95 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

Again, which do you think we be more effective overall:

-Every Radiant has psychological hang ups (as is pretty normal in world)

-Every Radiant is blind

The point that the others have been trying to make is that the spren don't care about how effective the Radiant is going to be. They care about the person's outlook on life, and how they resonate with the ideals of the order. In fact, being blind might actually make it more likely to be a Radiant, as that could be a source of "brokenness" for some people, especially with the Rosharan society the way it is.

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

No it isn't. It's just a hypothetical situation you made up.

The point of the situation is this: what would happen if Jasnah was blind, but had no other changes to her personality? Would Ivory simply choose not to bond with her? I think that  everyone is getting upset because what you are saying could be seen as saying that it is impossible or extremely unlikely for someone to have a personality like Jasnah's and be blind.

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

Or maybe Gavilar would have doted on her. Maybe being forced to rely on others would have greatly dampened her independent streak and confidence. Maybe Jasnah would care about having a masculine relationship with literature and learning. Again, it's entirely possible this blind woman would be similar to Jasnah we know now. I find it unlikely.

Again, the situation assumes that Jasnah is exactly the same in personality, with the only change being blindness.

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2 hours ago, Hentient said:

Yes, to prove a point.You’ve never met anyone who insists some aren’t vulgar before?

It doesnt allow you to prove anything though. Its just something interesting to discuss.

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I don’t understand why it’s so hard for you to believe that people who are blind are still people who have feelings and

I never indicated otherwise.

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are capable of doing things just like everyone else. 

Well no, not everything in the same way as everyone else. This is where we disagree.

2 hours ago, Karger said:

You are of course entitled to your own opinion. 

Yes of course. We all are and no one is wrong regardless of their stance. Completely impossible to know how the butterfly effect would change event and people.

48 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Again, the situation assumes that Jasnah is exactly the same in personality, with the only change being blindness.

Yes, I find it unlikely that such a change would have little effect on a persons personality and objectives.

 

I think there is more to Spren choices than personality and I dont think a spren would choose a blind person over a sighted person with the same characteristics.

Edited by Nymeros
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1 minute ago, Nymeros said:

Yes, I find it unlikely that such a change would have little effect on a persons personality and objectives.

It really depends on the person.  Someone who is independently wealthy and interested in philosophy or mathematics can probably will have a similar life with or without the ability to see.  Someone like Kaladin on the other hand would have a very different life because both of his professions depend on seeing and both informed his personal experience very deaply.

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I'll just put it this way because everyone has said it better than me:

I don't need help with most things. If I do, I'm confident in asking for it. If I don't, I'm confident enough in deflecting someone intent on their feel-good moment away from me. I've lived in dangerous areas since I was a small child. I was homeless, once with my family and once pretty much on my own. I handled that for as long as I was able and when I couldn't anymore, I sought assistance about it on my own terms like anyone else, able or disabled would.

Now, what would interrupt someone's capacity to do that? Mental health problems. Mine certainly have. My mental health problems are the reason why I am what I am today. And because most of them are chemical in nature, I'd have had them blind or not. I would still be me if I were sighted. I'd have had a different upbringing, and different experiences, so different traits would be more or less emphasized. I'm not denying that, but I'd be me.

And if music were a way for Jasnah to record and store information for her own reference and one she could use efficiently, I don't think she'd balk at that. No, she wouldn't sit about playing pretty music. But she could definitely use music. Imagine a Jasnah more sound oriented on Roshar. That presents some interesting possibilities where it comes to information she might have gained sooner or some she'd have gained that she didn't have because she didn't deem it important.

All I'm saying is I'm glad I don't have the visual distractions that most have. It occasionally presents an issue but much less commonly than you'd think. If I need visual information, I know how to seek it, and I know how to use it.

If I were there and a spren approached me, I think I would ultimately be OK. I'm no stranger to pain and frustration in the learning process, no stranger to challenges. I handle situations involving fire or dangerous chemicals well, you can imagine the learning process of a blind person for that. I use my hands around open flames and on hot stoves, and I do it reasonably safely. That was a painful learning process. And I retained my ability to read Braille, despite all my sticking hands in flames, I still have full sensitivity in my fingertips. That wasn't luck, that was understanding my environment and learning about what I didn't yet.

I'm just imagining all the uses for sound. If I had illumination, I could convince your brain that you were standing in a completely different space, in fact that you were standing on nothing at all. What do you think your brain does when given two absolutely contradictory sets of sensory input? Buys me time, that's what, and whether it's a few seconds or a few minutes, that's all I need to get the upper hand. Echolocation? Not a problem. I could use that to see better than sighted people. If I could echolocate as well as some surges would make me able to, I would be a force to be reckoned with.

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8 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Yes, I find it unlikely that such a change would have little effect on a persons personality and objectives.

The point is not that it is unlikely. The point is that it is that if Jasnah had the same personality and was blind, she would still be a elsecaller candidate.

11 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

I think there is more to Spren choices than personality and I dont think a spren would choose a blind person over a sighted person with the same characteristics.

In most cases, there is not a careful weighing of options before choosing someone to bond. Syl went to the physical realm and was attracted to Kaladin because of his connection to Honor, not because of his skill with the spear or as a soldier. The only spren we have seen who predetermined his Radiant was Wyndle, and that was because those spren hadn't bonded in a while.

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I have a few suggestions,

Adhesion used to sense the changes in air pressure pressure to locate things

Maybe illumination could be used with sound as a sort of sonar.

Progression used with a similar effect to life sense.

Transformation to sense the cognitive side of surroundings

A stoneware could possibly sense the movement or vibration on the stone 

 

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7 minutes ago, SingingMosaic said:

I'll just put it this way because everyone has said it better than me:

I don't need help with most things. If I do, I'm confident in asking for it. If I don't, I'm confident enough in deflecting someone intent on their feel-good moment away from me. I've lived in dangerous areas since I was a small child. I was homeless, once with my family and once pretty much on my own. I handled that for as long as I was able and when I couldn't anymore, I sought assistance about it on my own terms like anyone else, able or disabled would.

Now, what would interrupt someone's capacity to do that? Mental health problems. Mine certainly have. My mental health problems are the reason why I am what I am today. And because most of them are chemical in nature, I'd have had them blind or not. I would still be me if I were sighted. I'd have had a different upbringing, and different experiences, so different traits would be more or less emphasized. I'm not denying that, but I'd be me.

And if music were a way for Jasnah to record and store information for her own reference and one she could use efficiently, I don't think she'd balk at that. No, she wouldn't sit about playing pretty music. But she could definitely use music. Imagine a Jasnah more sound oriented on Roshar. That presents some interesting possibilities where it comes to information she might have gained sooner or some she'd have gained that she didn't have because she didn't deem it important.

All I'm saying is I'm glad I don't have the visual distractions that most have. It occasionally presents an issue but much less commonly than you'd think. If I need visual information, I know how to seek it, and I know how to use it.

If I were there and a spren approached me, I think I would ultimately be OK. I'm no stranger to pain and frustration in the learning process, no stranger to challenges. I handle situations involving fire or dangerous chemicals well, you can imagine the learning process of a blind person for that. I use my hands around open flames and on hot stoves, and I do it reasonably safely. That was a painful learning process. And I retained my ability to read Braille, despite all my sticking hands in flames, I still have full sensitivity in my fingertips. That wasn't luck, that was understanding my environment and learning about what I didn't yet.

I'm just imagining all the uses for sound. If I had illumination, I could convince your brain that you were standing in a completely different space, in fact that you were standing on nothing at all. What do you think your brain does when given two absolutely contradictory sets of sensory input? Buys me time, that's what, and whether it's a few seconds or a few minutes, that's all I need to get the upper hand. Echolocation? Not a problem. I could use that to see better than sighted people. If I could echolocate as well as some surges would make me able to, I would be a force to be reckoned with.

Using sound would be amazing! I love what you said about learning experiences. Humans are adaptable, and we both know that it is extremely possible to adapt to being blind. Add a nahel bond onto that, and you get something truly unique. Just imagine how a spren could help when needed. That, along with the examples you gave, would make us much more formidable than most would think possible. Plus, we could always use people’s tendency to underestimate us to our advantage. ;)

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I ran out of rep for today on this thread alone, thanks guys. lol

I love being underestimated. Sometimes it's irritating, when someone is condescending. But being underestimated is often pretty fantastic. I walk into a situation and evaluate it and depending on the results, I know which facade to adopt. It can be incredibly useful to have people talking around you like you won't hear them, the things you learn then, and the applications you can put that information to. Being blind gave me that. When I was little I learned pretty quickly how important it was to be able to gather information because people felt confident in the idea that no one was listening. I was often used by various family members who knew about this to help keep people safe, by providing them something they wouldn't have had at all had it not been for a disabled person who wasn't afraid to use their mind.

Having skills underestimated can be an advantage or a disadvantage. But when it is a disadvantage, you can often turn it into an advantage at the end anyway, with a healthy dose of extra work and determination.

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38 minutes ago, SingingMosaic said:

I ran out of rep for today on this thread alone, thanks guys. lol

I love being underestimated. Sometimes it's irritating, when someone is condescending. But being underestimated is often pretty fantastic. I walk into a situation and evaluate it and depending on the results, I know which facade to adopt. It can be incredibly useful to have people talking around you like you won't hear them, the things you learn then, and the applications you can put that information to. Being blind gave me that. When I was little I learned pretty quickly how important it was to be able to gather information because people felt confident in the idea that no one was listening. I was often used by various family members who knew about this to help keep people safe, by providing them something they wouldn't have had at all had it not been for a disabled person who wasn't afraid to use their mind.

Having skills underestimated can be an advantage or a disadvantage. But when it is a disadvantage, you can often turn it into an advantage at the end anyway, with a healthy dose of extra work and determination.

This is true. I almost wish I could see the looks on people’s faces when I do something they think I shouldn’t be able to. Lol

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Bonding moment ^_^

1 hour ago, Cammac said:

I have a few suggestions,

Adhesion used to sense the changes in air pressure pressure to locate things

Maybe illumination could be used with sound as a sort of sonar.

Progression used with a similar effect to life sense.

Transformation to sense the cognitive side of surroundings

A stoneware could possibly sense the movement or vibration on the stone 

 

I was also thinking since illumination gives the power change the way things look, it could also give a sense of what you are changing. 
 so if you added a layer of stormlight above an item, (without changing anything, so an illusion that’s exactly the same as the base object) you could have a sense of what it looks like? 
 

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17 minutes ago, Hentient said:

Bonding moment ^_^

I was also thinking since illumination gives the power change the way things look, it could also give a sense of what you are changing. 
 so if you added a layer of stormlight above an item, (without changing anything, so an illusion that’s exactly the same as the base object) you could have a sense of what it looks like? 
 

Oooo I really like that idea! It could be like getting a sense of the object by sensing the shape of the stormlight. I don’t know if stormlight actually works like that, but it’s a fascinating idea either way. 

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It's possible that the Radiant would be able to see their spren, or at least know where it was.

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2 hours ago, Nameless said:

The point is not that it is unlikely. The point is that it is that if Jasnah had the same personality and was blind, she would still be a elsecaller candidate.

Ohhhhhhh. I feel like blind Jansah would not be in the same position as current Jasnah and that Ivory would choose someone who could see. I reject the premise.:)

If a blind person did manage to reach Jasnah's level of ability, then it would make total sense for a spren to choose them. Sight or no sight, that person is one in a million

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Syl went to the physical realm and was attracted to Kaladin because of his connection to Honor, not because of his skill with the spear or as a soldier. The only spren we have seen who predetermined his Radiant was Wyndle, and that was because those spren hadn't bonded in a while.

You're not telling me anything I don't already know.

Edited by Nymeros
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6 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

You're not telling me anything I don't already know.

So therefore, Syl wouldn't have just left Kaladin if he was blind. She didn't care about his fighting ability, or any physical characteristic except for his desire to protect.

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Just now, Nameless said:

So therefore, Syl wouldn't have just left Kaladin if he was blind. She didn't care about his fighting ability, or any physical characteristic except for his desire to protect.

Blind Kaladin wouldnt be Kaladin

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Just now, Nymeros said:

Blind Kaladin wouldnt be Kaladin

He wouldn't have a desire to protect? Are you saying that he couldn't be a person who wanted to protect? That is all that Syl cared about.

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13 minutes ago, Nameless said:

He wouldn't have a desire to protect? Are you saying that he couldn't be a person who wanted to protect? That is all that Syl cared about.

If Kaladin went blind after the bonding process started it would follow through. If we're talking about a situation where Kaladin was blind from birth, thats a totally different story.

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Just now, Nymeros said:

If Kaladin went blind after the bonding process started it would follow through. If we're talking about a situation where Kaladin was blind from birth, thats a totally different story.

Well he probably wouldn’t be in the same position as a slave, or have the same experiences as a soldier, but he would still be an older brother to Tien, and so I think he would still have that desire to protect others. 

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9 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

If we're talking about a situation where Kaladin was blind from birth, thats a totally different story.

Well, he might not have gone off to war or been exactly like 'Kaladin' but he still could totally have attracted Syl, just maybe for different reasons.

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17 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

If Kaladin went blind after the bonding process started it would follow through. If we're talking about a situation where Kaladin was blind from birth, thats a totally different story.

You seem to be implying that you think blind people can’t have protective instincts. Do you realize that blind people have personalities just as complex as sighted people, personalities which could very well attract a spren, or do you think that their disability is a blind person’s entire identity?

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Spren choose their knight for two reasons.

A broken spirit web, from the struggles they have faced, to be be able to bond.

The personality traits of the order they are to be.

Neither of these would have anything to do with sight. Also spren lose most of their memory when they cross over from the CR so would find a human by instinct.

Not all kights are warriors either, otherwise the spren wouldn't have picked Tien, the cobbler, Lift, Stumps or Shallan as child. By the logic I have seen on here, the spren would only chose the strongest, able bodied soldiers. That's simply not the case.

Edited by Cammac
Typo
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20 hours ago, Frustration said:

Kaladin and Dalinar are on the Extreme end, the thing is most people have some physiological disorder or another, 1 in 4 people have depression on one level or another, it's not a fair comparison. The knights with mental disorders are far more capable of handling their duties than blind Radiants. I'm not trying to step on toes but I know I'm going to regardless,  this is not an attack on blind people but physiological disorders are just so much easier to treat or even ignore.

I’m going to disagree with that. When I say disorder, I mean something that is negatively impacting your life to an abnormal degree. Most people do have bouts of depression, but most of the population does not suffer from it on the level that Kaladin does. Look at Shallan, constantly breaking down, and tell me again that a blind person with nothing mental to deal with can’t compete. (And agreed with what others have said about it not being a matter of duties) 

20 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Why are you commenting on it then AonEne? I was replying to another poster. 

Because we’re all having a discussion here? I haven’t noticed any rules saying “only react to what is said directly to you” lol. Nobody is doing that. 

16 hours ago, Cammac said:

Sorry, double post

You can remove it in the options ^_^ 

I can’t reiterate what others have been saying enough - we know from Brandon that spren are choosing based on who a person is, not what that person is. 

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3 hours ago, AonEne said:

I’m going to disagree with that. When I say disorder, I mean something that is negatively impacting your life to an abnormal degree. Most people do have bouts of depression, but most of the population does not suffer from it on the level that Kaladin does. Look at Shallan, constantly breaking down, and tell me again that a blind person with nothing mental to deal with can’t compete. (And agreed with what others have said about it not being a matter of duties) 

He said that Kaladin and Shallan were on the extreme end of the spectrum, and that more average KR would have far less severe or even not any disorders at all (Take Lopen, for example) not that Kaladin and Shallan would be better than someone who is blind.

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8 hours ago, Nameless said:

He said that Kaladin and Shallan were on the extreme end of the spectrum, and that more average KR would have far less severe or even not any disorders at all (Take Lopen, for example) not that Kaladin and Shallan would be better than someone who is blind.

*shrugs* I’m still standing by that, but of course all are free to have their own opinion. 

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On 6/5/2020 at 7:46 PM, Blind Radiant said:

You seem to be implying that you think blind people can’t have protective instincts.

What? No. I'm saying that in a hypothetical blind reality that its unlikely that a person would develop the same personality traits.

13 hours ago, AonEne said:

Because we’re all having a discussion here? I haven’t noticed any rules saying “only react to what is said directly to you” lol. Nobody is doing that. 

I was asking why you bothered to debate me on a topic that you initially were not involved in only to tell me you don't feel its relevant. An odd occurrence. If you feel its irrelevant, just can ignore it. As you indicated, its a choice on what you reply to.

19 hours ago, Cammac said:

Spren choose their knight for two reasons.

A broken spirit web, from the struggles they have faced, to be be able to bond.

The personality traits of the order they are to be.

That sounds like they began bonding with humans and transforming into swords and granting superpowers just for the fun of it. 

I think spren choose knights to grant power to humanity not to live a 'The Real World" scenario.

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