Hypothesising Hoid

[+Dalinar'sCroissant]

Though I've lurked often on this forum, I have been less than thorough so if the theory below has already been posted… please give me a link (if you'd be so kind) as I'd love to read the discussion! And if this would be better posted elsewhere, please let this newbie know how

Also yes, starting off my forum theorizing with a Hoid theory? Clichéd,  but I never claimed to be cool.

 

Like many, I often think about Hoid. What does he want? What are his motives? What is his favourite food? All vital cosmere questions.

 

We know Hoid is gathering different kinds of investiture in the cosmere. At first I thought that maybe he wants to achieve a certain level of power to achieve a specific aim. But this has problems: I don't see Hoid using the investiture-equivalent of using an atomic bomb… nor do I know whether he'd have access to all the invested arts he collects if he's off-planet from these shards.

 

So my mind travelled to the beginning, prior to the Shattering. We know Hoid was alive in Yolen pre-shattering and we know he has certain magical powers such as lightweaving in Yolen or his agelessness. If he had this magic prior to the shattering, then it's possible that the magical signature (is this a correct term?) of his power is of Adonalsium. That's to say, the investiture within his spirit web is pure undiluted Adonalsium.

 

So then the shattering happened, and the power got divided. 

 

We know that Hoid has certain restrictions/conditions - such as not being able to hurt others, or that he always appears where he's needed (or so he thinks). We don't know how these restrictions came to be, but a reasonable guess would be that they are conditions set by an oath he took. I do believe he mentions an oath of a sort to Shallan. 

 

Why would an oath restrict him so if he isn't a shard? This I don't know, but maybe it has to do with his original Adonalsium magic-system. If we consider the idea that the shards, as pieces of Adonalsium, have their rules and magic based on that template then the fact they're bound by oaths could also extrapolate to the original magic users. If Hoid, by the time of the shattering, was already relatively old (a couple of centuries maybe?) then it's possible he was some kind of priest/advanced mage of Adonalsium and therefore had made his oaths as a way to advance in the magical ladder. These oaths cannot be broken. This could also explain why Honour uses oaths: it's an adaptation of the ancient system… and since he really likes oaths then it suited him just fine instead of coming up with something new. This could also explain Honour not being able to foresee the Heralds breaking the oaths: maybe the oaths made to Adonalsium were more binding and impossible to break than those made to Honour.

 

So, what if Hoid isn't happy with these restrictions/conditions of existence? Then he would try to change them. But if the oath took place pre-shattering, then the investiture binding it would be of Adonalsium within his spirit-web. While his innate investiture might be of Adonalsium, he might not have enough juice to make the changes. Therefore, to change his spirit web, he would need to access all the 16 shards magic in order to make the necessary changes. 

 

To me, this explains why he's gathering investiture and possibly why he's so concerned about Odium. Maybe it's harder to gather or use the investiture of a splintered shard. The more shards Odium destroys the more difficult it's for Hoid. In fact, I think that given his line to Dalinar about him being ok with seeing Roshar burn to achieve his goals this makes sense. He's selfish in terms of what he hopes to achieve rather than being a good person who's concerned about the well-being of the Cosmere.

 

Now why does he want to change his spirit web? Maybe if not to release him from his oath, there could be any other number of reasons. Maybe, he just wants to die… or maybe he wants to save/bring back someone (as hinted by epigraphs) but to do so he'd have to break his oaths so he's trying to get rid of them. I don't know what his ultimate goal is, but this theory seems to be a plausible way to achieve them.

 

What do you think?

 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Dalinar'sCroissant said:

Why would an oath restrict him so if he isn't a shard?

They also restrict spren.

 

 

[Honorless]

Why wouldn't Oaths work on humans? It would require manipulation of the Spiritweb. Nahel Bonds do it to a degree, The Nightwatcher can probably do it too

Edited May 24, 2020 by R J

[+Dalinar'sCroissant]

9 minutes ago, R J said:

Why wouldn't Oaths work on humans? It would require manipulation of the Spiritweb. Nahel Bonds do it to a degree, The Nightwatcher can probably do it too

I was more thinking of the Heralds: they were able to break their oaths. What I'm trying to say is that maybe making an oath during Adonalsium's time was far more binding in the spiritual realm than one a current shard needs to make with a human. Hence Hoid  (in my theory) needing all the 16 pieces of investiture to break it.

Hope it makes more sense now

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Dalinar'sCroissant said:

I was more thinking of the Heralds: they were able to break their oaths.

Kind of and not without consequence.

1 hour ago, Dalinar'sCroissant said:

What I'm trying to say is that maybe making an oath during Adonalsium's time was far more binding in the spiritual realm than one a current shard needs to make with a human

It is also possible that the things Hoid did during the shattering made him more sprenlike.

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, Dalinar'sCroissant said:

I was more thinking of the Heralds: they were able to break their oaths. What I'm trying to say is that maybe making an oath during Adonalsium's time was far more binding in the spiritual realm than one a current shard needs to make with a human. Hence Hoid  (in my theory) needing all the 16 pieces of investiture to break it.

Hope it makes more sense now

The Heralds' Oathpact was binding, they just didn't break it completely. Why would oaths of Adonalsium be stricter than Honor's, who's a part of Adonalsium specifically concerned with such things?

The Letters and The Traveler could be taken to indicate that collecting Investiture isn't something that Hoid is doing just to accumulate power and he has a reason behind these acquisitions though

[+Dalinar'sCroissant]

Just now, R J said:

The Heralds' Oathpact was binding, they just didn't break it completely. Why would oaths of Adonalsium be stricter than Honor's, who's a part of Adonalsium specifically concerned with such things?

Fair enough. I guess I was trying to pre-empt the argument of "why can't Hoid just break the oath like the heralds?". However, if we assume the oath is just as binding then the idea that he needs to collect investiture from all shards to change it still works. 

 

3 minutes ago, R J said:

The Letters and The Traveler could be taken to indicate that collecting Investiture isn't something that Hoid is doing just to accumulate power and he has a reason behind these acquisitions though

Yep that's what I'm trying to get at: he's collecting all these types of investiture so he can change something within his spirit web (I posit the oath, but could be something else), but as the connections had been originally forged by Adonalsium's investiture in order to break them he needs all the 16 shards iinvestitures. So, only after he makes the changes he can achieve whatever goal he has.

 

 

[Shard of Reading]

I think that Hoid is Calvin (From Calvin and Hobbes) and he is gathering all of the magics to prove he was framed for the noodle incident. 

Proof: Both Calvin and Hoid can be philosophical and nutty at the same time. 

Now, praise my head cannon.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

13 hours ago, Dalinar'sCroissant said:

What is his favourite food?

Instant noodles. No really, its canon.

Quote

Questioner

What's the deal with Hoid and instant noodles?

Brandon Sanderson

...He likes his ramen, right? Like any sane person, he likes his instant noodles. Nothing more than that.

Questioner

...Has he ever had instant noodles?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, he's had instant noodles before. They have them on Taldain, yeah.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

13 hours ago, Dalinar'sCroissant said:

So my mind travelled to the beginning, prior to the Shattering. We know Hoid was alive in Yolen pre-shattering and we know he has certain magical powers such as lightweaving in Yolen or his agelessness. If he had this magic prior to the shattering, then it's possible that the magical signature (is this a correct term?) of his power is of Adonalsium. That's to say, the investiture within his spirit web is pure undiluted Adonalsium.

Wow, that's right. I'd never considered that.

[+Dalinar'sCroissant]

4 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Instant noodles. No really, its canon.

Whoa thank you! One less Hoid question to keep me up at night

[+Oltux72]

On 24/05/2020 at 3:57 PM, Dalinar'sCroissant said:

If he had this magic prior to the shattering, then it's possible that the magical signature (is this a correct term?) of his power is of Adonalsium. That's to say, the investiture within his spirit web is pure undiluted Adonalsium.

It used to be. Now at least he is a Mistborn. If he ever had pure Adonalsium in him, he did not consider that state of spirit web worth preserving.

[+Dalinar'sCroissant]

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

It used to be. Now at least he is a Mistborn. If he ever had pure Adonalsium in him, he did not consider that state of spirit web worth preserving.

I'm not seeing fully how that works? If he used to be pure Adonalsium and then became a Mistborn or a Radiant or a Sand Master, these investitures were part of Adonalsium anyway so he's adding parts of the same thing. I don't really see how being a Mistborn makes him less of Adonalsium, just that maybe that investiture is little more concentrated.

Kind of like a puzzle: if he collects all the shards separates investitures (which he seems to be doing) it would be Adonalsium's, or close to it.

[+Oltux72]

38 minutes ago, Dalinar'sCroissant said:

If he used to be pure Adonalsium and then became a Mistborn or a Radiant or a Sand Master, these investitures were part of Adonalsium anyway so he's adding parts of the same thing.

By that logic everybody would be purely of Adonalsium, as the Shards were also part of Adonalsium. That makes the distinction moot. You are purely of Adonalsium if you contain the parts of Adonalsium in the original shares. That is no longer the case if you add only some of them in higher amounts.

[+Dalinar'sCroissant]

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

By that logic everybody would be purely of Adonalsium, as the Shards were also part of Adonalsium. That makes the distinction moot. You are purely of Adonalsium if you contain the parts of Adonalsium in the original shares. That is no longer the case if you add only some of them in higher amounts.

I don't necessarily agree. At least how I see it, while the shards were all part of Adonalsium they are very distinct. Someone born in Nalthis would have Endowment's investiture in their spirit web, but not Honor's (for example). At least not to any signifcant degree.

Hoid was born in Yolen and was a magic user, so he would have Adonalsium's investiture. If he goes to Nalthis and buys some breaths, the investiture in his spirit web that had Endowment gets enhanced (more concentrated) but the rest are still there. I don't think investiture,  in the spiritual realm, overtakes or cancels the other but rather that the more you have the more spiritual power/juice you get.

 

[Golstar]

On 5/24/2020 at 9:36 PM, Karger said:

Kind of and not without consequence.

It is also possible that the things Hoid did during the shattering made him more sprenlike.

I think it's more than simply being sprenlike. He was beheaded during events on Yolen. A higher spren even remarks of his similitary to them. This is interesting as spren are supposed to be splinters, and thus be tied to one of the shards of Adonalsium. But as Hoid did not take a Shard, his link must be of a different origin.

Hoid at one point claims that he does not get become wiser or stranger. He claims to have begun life "as a thought, a concept, words on a page". To me his current state seems linked to the Spiritual Realm, as the other realms allow for growth and change. He is perhaps a sentient splinter of Adonalsium from the Spritual Realm, somehow able to transition to the other realms, similar to how Rosharan spren can transition from the Cognitive Realm to the Physical Realm under certain circumstances. Investiture is primarily of the Spiritual Realm.

He gathers stories and investiture. If the shards are an aspect of creation - perhaps Hoid is the splinter of some part of Adonalsium which defies description - and thus cannot be attributed to any shard. That which transcends. This also mirrors the way Hoid speaks about stories - he refuses to define them. He uses the ephemereal and the transient to tell stories: light, smoke and sand.

If Hoid is the echo of existence wondering at itself of the unknowable - then he does not have a specific goal we can pin down. He is a spren of fortune, happenstance and the unfolding stories of the cosmere. He is a chaotic and independent entity, but by nature unable to interfere through means beyond his stories. He shares his fortune with inhabitants of the cosmere - but he is a collector and a catalyst.of stories, he is not one to decide when a story ends. It must unfold to be collected. He facilitates events and even steals objects.

I am not waiting for a master plan from Hoid to reforge Adonalsium or change some rules. I expect to see him on a quest to keep the story moving. He is not trying to defeat or help Shards, but is an (not un-)witting agent of Fortune. A spren needs a sentient connection to be sentient in the Physical Realm. Maybe Hoid needs tell, participate in or learn stories to exist outside of the Spiritual Realm.

[+Dalinar'sCroissant]

1 hour ago, Golstar said:

 To me his current state seems linked to the Spiritual Realm,

I definitely agree that Hoid is closely tied to the spiritual realm, and probably has mastery over manipulating his own spirit web.

 

1 hour ago, Golstar said:

I am not waiting for a master plan from Hoid to reforge Adonalsium or change some rules. I expect to see him on a quest to keep the story moving. He is not trying to defeat or help Shards, but is an (not un-)witting agent of Fortune. A spren needs a sentient connection to be sentient in the Physical Realm. Maybe Hoid needs tell, participate in or learn stories to exist outside of the Spiritual Realm.

I think this is a lovely idea but don't necessarily think it's true. Hoid's line to Dalinar about seeing the world burn, and quite a few WoBs seem to indicate that Hoid does have certain selfish goals/motives of his own. I don't think at all it's defeating shards, reuniting Adonalsium or something as grand, but he's nevertheless planning something beyond merely participating in stories.

[Eternal Khol]

On 5/24/2020 at 5:57 AM, Dalinar'sCroissant said:

We know that Hoid has certain restrictions/conditions - such as not being able to hurt others

its not canon but in Dragonsteel Prime, Hoid thinks it has something to do with the practice of microkinesis.

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Golstar]

2 hours ago, Dalinar'sCroissant said:

I think this is a lovely idea but don't necessarily think it's true. Hoid's line to Dalinar about seeing the world burn, and quite a few WoBs seem to indicate that Hoid does have certain selfish goals/motives of his own. I don't think at all it's defeating shards, reuniting Adonalsium or something as grand, but he's nevertheless planning something beyond merely participating in stories.

He talks about needing something from the world. This matches his previous visits to shardworlds - he visits, interacts and collects. I really don't think the act of planning is something that fits him. He goes where he is needed, and it's even been stated he usually doesn't know why (source). He seems driven to collect and recount, but is he really mastermind and a planner? He could be a story imagined by Adonalsium before the shattering - brought into existence as a story about stories

Hoid has a very specific beef with Rayse/Odium - in my view of Hoid this is because of how the vessel manifests Odium which is self-centered, hungry to be given responsibility for all things, subverting free will of others and making everything about him. Hoid is the opposite - he is never responsible, he encourages free will, he keeps the story flowing, while he picks up bits and pieces to use in future events. I see him as Adonalsium's wonder at the consequences of free will and sentience.

The 17th Shard hunt him as he is fundamentally interventionist, even he if absolves himself of responsibility, perhaps because his intervention is more of an interception - working to prevent the Shards smothering the Cosmere and taking away the "human" (/insert other sentient) element.

The Third Oathbringer Letter does speak of an 'endeavour', but it also includes Harmony mentioning being the least equipped of all to aid with this. So I won't rule out that I'm reading a too abstract nature into Hoid's quest. But I do think the letters are about seeking assistance against Rayse, rather than a more far-reaching goal. But I think we'll have a much better understanding of what Hoid is trying to accomplish on Roshar after Rhythm of War. My guess is a relatively simple desire to foil Rayse, get assistance from greater powers in making sure Odium finds a more sustainable place in the Cosmere - and after that, it's back to telling and collecting stories.

[Weltall]

6 hours ago, Golstar said:

Hoid at one point claims that he does not get become wiser or stranger. He claims to have begun life "as a thought, a concept, words on a page". To me his current state seems linked to the Spiritual Realm, as the other realms allow for growth and change. He is perhaps a sentient splinter of Adonalsium from the Spritual Realm, somehow able to transition to the other realms, similar to how Rosharan spren can transition from the Cognitive Realm to the Physical Realm under certain circumstances. Investiture is primarily of the Spiritual Realm.

Hoid was human, once. A Splinter is by definition something that was never human, ergo Hoid cannot be a Splinter. While Brandon has said that Hoid is being literal with that 'words on a page' quote and not breaking the fourth wall as a joke, he's also said that it's meant to refer to how Hoid acquired his pseudonym.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Weltall

[Golstar]

22 hours ago, Weltall said:

Hoid was human, once. A Splinter is by definition something that was never human, ergo Hoid cannot be a Splinter. While Brandon has said that Hoid is being literal with that 'words on a page' quote and not breaking the fourth wall as a joke, he's also said that it's meant to refer to how Hoid acquired his pseudonym.

True, I meant to write sliver and not splinter, but I'll keep my original mistake in the post, so your reply doesn't appear nonsensical. My hypothesis comes from the fact that Hoid is has supposedly been effectively killed, but is still around. So I guessed he was perhaps Adonalsium's hope for what that person should and/or could become. He's been confirmed to be immortal to the point that is lack of ability to inflict physical harm is the primary barrier to him being an unfair opponent in a hypothetical king of the hill scenario.

But the mystery surrounding him is pretty cool, so I'm looking forward to leaning more. But I actually hope he's not a schemer and a planner from pre-shattering with far-reaching plans, but more of a drifter and storyteller with a connection to Adonalsium that gives him a special place in the Cosmere.

I do think the almost diametrical nature of Rayse and Hoid is an important part of his character.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Golstar
References to unpublished material

[Eternal Khol]

On 5/25/2020 at 6:00 AM, Oltux72 said:

If he ever had pure Adonalsium in him

i dont think there ever was such a thing as "pure" Adonalsium(investiture)

even before the Shattering, the different Intents were kinda already there.

its like when the 16 killed him, they just broke his power along pre-existing fracture planes, and locked each chunk of power to a certain Intent(or spin/magnetism)

 

 

Questioner

I was just wondering if a Shard's intent can change over time without changing holders?

Brandon Sanderson

Without changing holders? The holder can have a slight effect on how the-- a big effect on how the intent is interpreted, but what the intent is stays the same. So it's gonna be filtered. The way it manifests can change, and you'll see that happening, but it is the same intent. When it was broken off, it took a certain thing with it.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017)

 

snip of a WoB:

"I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time."

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Weltall]

@Golstar Heads up, if you've read the full version of Dragonsteel Prime, you're not supposed to talk about what's in it because it's not publicly available. One of these days, but today is not that day.

That said, while Hoid being a Sliver makes a whole lot more sense, Brandon has actually nixed that idea. Whatever he is, it's something else. We have the following WoBs to give us something to work with:

Quote

V_Spaceman

I was wondering if you could elaborate on a past wob. You said that Hoid and Frost are two of the oldest beings in the Cosmere. Does that include the vessels? Are the original 16 vessels younger than Hoid and Frost?

Brandon Sanderson

In the current outline, Hoid predates the others by a bit--he'd already started aging oddly before the Shattering. But that's not strict canon yet. (You can find evidence of it in Dragonsteel.)

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 6, 2018)

Quote

Valhalla

So, you talked about a weapon made by the enemies of Adonalsium, and you said it doesn't exist in it's original form. Do any remnants of it still exist in the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Valhalla

Have we seen any of those remnants on-screen?

Brandon Sanderson

*pause* RAFO.

In current continuity (and people would know this), Hoid's immortality comes from this. People who have read Dragonsteel know that.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

So Hoid was already unusual before the Shattering and his immortality is connected in some way to the Shattering itself via this 'weapon', whatever it was.

[Eternal Khol]

13 minutes ago, Weltall said:

In current continuity (and people would know this), Hoid's immortality comes from this. People who have read Dragonsteel know that.

is he saying that his immortality is explained in dragonsteel prime?

[Golstar]

23 minutes ago, Weltall said:

@Golstar Heads up, if you've read the full version of Dragonsteel Prime, you're not supposed to talk about what's in it because it's not publicly available. One of these days, but today is not that day.

I haven't - I was referencing a WoB which itself references Dragonsteel Prime, but I've edited my post to remove any ambiguity and the details of the event mentioned.

As for being sliver of Adonalsium: Reading that Brandon quote, it's evident that Hoid is not a sliver. But perhaps one could consider it from a different angle. Perhaps it's more akin to the investiture and influence that are imparted to all things by Shards. We know that Odium has a reduced capacity for influencing Roshar as it predates his arrival - but Ruin and Preservation are capable of much more direct manipulation on Scadrial due to their role as creators in that place. Could Hoid's powers simply be the result of investiture predating the Shattering, and thus while not a sliver of Adonalsium, as he never held a great deal of power derived from it. So perhaps the correct term would be that he is a human invested with a splinter of Adonalsium? As in he has a more than "normal" investiture that is part of every sentient creature.

[Weltall]

28 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

is he saying that his immortality is explained in dragonsteel prime?

My take on it is that whatever is in Dragonsteel Prime, it provides more of a basis to understand Hoid's immortality, but it likely doesn't fully explain it. Back when Brandon wrote it, Dragonsteel was planned to be seven books long and the one he wrote for his thesis would have been the third of them (the first two being the Hoid-centric prequels) so I'm guessing that there's a ton of stuff that Prime set up which we might be able to use for theorycrafting, but most of the big stuff was being saved for later volumes.

But for all I know, it's way more explicit and Dragonsteel Prime does explain it to a great extent. Hard to know when all you've got is the publicly available sections involving Bridge Four which were repurposed for Stormlight Archive.

1 minute ago, Golstar said:

I haven't - I was referencing a WoB which itself references Dragonsteel Prime, but I've edited my post to remove any ambiguity and the details of the event mentioned.

Ahhh, I hadn't seen that WoB yet, fair enough!

Quote

But perhaps one could consider it from a different angle. Perhaps it's more akin to the investiture and influence that are imparted to all things by Shards.

Could Hoid's powers simply be the result of investiture predating the Shattering, and thus while not a sliver of Adonalsium, as he never held a great deal of power derived from it.

Well, we know that it's possible to be influenced by the intent of a Shard when you hold some of their Investiture and the more you hold, the more the influence, so if Hoid was reasonably Invested pre-Shattering he's probably had a similar effect. How different this would be from anyone in the present era is hard to say though, since as Brandon mentions the various 'states' of Investiture corresponding to the Shards were always there, they just weren't differentiated the way they are now. So if Hoid somehow held a huge chunk of Investiture that would have gone to, say, Endowment, he might have been influenced in that general direction even though Edgli's specific interpretation of that intent didn't yet exist.

But it's also possible there would have been other influences since all that Investiture was held by a single entity with its own mind. We don't know much about pre-Shattering magic and how people interacted with Investiture, but there was an interesting recent WoB that mentions that while fabrials could have existed in theory, Adonalsium would have to specifically allow it. So yeah, could potentially be some influence from Adonalsium directly since if it could control the use of magic to that extent, nudging people towards a mindset in the same way that the Investiture that's associated with particular Shards does in the present day isn't outside the realm of possibility either.