present, and robs the situation of the high tension that's been built up. The next chapter is going to have to be a doozy to rectify this, IMO, if all momentum is not to be lost.

- By the time I get to En and In talking about planning future tests I'm really getting quite frustrated and about ready to start skimming.

- "Their intended? That was awkward." - And inaccurate. Although they've talked along those lines, nobody has proposed to anybody else, so it would be a unilateral decision on their part (if that's possible), and therefore could not be considered to be binding on S.

(page 22)

- "We are likely descended..." - I'm just not interested in this at this point in time. The world is ending! Now, I could see this working as them contemplating their existence near the end, but it doesn't come over as that.

(page 23)

- "And do we want children?" - ARRRRGGGHHHH! I'm really frustrated. First Man has been thinking beyond the Dis, and now these two are doing it, presuming that the world will go on, they will survive and making plans for after the Dis. I really do feel this is destroying the tension that has built up--basically telling us the end of the story, and that life will go on. 'Don't worry, there are going to be weddings and new societies, and experiments. The El will be mopped up and everything will go back to normal. I think this is a serious problem, personally.

(page 24)

- "when the universe is no longer on the edge of destruction" - No!!!!!! I'm fizzing now. Nobody is taking the threat seriously, nobody. This is like a chapter from a different book.

- "Do we even want to ask them?" - THIS. Here are the stakes of this chapter, on the second last page. This is where the tension is, the stress, the massive cost, the risk. Everything that has gone before, IMO, is very interesting, but completely academic detail. This is where the heart, the passion, the fear and the drama is: Man asking In and En to go to the other facet and convince and group of Ar who have renounced violence to take arms against a sea of demon monsters from another dimension, to ask the Ar--who were hounded almost out of existence by the other species of this facet--to fight with those same species, all together against a common enemy. This will be incredibly difficult, and the last remaining Ar would be entitled to tell them to go and raffle themselves (Glasgow expression).

(page 25)

- "perhaps we may track down the assassins and end them" - But that is a sideshow. It's the end of the world. Why has everyone forgotten about the Dis?

- "We’ll accept if they ask us to recruit the Ar" - I thought they had already been asked by Man.

OVERALL 

Well, I think I've left almost everything up above, but in summary, I'm really quite frustrated by this chapter. A lot of it feels like epilogue material to me, and I think it takes the stakes built up in the last eighteen chapters and just chucks them out the window. I don't know what I'm supposed to care about now, it certainly doesn't seem to be the Dis, which is just a minor inconvenience that everyone appears to have forgotten about.

[Robinski]

Hmph. I seem to be swimming against the tide again, but really, I stand by my comments.

The word 'Dis' appears once in the chapter, and the word 'Eld' appears five times. The further I read--past halfway anyway--I felt like the Dis doesn't even matter any more.

[Mandamon]

Thanks @Robinski!

2 hours ago, Robinski said:

I feel like I've seen a lot of personal stakes for the various characters, and we've seen the El destroy individuals, and attack the walls of the N. What I want to see now, as thing approach the climax, are signs that the Diss is coming on now. I want to see large scale destruction, maybe the horror of big chunks falling from the walls of the N: cataclysmic stuff. I really think that would ratchet the tension up incredibly. I also find myself thinking that the death of a fairly major character about now would put down a marker for the reader that we are approaching the end of the trilogy, and nobody is safe. I feel were are very much in 'things getting worse', also 'now, and' or maybe 'yes, but'.

So this is where I was wondering if this chapter is just extraneous. All this stuff is coming (except maybe a major death...I'm not overly fond of those), but this is a little breather before things start rolling downhill. The rest of the chapters after this point all roll into the ending.

2 hours ago, Robinski said:

"made R his second" - Bit confused here. So, he hasn't adopted the position of head of the Council? If he has, I think that needs to be stated explicitly here. R being second doesn't feel like it means that much. Second of what?

Yep, need to expand on this point.

2 hours ago, Robinski said:

- "the wheel of life and death" - I don't recall this being mentioned in any of the books so far. This is very late to introduce some new spiritual concept,

yep, just a passing reference. It was mentioned at least in Seeds, and maybe in some of the novellas.

2 hours ago, Robinski said:

- "You would become a formal part..." - This is very cold and impersonal. I'd prefer it if they were invited to become members of the SoTH (Hah! There's a subtitle for this book: Revenge of the SoTH  ).

Lol. 

2 hours ago, Robinski said:

This chapter, for me, lacks a clear arc, and a compelling through line. There is some very interesting stuff going on, but it's really quite episodic, and doesn't add much if anything to the plot

Yep, as I said it's stuff that sets up some future stories, but isn't wholly tied to this one. They seemed to work, taking the whole series into context, but I'm not sure how necessary they are.

2 hours ago, Robinski said:

- "And do we want children?" - ARRRRGGGHHHH! I'm really frustrated. First Man has been thinking beyond the Dis, and now these two are doing it, presuming that the world will go on, they will survive and making plans for after the Dis

I think maybe cutting down the first two sections will help this one feel more important. I really want to have this in there, because it's important for the relationship between the three. Generally it seems like the others like the S/E/I relationship more, where you enjoy more of the adult's story, so that might be part of why you bounced off this.

2 hours ago, Robinski said:

"when the universe is no longer on the edge of destruction" - No!!!!!! I'm fizzing now. Nobody is taking the threat seriously, nobody. This is like a chapter from a different book.

Hmm...I can certainly tone this down, but I sort of appreciate the ray of hope here.

2 hours ago, Robinski said:

- "Do we even want to ask them?" - THIS. Here are the stakes of this chapter, on the second last page.

Yep, this is the focus of chapter 21. You had more of the reaction I was expecting this chapter to have, in that it's not really necessary. I'll have to ponder over how much of it I want to keep. Probably not all three sections, but I'll have to figure out which.

2 hours ago, Robinski said:

The word 'Dis' appears once in the chapter, and the word 'Eld' appears five times. The further I read--past halfway anyway--I felt like the Dis doesn't even matter any more.

I know I've stated a couple times that the two are connected, so I wonder how well this is coming across.

 

 

[shatteredsmooth]

On 5/25/2020 at 8:14 AM, Mandamon said:

I feel like the first two parts could technically be cut

Hmm I liked the first part because it helped me understand how the symphony worked between the two instances. 

I also enjoyed the scene between M and O. While there wasn't a whole lot of new information in it, I really liked seeing how these two characters reacted to and processed that information. 

Keeping the first two parts ties something together that had seemed very separate up until now. 

The one I had mixed feelings about was E and I talking about potentially having kids with S. It was a nice scene, but it also distracted me from the main plot line. I'm guessing that is the one you said you want to keep though. My initial reaction had been "they're talking about having kids now when the world is potentially ending" but its not uncommon in stories like this and in some ways, keeping it where it is does raises the stakes.

It also really makes me want I & E to get back with S.

Even though there was less action in this chapter, I liked it. The last one with Re was pretty tense, so this was a nice change in pace. A calm before the storm. 

 

As I read

"...leaned against another walls..." wall, not walls

On page 5, I got confused. 

So, first there is "The rumor was, he had visited the Ari, though he had been nowhere near there" 

If I am reading this right, M had never visited the Ari. Had I or E posed as him to get into Gl or am I remembering wrong?

Then, a little later

His mobile ears gave away emotion. “Yes, I captured the ...eventful.” And the reason his knees were more painful lately.

The first part about the mobile ears seemed like a tag indicating it was I talking, admitting to having impersonated M and then reminding him about the Ari assassins. But the later part about knees made it sound like it was M talking, saying he had visited the Ari when he just said he hadn't. 

Page 20

"He wished their boyfriend was here... ‘Boyfriend’ couldn’t encompass what they were to each other." I love this line so much! 

Page 22:

"...did our family truly copied..." had...copied or did...copy 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by shatteredsmooth

[Mandamon]

Thanks @shatteredsmooth!

5 minutes ago, shatteredsmooth said:

Hmm I liked the first part because it helped me understand how the symphony worked between the two instances. 

I also enjoyed the scene between M and O. While there wasn't a whole lot of new information in it, I really liked seeing how these two characters reacted to and processed that information. 

Keeping the first two parts ties something together that had seemed very separate up until now. 

Cool. That was really my intent with these. They're not really essential to the story, but I like them in there. I'm glad several people enjoyed them.

6 minutes ago, shatteredsmooth said:

The one I had mixed feelings about was E and I talking about potentially having kids with S. It was a nice scene, but it also distracted me from the main plot line. I'm guessing that is the one you said you want to keep though. My initial reaction had been "they're talking about having kids now when the world is potentially ending" but its not uncommon in stories like this and in some ways, keeping it where it is does raises the stakes.

Interesting. I wasn't really thinking of them talking about this with the world ending, but that does make sense. I wonder if I just need to up the stakes in this section to shine a light on it. It does tie into a later chapter. Interested to see what everyone thinks of the end!

8 minutes ago, shatteredsmooth said:

"He wished their boyfriend was here... ‘Boyfriend’ couldn’t encompass what they were to each other." I love this line so much! 

Yay!

[Robinski]

13 hours ago, Mandamon said:

16 hours ago, Robinski said:

- "And do we want children?" - ARRRRGGGHHHH! I'm really frustrated. First Man has been thinking beyond the Dis, and now these two are doing it, presuming that the world will go on, they will survive and making plans for after the Dis

I think maybe cutting down the first two sections will help this one feel more important. I really want to have this in there, because it's important for the relationship between the three. Generally it seems like the others like the S/E/I relationship more, where you enjoy more of the adult's story, so that might be part of why you bounced off this.

I certainly would not cut anything in this chapter, personally. It was all very interesting, but I feel that what is lost is the background of all the tension and stakes. You can very easily keep this section, IMO, but maybe there could be a line or two like 'Will we even get a chance to have a child? Will there be a word left for them to live in? That kind of stuff. It's like all the characters have forgotten the stakes, and their perilous situation. If each of the characters acknowledged the situation, how they are on the edge of the Dis, then I wouldn't change anything about the chapter, just lace through it, in each POV, the threat to their futures.

13 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Hmm...I can certainly tone this down, but I sort of appreciate the ray of hope here.

Yes, absolutely. But I feel the hope is all that plays through this chapter, and the threat is forgotten. One or two rays of hope are great, and absolutely necessary, but if the general tone is bright and positive, the rays of hope do not shine so clearly. I know we have several chapters to come, but I think of Frodo and Sam on the slopes of Mount Doom, how desperate their situation was, but they were still moving forward, and they talk about hope, and the talk about after (I'm sure they do, they certainly talk about the Shire), but the pervading atmosphere all around them is one of darkness and dread. That's what's missing in the chapter, IMO; the darkness; the threat; the dread.

13 hours ago, Mandamon said:

I'll have to ponder over how much of it I want to keep. Probably not all three sections, but I'll have to figure out which.

I really would try and keep them. I'd be sorry to see any of the scene gone from the story. It was probably lost in the ranting, but I certainly did like each of the sections. I felt it was just all three together, and what seemed to be a loss of focus on the thread of the whole book, but that can be injected into each scene, just to show the characters are still afraid, concerned for their futures, and the future of their world as they know it, without losing any of the scenes.

Here comes by 10c, also thinking out loud. Could you split them up? Maybe take one into an earlier chapter, then maybe put in a planning scene into this chapter. Even if you have a big strategy session coming up in Chapter 21. Man is talking to Ori, and I really like that scene. It's like it's been coming for three books and I would hate to lose it, but then Ri comes in, and the three of them (also not a scene we have ever seen, I think?) talk about going out as emissaries, and Man can be all inspiring leader and say stuff like, I'm entrusting you with these vital missions, you are our only hope <cough>, bring back aid or we might never be able to defeat the El. It leads into the next chapters, reminds the reader of the tension they should be feeling, and stakes and things getting worse, while retaining these enjoyable interludes that you have in this chapter (or possibly moved a bit).

[Mandamon]

6 hours ago, Robinski said:

I certainly would not cut anything in this chapter, personally. It was all very interesting, but I feel that what is lost is the background of all the tension and stakes

 

6 hours ago, Robinski said:

But I feel the hope is all that plays through this chapter, and the threat is forgotten. One or two rays of hope are great, and absolutely necessary, but if the general tone is bright and positive, the rays of hope do not shine so clearly.

 

6 hours ago, Robinski said:

I really would try and keep them. I'd be sorry to see any of the scene gone from the story. It was probably lost in the ranting, but I certainly did like each of the sections.

Ok, well that's reassuring! I'll focus on more of a throughline of "On no the end of the universe" while still keeping the main core of the section.

6 hours ago, Robinski said:

Here comes by 10c, also thinking out loud. Could you split them up? Maybe take one into an earlier chapter, then maybe put in a planning scene into this chapter. Even if you have a big strategy session coming up in Chapter 21.

Ooof. I don't know if there is a good place to do this without breaking the flow of other chapters, which is why I stuck them all together here. I wonder if it's better to break the flow a little for one chapter, or to potentially take the readers focus away from the main plotline for multiple sections?

[Robinski]

3 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Ooof. I don't know if there is a good place to do this without breaking the flow of other chapters, which is why I stuck them all together here. I wonder if it's better to break the flow a little for one chapter, or to potentially take the readers focus away from the main plotline for multiple sections?

Yes, I think you're right.

3 hours ago, Mandamon said:

more of a throughline of "On no the end of the universe" while still keeping the main core of the section

I really think this is 'all that I would need to keep my onboard and head of the ranting at the pass.