God abandonment issue

[Thatoneguy]

I'm new to the website and can't find this question so I thought I'd ask: (spoilers for book three I believe)

 

 

As I understand it, Odium came to Roshar from Braize with the humans. Honor and Cultivation and the Listeners were all natives of Roshar. So why did Honor/Cultivation back the humans?

Also, I get that the ancient Listeners tied to Odium would go back to Braize in death, but why don't the humans go there as well if they were the original connection? Did they just decide as a people to fully swap gods?

Final question, why did Honor/Cultivation decide to share a planet? I get the reasoning behind Ruin/Preservation, but I feel they dont need eachother to form their own worlds.

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, Thatoneguy said:

As I understand it, Odium came to Roshar from Braize with the humans.

Quick side note.  They came from Ashyn.  Also Odium moving is kind of a misnomer since he is sort of omnipresent.  It is more accurate to say he started focusing his attention on Roshar.

5 minutes ago, Thatoneguy said:

Honor and Cultivation and the Listeners were all natives of Roshar. So why did Honor/Cultivation back the humans?

We don't really know the specifics of how that conflict started or who was on which side. 

6 minutes ago, Thatoneguy said:

Also, I get that the ancient Listeners tied to Odium would go back to Braize in death, but why don't the humans go there as well if they were the original connection? Did they just decide as a people to fully swap gods?

We don't know where most people go when they die.  The ancient Listeners(the fused) can't die normally and were just transported back to braize on death(now they are caught by the everstorm).

7 minutes ago, Thatoneguy said:

Final question, why did Honor/Cultivation decide to share a planet? I get the reasoning behind Ruin/Preservation, but I feel they dont need eachother to form their own worlds.

They did not form the world.  Adonalsium did.  They just decided to come live on Roshar.  As to why they came together.  The vessels were romantically involved.

[Mat]

25 minutes ago, Thatoneguy said:

 Honor and Cultivation and the Listeners were all natives of Roshar. 

Honor and Cultivation are from Yolen like all the other shards, I believe. 

[Aminar]

The Singers predate the breaking of Adonalsium so its quite possible that Honor and Cultivation were a little biased in the favor of people that looked more like them. But I suspect it has less to do with them abandoning anyone and more to do with Odium abandoning the humans. 

The way it seems to me, we had a planet run by Odium. They used a Passion based surge-binding system that ended up rendering the planet uninhabitable. Humans then fled to Roshar. Some kind of deal was struck giving them Shinovar. Odium drove them to conquest. A form of peace was eventually arranged between Humans and Singers. Odium was unhappy with this and switched sides to keep the war going, feeding the anger and rage of the Singer Leadership, and creating the fused. The war raged longer, and the oathpact was made to prevent Roshar from being rendered uninhabitable. Noting that all of this must have taken less than 10 years given that the Heralds were alive when the crossing was made and that they look the age they were when they became heralds. Which still strikes me as less than believable the way the events have been depicted so far with The Girl who Looked Up. 

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Aminar said:

Noting that all of this must have taken less than 10 years given that the Heralds were alive when the crossing was made and that they look the age they were when they became heralds

Closer to thirty.  Ash was born on Roshar. 

[Aminar]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Closer to thirty.  Ash was born on Roshar. 

Potentially. Brandon said he wasn't sure but thought she wasn't. And I doubt she was in her 30s when she was made a radiant if her father also was. It's more likely their age gap is 17-20 years. 

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Aminar said:

Potentially. Brandon said he wasn't sure but thought she wasn't. And I doubt she was in her 30s when she was made a radiant if her father also was. It's more likely their age gap is 17-20 years. 

At the risk of getting pedantic Ash looks like she is in her early to mid 20s.  Assuming she was born around or a little after the exodus from Ashyn you get to about 25-27 years which is "closer to 30"

[Aminar]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

At the risk of getting pedantic Ash looks like she is in her early to mid 20s.  Assuming she was born around or a little after the exodus from Ashyn you get to about 25-27 years which is "closer to 30"

I've detailed before how Ash's age doesn't mean much. Heralds are immortal, not frozen. That means they don't age but it doesn't mean their bodies won't continue the natural growth progression of the human body, which happens to stop at around 25. Assuming we don't want any parents in their teens running around because of modern sensibilities, We have Jezrian becoming a dad at about 18 and Ash becoming a Herald when she's 18 and her Dad is 36ish. But I more meant that assuming she was 7 or 8 when the barrier was broken There's not a lot of time in there for Jezrian to be super leaderly and wise and the whole war thing to happen. It gets to be a very very compressed timeline. Unless we don't think Ash was the girl who looked up, and that seems very unlikely to me. 

[Karger]

11 minutes ago, Aminar said:

Unless we don't think Ash was the girl who looked up, and that seems very unlikely to me. 

I do not think the girl that looked up was an actual person.  Also this would indicate that she is largely responsible for the war personally which makes one wonder why on earth she was chosen as a Herald. 

[Aminar]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

I do not think the girl that looked up was an actual person.  Also this would indicate that she is largely responsible for the war personally which makes one wonder why on earth she was chosen as a Herald. 

Folktales generally have a root in truth. How it worked was probably different than the telling we saw, but it makes sense to have Shallash as the youngest of the Heralds and the only living character who could have been a child at the time, a character we'll almost certainly get flashbacks from later, be that girl. From there she was a child. She cannot be responsible for the war that followed, but her defining attribute at the moment is shame. The story arc tracks. Her later actions and guilt over what she caused would make perfect sense as to why she would take on the Oathpact. Trying to make up for the horror she feels guilty about. Being made a Herald was not a gift. It was a burden people who wanted to make the world better took on. The defining attribute of those people was one no selfish person would have. Willingness to endure eternal torture to keep others safe. Undoubtably Odium is the truly responsible party. The parallels with the garden of Eden are pretty strong. 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Aminar

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Aminar said:

Folktales generally have a root in truth

Sure and all of what you say make sense.  I just find it doubtful that any reasonable singer would actually start a war over the actions of an eight year old and if they did then war was probably inevitable anyway.

[Chiberty]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Closer to thirty.  Ash was born on Roshar. 

 

43 minutes ago, Aminar said:

Potentially. Brandon said he wasn't sure but thought she wasn't. And I doubt she was in her 30s when she was made a radiant if her father also was. It's more likely their age gap is 17-20 years. 

17-20 is more accurate. Maybe less.

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by ChickenLiberty

[Aminar]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

Sure and all of what you say make sense.  I just find it doubtful that any reasonable singer would actually start a war over the actions of an eight year old and if they did then war was probably inevitable anyway.

Reason and Passion don't always get along. Hence blaming Odium. 

[Eternal Khol]

46 minutes ago, Aminar said:

That means they don't age but it doesn't mean their bodies won't continue the natural growth progression of the human body

Questioner

I have a bit of a problem with the first Desolation timeline. I'm wondering how old were the Heralds when they became Heralds.

Brandon Sanderson

The age that you would see them as when you met them. They basically are the age they look. When they became Heralds, they are the age that they appeared.

Questioner

So they were like in their younger middle age?

Brandon Sanderson

Some of them. I mean Ishar is older.

Questioner

So that means that the entire timeline of the first Desolation happened within a single lifetime?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of the ancient chronologies are wrong and you won't get the actual answers until the Heralds themselves explain it in their flashback sequences in the back five. 

Questioner

You've said that the Heralds came over from Ashyn. 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Okay. How old were they then?

Brandon Sanderson

Younger than they were when they became Heralds.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Edited May 22, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Aminar]

3 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Questioner

I have a bit of a problem with the first Desolation timeline. I'm wondering how old were the Heralds when they became Heralds.

Brandon Sanderson

The age that you would see them as when you met them. They basically are the age they look. When they became Heralds, they are the age that they appeared.

Questioner

So they were like in their younger middle age?

Brandon Sanderson

Some of them. I mean Ishar is older.

Questioner

So that means that the entire timeline of the first Desolation happened within a single lifetime?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of the ancient chronologies are wrong and you won't get the actual answers until the Heralds themselves explain it in their flashback sequences in the back five. 

Questioner

You've said that the Heralds came over from Ashyn. 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Okay. How old were they then?

Brandon Sanderson

Younger than they were when they became Heralds.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

He's talking in general while Ash could very easily be an exception he isn't willing to go into to avoid spoiling things and to save time. We know her father appears to be in his 30s and she looks to be in her early 20s. A big part of the female body change between the teens and 20s is a hormone reaction. That isn't aging. Her cell copying can be perfect so she doesn't wrinkle or or age in the way we picture aging, while her figure can fill out due to hormones. In addition her brain development likely didn't freeze if she was made a herald before it finished in her mid 20s. 

[Eternal Khol]

30 minutes ago, Aminar said:

He's talking in general while Ash could very easily be an exception he isn't willing to go into to avoid spoiling things and to save time. We know her father appears to be in his 30s and she looks to be in her early 20s. A big part of the female body change between the teens and 20s is a hormone reaction. That isn't aging. Her cell copying can be perfect so she doesn't wrinkle or or age in the way we picture aging, while her figure can fill out due to hormones. In addition her brain development likely didn't freeze if she was made a herald before it finished in her mid 20s. 

so if we go off of what your saying, And Ash is indeed in her late teens to early twenties, everytime shalash is reborn, shed get put into a immature body then spend the next few years “growing” until her brain and body are that of a “25” year old adult

that doesn’t sound right to me

im not really grasping what your trying to convey, so just correct me if im misinterpreting all this

Edited May 22, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Aminar]

14 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

so if we go off of what your saying, And Ash is indeed in her late teens to early twenties, everytime shalash is reborn, shed get put into a immature body then spend the next few years “growing” until her brain and body are that of a “25” year old

that doesn’t sound right to me

im not really grasping what your trying to convey, so just correct me if im misinterpreting all this

No. I'm saying that she looks to be in her 20s because physically that's when maturing largely stops but that she became a herald in her late teens so that her father could also be on his 30s without some really young paternity going on. Like, she was 17 or 18 when the Oathpact was sworn while her father was between 34 and 36. I don't think she gets a new body when she dies or anything. Just gets healed and teleported off to Damnation. And that creates a very narrow window for the war that started the Desolations to happen in and a narrow window for it to start. Like, if she was born year 0 the war probably started in year 7 to 9 and the Oathpact was sworn within a decade of that to end the war. It just strikes me as a really tight timeline. Even if the Oathpact did happen in her twenties it's a really tight timeline for a war that lasts thousands of years to start. 

And I should add that we know their bodies don't completely freeze biological processes because they still have hair growth going on so it makes sense that other hormonal processes would continue. 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Aminar

[Eternal Khol]

32 minutes ago, Aminar said:

No. I'm saying that she looks to be in her 20s because physically that's when maturing largely stops but that she became a herald in her late teens so that her father could also be on his 30s without some really young paternity going on. Like, she was 17 or 18 when the Oathpact was sworn while her father was between 34 and 36. I don't think she gets a new body when she dies or anything. Just gets healed and teleported off to Damnation. And that creates a very narrow window for the war that started the Desolations to happen in and a narrow window for it to start. Like, if she was born year 0 the war probably started in year 7 to 9 and the Oathpact was sworn within a decade of that to end the war. It just strikes me as a really tight timeline. Even if the Oathpact did happen in her twenties it's a really tight timeline for a war that lasts thousands of years to start. 

And I should add that we know their bodies don't completely freeze biological processes because they still have hair growth going on so it makes sense that other hormonal processes would continue. 

Okkkkk. That makes a lot more sense now. 
 Thanks for clearing that up. 

But if Honor just kept healing their bodies for hundreds of years(or however long the desolation timespan was)wouldn’t it be like they had a new body? because it’s constantly getting healed and remade with investiture patching over the bad parts, so eventually youd have a whole new spiritweb(or at least the part of your spiritweb that includes your body?)that’s a copy of the old

 

 i still think they do get new bodies when they die, based on this WoB

Its still not a total confirmation as he was being very vague.... but still.

Questioner

Can a Returned be made from Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

How would you count the Heralds?

Questioner

I haven't read much, so I don't really know what you're talking about.

Brandon Sanderson

In the Stormlight books, there is a set of people who are constantly reborn, into full sized grown bodies that are being created for them. Would you count that as being Returned?

Or do you count Returned...What's your definition, right? You can create something that is Returned-like. But your definition of what is Returned and what is not, is going to be involved in that.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

Edited May 22, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Aminar]

4 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Okkkkk. That makes a lot more sense now. 
 Thanks for clearing that up. 

But if Honor just kept healing their bodies for hundreds of years(or however long the desolation timespan was)wouldn’t it be like they had a new body? because it’s constantly getting healed and remade with investiture patching over the bad parts, so eventually youd have a whole new spiritweb(or at least the part of your spiritweb that includes your body?)that’s a copy of the old

 

 i still think they do get new bodies when they die, based on this WoB

Its still not a total confirmation as he was being very vague.... but still.

Questioner

Can a Returned be made from Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

How would you count the Heralds?

Questioner

I haven't read much, so I don't really know what you're talking about.

Brandon Sanderson

In the Stormlight books, there is a set of people who are constantly reborn, into full sized grown bodies that are being created for them. Would you count that as being Returned?

Or do you count Returned...What's your definition, right? You can create something that is Returned-like. But your definition of what is Returned and what is not, is going to be involved in that.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

I suppose we can also look at it as the bodies created match up to how they were when they died. Unless we think they reform with whatever haircut etc they had right when the oathpact was sworn. It's largely immaterial. I don't think Shallash is like, re-experiencing late puberty with every desolation or anything. I just think the immortality she has wouldn't stop developmental stuff, only aging stuff. It keeps things consistent without getting into too many weird issues with age and relationships that would feel off in Stormlight. At least given the fact Cosmere courting is, from what we've seen, largely more in line with our modern sensibilities than say, Game of Thrones.  

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

Reason and Passion don't always get along. Hence blaming Odium. 

Sure but I still find an eight year old starring a war by crossing a mountain by herself and without permission a ludicrous cause for a war.

[KandraAllomancer]

4 hours ago, Thatoneguy said:

As I understand it, Odium came to Roshar from Braize with the humans. Honor and Cultivation and the Listeners were all natives of Roshar. So why did Honor/Cultivation back the humans?

As @Karger pointed out, we don't know the details, but we have some clues. As far as I can tell, the initial support for humans didn't come from H+C, but from the spren. While Honor is clearly benevolent, his splinters don't necessarily need to be (just look at Spark, Malata's vengeful Ashspren) and might have backed humans out of selfish (but still technically lawful) reasons, as described in the Song of Spren (9th stanza):

Quote

The spren betrayed us, it's often felt.
Our minds are too close to their realm
That gives us our forms, but more is then
Demanded by the smartest spren,
We can't provide what the humans lend,
Though broth are we, their meat is men.

Then the Fused were created and Honor and Cultivation didn't have much choice but get involved

5 hours ago, Thatoneguy said:

Also, I get that the ancient Listeners tied to Odium would go back to Braize in death, but why don't the humans go there as well if they were the original connection? Did they just decide as a people to fully swap gods?

The Fused were specifically turned into cognitive shadows / spren by Odium, probably because of how easy they could possess the Singer bodies (as they have gemhearts)

[Aminar]

18 hours ago, Karger said:

Sure but I still find an eight year old starring a war by crossing a mountain by herself and without permission a ludicrous cause for a war.

Passion was a direct reference to Odium's influence. I should have been clear rather than going for the joke. Odium seems to like conflict. So most likely he used her as an example of behavior they should fear out of the human refugees the Singers took in, inciting a war using the age old tactics of fearmongering and xenophobia while using his Shard's nature to massively amplify those emotions. It doesn't take a lot of looking to see horrible things done to and because of children because of those emotions without a god's influence.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Aminar

[Karger]

On 5/22/2020 at 8:45 PM, Aminar said:

It doesn't take a lot of looking to see horrible things done to and because of children because of those emotions without a god's influence.

Given the human predisposition to border disputes.  Even more so between peoples of differing customs and technological proficiency I think a much larger number of nastier confrontations would have occurred that would be much easier to exploit.  For example banditry that the humans authorities looked the other way on.  At least some would have happened given the great differences in population.  A single individual even with a god involved causing a war by herself is just not something I can believe I am sorry.

[Gilphon]

I mean. I feel like if the girl who looked up was a real person, it's likely that she's Ash. 

And- while certainly there are parts of the story aren't literally how things played out, it would surprise me if they weren't based on real events. And, therefore, it would surprise me if Ash didn't play a significant role in causing things to go south. 

Like remember that a good portion of that story is likely to be told to be us through Ash's flashback chapters. The idea of her being an important player in those events feels like a safe bet. 

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Gilphon said:

I mean. I feel like if the girl who looked up was a real person, it's likely that she's Ash. 

I can't speak to your feelings.  As Jasnah says they are your own.  However I would like to point out that your entire assessment is based on a feeling that is based on an if statement.

2 hours ago, Gilphon said:

And- while certainly there are parts of the story aren't literally how things played out, it would surprise me if they weren't based on real events.

Agreed.  But the story could just as easily(and in my view more probably) refer to events metaphorically.  The monstrous humans desire something that will improve their lives(like the gemstones of many rosharan creatures) to carry "god's light" or investiture.  As such they clime "the wall" or the mountains of shinovar(also metaphorically they break their agreement not to do so).  They find the singer society and take stormlight back(possible meaning the gemstones they have acquired hunting greatshells) and this brings storms(starts a war) because of ecological devastation(like the scouring of Aimia) and the increased distrusted of too cultures who are not engaging in an open mutually respectful relationship.

2 hours ago, Gilphon said:

And, therefore, it would surprise me if Ash didn't play a significant role in causing things to go south. 

2 hours ago, Gilphon said:

Like remember that a good portion of that story is likely to be told to be us through Ash's flashback chapters. The idea of her being an important player in those events feels like a safe bet. 

Eventually maybe but if the war went on long enough and bitterly enough for the singers to seek outside help from "the void" Ash would have been pretty young when it started.  Perhaps she grew up with it.