95 posts in this topic

5 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

What? No. I'm saying that in a hypothetical blind reality that its unlikely that a person would develop the same personality traits.

I was asking why you bothered to debate me on a topic that you initially were not involved in only to tell me you don't feel its relevant. An odd occurrence. If you feel its irrelevant, just can ignore it. As you indicated, its a choice on what you reply to.

That sounds like they began bonding with humans and transforming into swords and granting superpowers just for the fun of it. 

I think spren choose knights to grant power to humanity not to live a 'The Real World" scenario.

So what personality traits do you expect blind people to have?

Also, why exactly do you think spren bond humans? It’s definitely not just for the humans to gain cool powers. The spren originally created the Nahel bond to mimic what Honor did with the Heralds. They didn’t anticipate their own loss of sentience and sapience, at least from what I remember. I think the spren wanted to help Honor and the Heralds in overcoming the desolations however they could, no matter the sacrifices.

If a blind person could assist in this goal, no matter how they achieved it, do you not think a spren would focus on the ultimate goal of defeating Odium and the Fused, rather than something as relatively trivial as humanity’s general views on disabilities? Spren aren’t human, after all. 

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Questioner

When does a person become a Surgebinder? Cause Kaladin talks about when he was a child, talked about it being a familiar feeling, and Shallan obviously was younger. Or is it when they speak the Words?

Brandon Sanderson

The bond starts forming before the Words are spoken, but if the words are never spoken that bond will eventually evaporate and get broken. But the bond will start forming before. Just like an emotion attracts a spren, acting in the way that the spren you would eventually bond will start drawing them toward you and that will start to create that bond.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Questioner

The Nahel bond, what determines whether you get a Cryptic or an honorspren?

Brandon Sanderson

The spren themselves.

Questioner

So it doesn't have to do with the Orders of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

If you match, you have to attract the spren, the same way you attract emotionspren, you have to attract the right spren for the Order.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

Questioner(paraphrased)

How do spren choose what human they'll bond with?

Brandon Sanderson(paraphrased)

Well, it depends on the spren type. There's some spren that choose on their own, while there's other spren where it's done by committee. Wyndle, Lift's spren was placed with Lift by a committee. It's a culture difference. Some are free-spirited, others more organized.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

Questioner

When you get, like, bonded with a spren-- the type of spren that is bonded to you, it depends on your personality and beliefs, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, mmhmm. The spren kind of choose, but they-- It's not a hundred percent choice. More like if they're drawn to it, things like that. So who you are, what your beliefs are, what your kind of moral code is can influence what type of spren you would get.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

Here are some WoBs, emphasis mine. I don’t see any that say spren are only choosing based on someone’s ability to Surgebind. 

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On 6/5/2020 at 4:48 PM, SingingMosaic said:

Having skills underestimated can be an advantage or a disadvantage. But when it is a disadvantage, you can often turn it into an advantage at the end anyway, with a healthy dose of extra work and determination.

That is a very Lightweaver thing to do.

On 6/5/2020 at 6:59 PM, Nymeros said:

If a blind person did manage to reach Jasnah's level of ability, then it would make total sense for a spren to choose them. Sight or no sight, that person is one in a million

I have a hard time imagining Jasnah who "was born in her thirties" not being Jasnah.

42 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

What? No. I'm saying that in a hypothetical blind reality that its unlikely that a person would develop the same personality traits.

Why not?

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22 minutes ago, AonEne said:

 Here are some WoBs, emphasis mine. I don’t see any that say spren are only choosing based on someone’s ability to Surgebind. 

On top of this, very few spren know who they are going to bond before they cross to the physical realm, instead they are drawn to certain people because of their personality. Being blind wouldn’t prevent a spren from being attracted to you. 
 

Edit: (rereading this I realize “attracted” was the wrong choice of words. I did not mean physical attraction, repeat I did not mean physical attraction) 

Edited by Hentient
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31 minutes ago, Blind Radiant said:

So what personality traits do you expect blind people to have?

What I think @Nymeros is saying that if we had two separate realities and in one someone was born blind, in the other they had sight we could reasonably expect them to become very different people.

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3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

What I think @Nymeros is saying that if we had two separate realities and in one someone was born blind, in the other they had sight we could reasonably expect them to become very different people.

That might very well be true. I can’t deny that some parts of who I am would be different if I had been born without the condition that has caused me to slowly lose my vision throughout my life. I have no way of knowing who I would be without that, and I would never know, even if I had stormlight, since my identity is so firmly rooted in me having some form of vision loss. Where this entire argument rubs me wrong is the belief that it would be at least very implausible, if not flat out impossible, for a blind person to become a radiant. There’s absolutely nothing in what we currently know of the Nahel bond that would definitively make it impossible for a blind person to form one and become a Radiant.

I’ve lived my entire life with people constantly underestimating me and denying me the things I’ve wanted to do just because of my disability. I’m not about to let the same thing happen in a theoretical situation in a fictional universe, one which I and many like me go to in order to imagine a place where we could possibly be viewed as being equally human as those around us, not to mention being viewed as having the same capabilities as them for once. These things are so constantly denied to me and those like me in the real world. That’s not going to happen in this fictional world as long as I have anything to say about it, and since none of this is cannon, I still have a say.

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2 hours ago, Blind Radiant said:

So what personality traits do you expect blind people to have?

Any kind. Blindness is a physical disability as far I know. I don't think it affects the individual's ability to develop certain personality traits. I could be wrong but I've never heard anything to the contrary.

What I'm saying is that if a person developed into XJCPG based on their spirit and their experiences in life, it is unlikely to me they would would develop into that same figure given different life experiences. Maybe an XKFCA instead (the X is for stubborn).:D

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Also, why exactly do you think spren bond humans? It’s definitely not just for the humans to gain cool powers.

Hmmm.....

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I think the spren wanted to help Honor and the Heralds in overcoming the desolations however they could, no matter the sacrifices.

......and they did this by turning into weapons and granting cool magic powers instead of, I don't know, using bonds to help develop humanity into a more psychologically stable force. It's not some social experiment. They were giving humanity tools to fight and endure in war.

2 hours ago, AonEne said:

Snip

Thanks for providing evidence to support my case....that was unexpected.

It's not some purely elemental force as I knew. Spren are attracted by a certain type of character but still have a choice in who they bond with. Exactly what I've been saying and Brandon reaffirms it multiple times here.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I have a hard time imagining Jasnah who "was born in her thirties" not being Jasnah.

I don't. In this thread, I've been imagining her as being born blind and more dependent by circumstances instead of being able to coast. I am aware that we disagree on this point though, and I don't believe I can sway you.

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Why not?

Different life experiences.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

What I think @Nymeros is saying that if we had two separate realities and in one someone was born blind, in the other they had sight we could reasonably expect them to become very different people.

No, no, n-......wait, that is what I was saying! Wow!

 

PS: Ya'll, I don't think it's impossible for a blind person the be chosen just extremely unlikely due the....blindness.

Edited by Nymeros
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5 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Different life experiences.

That really depends.  Renarin for example would probably have turned out more or less the same.  In fact his determination to help others despite all odds could easily have been strengthened and he could have become a Truthwatcher faster as a result.

5 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

I've been imagining her as being born blind and more dependent by circumstances instead of being able to coast.

When has Jasnah ever costed?

Edited by Karger
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1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

Thanks for providing evidence to support my case....that was unexpected. 

It's not some purely elemental force as I knew. Spren are attracted by a certain type of character but still have a choice in who they bond with. Exactly what I've been saying and Brandon reaffirms it multiple times here. 

Of course they have a choice, and they have no reason not to pick a blind person, because that’s not what they care about. That’s why I pulled up those WoBs, to show that spren don’t care about your disabilities. 

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7 hours ago, Nymeros said:

That sounds like they began bonding with humans and transforming into swords and granting superpowers just for the fun of it. 

I think spren choose knights to grant power to humanity not to live a 'The Real World" scenario.

I'm not saying it's the reason for the bond, its reason the particular person is chosen. 

As I said earlier, if it was all based on physical attributes, only the strongest soldiers of a certain age bracket would be bonded. We've already seen old people, children, one armed herdaziens and Renarin attract spren. 

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10 hours ago, Nymeros said: kind. Blindness is a physical disability as far I know. I don't think it affects the individual's ability to develop certain personality traits. I could be wrong but I've never heard anything to the contrary.

 I'm saying is that if a person developed into XJCPG based on their spirit and their experiences in life, it is unlikely to me they would would develop into that same figure given different life experiences. Maybe an XKFCA instead (the X is for stubborn).:D

Hmmm.....

......and they did this by turning into weapons and granting cool magic powers instead of, I don't know, using bonds to help develop humanity into a more psychologically stable force. It's not some social experiment. They were giving humanity tools to fight and endure in war.

Thanks for providing evidence to support my case....that was unexpected.

It's not some purely elemental force as I knew. Spren are attracted by a certain type of character but still have a choice in who they bond with. Exactly what I've been saying and Brandon reaffirms it multiple times here.

I don't. In this thread, I've been imagining her as being born blind and more dependent by circumstances instead of being able to coast. I am aware that we disagree on this point though, and I don't believe I can sway you.

Different life experiences.

No, no, n-......wait, that is what I was saying! Wow!

 

PS: Ya'll, I don't think it's impossible for a blind person the be chosen just extremely unlikely due the....blindness.At least we agree on the types of personality blind people can have. I’m not sure what all those letters you used were supposed to mean.

In terms of spren turning into weapons, yes, the bond was originally created during a time of war and desperation. That holds true 4,500 years after the “last desolation”, when the Nahel bond begins being formed again. If the spren were only interested in giving humans weapons though, why the necessity for the ideals? Why not just allow humans to use their powers and weapons to do whatever they want? If that was the case, then a substantial part of WoR would not exist. The ideals are important. Spren bond people who they think embody the order the spren is connected to.

It does seem to be true that a spren can choose not to bond someone, but I still think that if a blind person attracted a Cultivationspren for example, the spren could conceivably decide to go through with the bond and help the blind person in whatever way they can. We already have a precedent for spren wanting to help the people they’re bonded to. You just need to look at Syl and Kaladin to know that. If Syl genuinely wants to help Kaladin feel better when he’s in the depths of depression, why would the hypothetical Cultivationspren not want to help their blind human in whatever way possible?

You’re putting up a strong argument against blind people becoming Radiants for someone who claims to believe that it might be possible.

(This site was acting up while I was typing this. Hopefully it’s not too much of a mess.)

 

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Well, I'd just like to put my two cents in on some topics that have been brought up.

Will spren not bond people with certain problems? I say yes, to some degree. I personally lie somewhere on the spectrum, and as such have difficulty in social situations. Would a cultivationspren or bondsmith spren be attracted to me? I doubt it. I love learning, so would an inkspren choose not to bond me? In this case, I doubt my problems would change anything for it. Would any spren choose not to bond someone because they were born blind? I don't see how blindness would have anything to do with the spren's choice. If a blind person wanted justice, and embraced the law I see no reason they wouldn't attract a highspren. Sure, those surges would be among the most difficult for a blind person to use, but we haven't seen a spren bond someone because of the surges they would get.

Personally, I think Jasnah would be basically the same person if she were born blind. She had a neglectful father, and in a prejudiced world that is likely to have been compounded. She still would have gone to scholarship, and as a princess would have had access to everything that a normal blind person would not.

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Hello Everyone,

 

This is a topic that is very near to home for me as a blind person myself. It will therefor be somewhat long.

 

First of all, Blind Radiant, welcome to the forum. I'm glad to find another blind sole on this forum.

 

Before I do a deeper dive into how plausible it is for a blind person to become a Radiant, let's take a look at a few facts.

 

1. How many Surges could a blind person use effectively? 10.. They would be able to use them all as effectively as their sighted counterparts. How they would use them would simply differ.

 

2. What special traits would a blind person need to be considered as a Radiant above and beyond those of their sighted counterparts? None, blind people are a cross-section of humanity and could therefore exhibit all the traits a sighted person can.

 

3. Why would a Spren consider bonding a blind Radiant? Why not? If that person is the best fit for the job, there is absolutely no reason.

 

Okay, now that those points are out of the way, let's do a deeper dive, shall we? To understand the probability of a blind person becoming a Radiant, we need to understand a little more about my answer to point number two above.

 

When I say that blind people are a cross-section of humanity, I mean that both for the types of traits and personality they exhibit as well as the variety of interests and aspirations they have. There are blind straight people, blind gay people, nice blind people, truly awful blind people, blind construction workers, blind heart surgeons, blind murderers, blind rapists, blind actors, blind academics, those who are blind and like sports, those who are blind and hate sports, blind white people, blind brown people, parents who are blind, children who are blind, blind people who are positive about their disability and don't let it stop them from doing ANYTHING, blind people who let their disability stop them, blind soldiers (yes, active soldiers), blinded veterans who will never fight again, pilots who are blind, blind people afraid of flying, blind mayors, blind federal politicians, ... I think you get the point. The thing is, blindness does not define what a person goes on to do but it can, and often does, shape how a person goes on to do it.

 

Another point to consider when discussing the probability of Spren bonding blind people is the question of whether or not the blind person is at a "disadvantage" when compared to a sighted person. Often a determining factor in the success of blind people in the world is one of learning opportunity. Just like any sighted person who has had the chance to learn and experience a particular thing, for example the opportunity to learn to read, has an advantage over someone who has not, blind people who have had the opportunity to learn how to be proficient in the skills of blindness have a huge leg up over those who have not. To put this in the context of the Stormlight Archive, a blind person who has had the opportunity to learn to travel independently would have no problem navigating using the Surge of Transportation without a sighted guide even if most individuals would consider the task to require sight. Many blind people travel to unfamiliar environments unassisted. Similarly, a blind Radiant who had had the opportunity to learn to fight non-visually would have no problem effectively fighting as a Wind runner. Again, there are many blind people who fight entirely non-visually, often against sighted opponents.

 

Opportunity is a very important concept in the field of blindness. Blind people are often compared to other blind people and told they aren't good enough because they don't have a particular skill or a particular set of knowledge. However, those skills and knowledge sets are acquired, like in my example of sighted people and reading, through opportunity. There is no shame in not being an independent traveller if one has never had the chance to learn. Opportunities are a combination of those given to a blind person, and those created by oneself.

 

Another point that factors into the whole discussion of opportunity and skills is society. Quite often blind people are limited by the misconceptions about blindness that the general populous have. Simply reading this thread is enough to see that at play. The fact that many are willing to dismiss the idea of blind Radiants outright or that some feel that blind people are less worthy for selection by Spren clearly shows how far we have to go in changing societal views on the abilities of blind people. It is many of these very misconceptions that lead society to deny blind people the opportunities to reach for the stars. Do these misconceptions exist in the world of The Stormlight Archive?

 

where I work, we're an organization of blind and Deafblind people speaking for ourselves. Our work to change societal views can be summed up somewhat is breaking down myths and misconceptions about blindness/Deafblindness to show the world that blind/Deafblind folks (myself included) can participate on terms of equality with our sighted and hearing counterparts.

 

Have they reached the point in the world of The Stormlight Archive where blind people are scene as equal? Have they recognized the abilities of blind people? Do they allow them to hold positions of power, leadership, or other positions of influence? Are blind people given opportunities to become well-versed in the skills of blindness? These questions are truly what's at the heart of whether or not blind people could be Radiants.

 

P.S. A guide Cremling would be somehow amusing.

 

P.P.S. I am a big believer in a person's choice to use a cane verses a guide dog. At different points in my life I've preferred a cane to a guide dog and the other way around. It's about whatever works for someone. Neither is more valid than the other.

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To Blind Radiant and other blind site users. I've found the easiest way to post on this forum is to compose my message in a word processor and then copy and paste it here. You avoid the site weirdness that way. :)

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1) Welcome @Blind Radiant!

2) There are very clear examples in the books where spren chose their bonds based on personality rather than skill.  By any metric of ability, Dalinar should be a Dustbringer because he is basically living destruction in war.  But his personality (in recent years) is of a unifier, which is why he became a Bondsmith.  Ym and Stump don't seem much like warriors, and but their personalities lend them to being Radiants (Ym looks for truth in religion, and Stump looks for it literally in trying to suss out children's lies). Renarin has epilepsy.  theoretically, that should keep him off the battlefield, but no one seems to question him.

3) Seeing eye spren? Don't see why that wouldn't work

4) Leaders aren't always on the battlefield.  Scholars can have things read to them (like every Vorin man).  Not all art is paint. etc.

There is a lot more to go into, but i'm not great at articulating myself right now

Edited by Impact
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Thank you for all of that, Sightless Light Weaber. You made great points, and even said things I forgot to consider. 
That moment when a blind person forgets about things relating to being blind. :D

I want a guide cremling now! :)

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@SightlessLightWeaver Great post! :D (I do want to say that the mods prefer we don’t double post, sorry.) 

Ooooo, what about a guide axehound... 

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I do want to point out that fitness for... doing anything, really, doesn't seem to factor into who is bonded. Look at Renarin, who's had debilitating seizures for most of his life, IIRC. I'm pretty sure that'd prevent someone from using any Surges at all until it passes and yet he was apparently a fit candidate.

 

¤_¤

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As stormlight increases physical abilities, it makes sense that it would increase senses as well. Blind Radiants could fight just as well as anyone else. Think about Spook in the Hero of ages. For all intents and purposes, he is blind during the day, and yet he is able to stand against a whole group of allomancers. (Not for very long, but he does pretty well considering two of them are Thugs/pewterarms).

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Yay, now there are three of us.

Brandon does this a lot and it's one of the reasons why I appreciate him. He's got all kinds of disabled people, people who have always been that way, people who become that way, people who handle it well, people who don't, people who heal, and also people who don't but still go on to do amazing things. Like in the world.

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