What determines access to magic systems

[shawnhargreaves]

I was thinking about the similarities between Allomantic snapping, the Nahel bond requiring cracks in the soul, and the Shaod.  I can't quite put my finger on it, and this is by no means consistent across all the systems we have seen so far, but there do seem to be recurring patterns in how people gain access to the different magics.

 

In many cases this is a two stage filter.  On thing determines a pool of people who have the potential to use a magic system, and then another, completely different thing activates that potential so they can actually use it.  I'm going to call these "potential" and "activation".

 

Starting with the magics that most clearly fit this two stage pattern:

 

Surgebinding

potential = has a "cracked soul" which allows a spren to form the Nahel bond

activation = following and speaking the Ideals

 

Aon Dor

potential = tied to geographical location

activation = the Shaod, which is apparently random (although I have my doubts about that...)

 

Allomancy

potential = inherited sDNA from someone who ingested a bead of Lerasium

activation = snapping caused by extreme stress

 

Leaving out systems such as Dakhor and Forging that I just don't know enough about, there are four magics that appear to only require a single thing to gain access:

 

Feruchemy

potential = inherited sDNA from however the Terris people originally got this magic (unless I missed something, we don't know that yet?)

activation = none required?

 

Hemalurgy

potential = unrestricted?  (it's implied although I think never explicitly stated that anyone can be spiked, but I don't think we know whether there are special requirements as to who can do the spiking)

activation = spike steals ability from some other magic user

 

Awakening

potential = anyone on Nalthis can do this?

activation = enough other people choose to give you their Breath

 

Returned

potential = anyone on Nalthis?

activation = die in an especially virtuous way

 

Am I overthinking this, or is there a chance we may later learn that Feruchemy requires some form of activation, while Hemalurgy and Awakening have a potential users filter that we don't know about yet?

[Curiosity]

Surgebinding, Allomancy, and AonDor all have something in common: you're channeling Investiture from the main body of the Shard. For the other systems, you're dealing with the Innate Investiture of the individuals, and not using any more of a Shard's power. 

 

From what we can tell, Snapping (I'll use this term to talk about both Allomantic Snapping and the trauma necessary to have a Nahel bond with a spren) shatters the Spirit Web, or the Spiritual makeup of a person, so that they can allow the power of a Shard through it. How exactly the Shaod works, we don't know. It seems to act somewhat like the Returning, though Elantrians apparently don't hold Splinters. 

 

Allomancers channel the power of Preservation through metals in their bodies. Surgebinders channel Stormlight, that is, the power of (I'm guessing) Honor to control Surges. Elantrians use the power of Devotion? Dominion? Both?, channeling it through Aons, not themselves, for a variety of purposes. These three magics are fueled directly by Shards, which means that there needs to be a "crack" into the Physical Realm for the power to flow through. So, something has to shatter. 

 

Feruchemy, Awakening (I think that Returning is a special case of this), and Hemalurgy all take innate investiture or power from one person (read: member of a sentient race) and allows them to move it elsewhere. For Awakeners, they take their Innate Investiture and give it to others or an object. For Hemalurgy, you rip a portion the Innate Investiture of someone else, along with the structure of their soul. In Feruchemy, one takes one's own power and ability and tuck it away for use later. In all three of these cases, there are isn't any Shard directly powering the magic. 

 

AonDor seems to be a very interesting case, though I've got an essay to write, so I can't explore that right now.

 

I'm terrible at finding sources to back everything I say up, so feel free to contradict or support me. Or ignore me as someone with baseless arguments. 

[PorridgeBrick]

Hemalurgy, IMO, is forced Snapping. You take a giant metal spike, and impale someone with it, ripping apart their Spiritweb so they can access the Spiritweb fragment inside. Of course, it goes rather overboard, leaving empty gaps where other Investitures, like that of Emotional Allomancy, can invade.

Edited June 1, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[shawnhargreaves]

Surgebinding, Allomancy, and AonDor all have something in common: you're channeling Investiture from the main body of the Shard. For the other systems, you're dealing with the Innate Investiture of the individuals, and not using any more of a Shard's power.

 

I think this makes sense.  These three are what the Ars Arcanum describes as net-positive magic systems, so I find it interesting that they all follow a similar pattern of two different requirements for gaining access, one part of which involves some form of spiritual cracking.

 

Feruchemy is described as net-neutral, and I think Awakening is too, so it makes sense that these would be different.  I really want to learn more about how Feruchemical abilities originated!   And Hemalurgy is I think the only net-negative system we have seen so far.

 

Returning seems like a different thing from regular Awakening, though.  This isn't just moving existing investiture around from one person to another: you die, lose your regular person-sized Breath, then are brought back with a special god-sized breath in its place.  New investiture is gained which makes this a net-positive event.  Which should mean it works more like the first three?  Hmm...

Edited June 1, 2014 by shawnhargreaves

[Curiosity]

Well, I think that Returning is Endowment Awakening a soul back for a distinct purpose. Endowment gives the person a Divine Breath (i.e. not their own): a Splinter which has its own Intent (the Command). This explains why the memories aren't kept, since memories seem to be tied to the Spiritual Realm. The individual Spirit is overpowered by the Intent of the Divine Breath, so the memories are vague at best until they align with the Breath's/Endowment's Intent. 

 

 

Hemalurgy, IMO, is forced Snapping. You take a giant metal spike, and impale someone with it, ripping apart their Spiritweb so they can access the Spiritweb fragment inside. Of course, it goes rather overboard, leaving empty gaps where other Investitures, like that of Emotional Allomancy, can invade.

 

PorrigeBrick, could you clarify what you mean? Who is Snapping whom in this case? And who is left vulnerable? It seems like you're talking about one person. I'm sure it makes sense. I'm just not getting it. 

 

Edit: Grammar/clarification.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Curiosity

[PorridgeBrick]

Sure. The one snapping is the recipient of the spike– Inquisitor, Kandra, Koloss, etc. In order to accept the Investiture in the spike, they need to be Snapped. This happens manually– the process of being spiked tears a hole in the recipient's spiritweb for the foreign Investiture to fill. But the "holes" in the spiritweb made by the spikes are too big to be filled completely by the small Investiture of the Spike, so big gaps are still left in the recipient's spiritweb where unwanted Investiture can invade.

[Curiosity]

Sure. The one snapping is the recipient of the spike– Inquisitor, Kandra, Koloss, etc. In order to accept the Investiture in the spike, they need to be Snapped. This happens manually– the process of being spiked tears a hole in the recipient's spiritweb for the foreign Investiture to fill. But the "holes" in the spiritweb made by the spikes are too big to be filled completely by the small Investiture of the Spike, so big gaps are still left in the recipient's spiritweb where unwanted Investiture can invade.

Gotcha. Thanks!

[shawnhargreaves]

The one snapping is the recipient of the spike– Inquisitor, Kandra, Koloss, etc. In order to accept the Investiture in the spike, they need to be Snapped. This happens manually– the process of being spiked tears a hole in the recipient's spiritweb for the foreign Investiture to fill.

 

Interesting idea.  I can sorta buy this theory, but I don't think just sticking a piece of metal into someone's physical body would be enough to tear a hole in their spiritweb.  Seems to me that for this to be the case, the spiking would need to be done in a psychologically traumatic way.

 

That certainly fits with the evidence about how Inquisitors are made. Remember the room Kelsier found after Marsh was spiked - blood everywhere, clearly a very ritualized experience that could well be deliberately designed to be as traumatic as possible for the recipient.

 

Same deal for when Vin was spiked as a child - watching her crazy mom kill her baby brother would be traumatic for sure!

 

And Zane was cracked long before he got spiked.

 

But what about Spook?  The scene where he got spiked was physically intense but nowhere near the level of psychological or spiritual stress we see with Mistborn snapping or the various Surgebinders.  The actual spiking seemed like almost an accident at the time, so much so that he barely noticed it among everything else that was going on.  Doesn't seem sufficiently intense to count as a spritweb-hole-tearing event...

[Cstryon]

The damage to the spirt Web happens when the spike is put in the specific bind point. So the spirit Web wouldn't be damaged if the spike wasn't put in the proper place.

I wonder... Regular Scadrian, gets spiked giving them some kind of metal art. Since they are Scadrian, and had not snapped before being spiked, could this be enough to have them snap? The result is gaining the power from the spike, and becoming what ever misting or ferring they should have been?

[signspace13]

The damage to the spirt Web happens when the spike is put in the specific bind point. So the spirit Web wouldn't be damaged if the spike wasn't put in the proper place.

I wonder... Regular Scadrian, gets spiked giving them some kind of metal art. Since they are Scadrian, and had not snapped before being spiked, could this be enough to have them snap? The result is gaining the power from the spike, and becoming what ever misting or ferring they should have been?

Seems ppausible, even likely, I mean what would you think if some random guy with metal eyes walked up to you stabbed you in the chest (or leg or arm or shoulder or even face) then just walked off, sounds pretty traumatic to me. I say someone with metal eyes as I think the only poeple that really know the bind points would be inquisitors. Edited June 2, 2014 by signspace13

[shawnhargreaves]

I wonder... Regular Scadrian, gets spiked giving them some kind of metal art. Since they are Scadrian, and had not snapped before being spiked, could this be enough to have them snap? The result is gaining the power from the spike, and becoming what ever misting or ferring they should have been?

 

This doesn't sound right to me.  With Spook in particular, getting spiked was nowhere near as traumatic as all the other descriptions we have of snapping-like events.

[Cstryon]

Well even if the circumstances aren't obviously traumatic, the very act of getting spiked at a proper bind point is damaging the spirit web. But I guess it might not be traumatic enough for the whole spirit web to snap...

[The Mad Reader]

I think the Hemalurgic spike causes enough damage to the spirit web to grant them the power from the spike, which could be separate from the experience of the spiking being traumatic enough to cause the person to snap and allowing them to access whatever powers they were born with. So someone who was spiked in a similar manner to how Spook was spiked might not also snap, but someone who was attacked in an alley might. 

Of course, it's also possible that there's something inherently traumatic about being spiked that would make anyone snap, regardless of how the traumatic the experience seemed. I don't think we've ever seen anyone gain extra powers after being spiked (beyond what the spike grants them, of course) so it's hard to say.

 

 

Returned

potential = anyone on Nalthis?

activation = die in an especially virtuous way

 

 

I thought that Returned having to die in a virtuous way was the Nalthians' misconception, and what actually happened is that when they died, Endowment showed them what would happen and gave them the choice to go back.

[Fallen Rope]

Maybe the returned dying is what snaps them. Dying will make quite a hole in your spirit web.

Wait!

Words of Radiance spoiler

That's why Szeth will become a surge binder, since he died the hole will mean he can form a Nahel bond to Nightblood!

[Dellexe]

Something interesting is a lot of magics require the Spiritweb to be broken or changed in some way.

Allomancy - Snapping

Surgebinding - Having a broken soul (or however it was worded)

Returning - Dying

Hemalurgy - Having another Spiritweb tacked onto yours

Dakhor monks - horrible pain as your bones twist around

-

The odd one out is Elantrians/the Shaod. They don't seem to require Spiritweb trauma in order to gain their powers.

Though all the people taken by the Shaod seemed to be devoted to something. Raoden to his people, Galladon to his farming, the soldier guy (I forget his name) to his duty, etc. So it seems like when your Intent lines up with Devotion's you are turned into an Elantrian.

 

Edit: Added the Dakhor monks

Edited June 7, 2014 by Kal Dell

[Fallen Rope]

Could Dakhor be end negative. It has killing people to power magic like hemalurgy does. It could be just be end neutral like breath but forced.

[Swimmingly]

That's not the case with Feruchemy - it's genetic, and requires no Snapping. Besides, Elantris is a bit odd, given the giant focus. Maybe you do need a soul crack when the entire force of the Dor isn't knocking at the door.

[shawnhargreaves]

I believe the end-positive vs. end-negative terminology is slightly misleading.  My theory is that the Cosmere as a whole follows the same conservation of energy laws as our universe, and these terms refer to the transfer of energy from one realm to another rather than actual creation or destruction of energy.   Allomancy is end-positive because they move energy from the spiritual to physical realms, while Hemalurgy is end-negative because it takes an existing transfer-of-energy conduit, moves that to a different person, and in the process narrows the conduit so less energy can flow compared to before.

 

Seen this way, Feruchemy is quite different to most other forms of magic because it doesn't require any new energy at all:  it just moves existing physical attributes forward in time  (have less of something now in order to have more of it at a later time of your choosing).

 

It makes sense to me that Feruchemy would not require any traumatic, spiritweb-damaging event to initiate, since it does not require any spiritual -> physical energy transfer.

 

As for AonDor, the Shaod seems too snapping-ish for me to discount some form of spirit cracking being involved.  It's not obvious what exactly that is from the material we see in Elantris, but bear in mind that we only saw the Dor in its broken state there.

[Moogle]

I believe the end-positive vs. end-negative terminology is slightly misleading.  My theory is that the Cosmere as a whole follows the same conservation of energy laws as our universe, and these terms refer to the transfer of energy from one realm to another rather than actual creation or destruction of energy.  

 

You're right in most of this, I think. Brandon has said that the Cosmere follows our universe's laws, like conservation of energy. I don't believe him (Feruchemical iron soundly provides an easy way for infinite amounts of energy), but he's said it.

 

As to the end-positive terminology, the Ars Arcanum of AoL has this to say:

Allomancy is the most common of the three. It is end-positive, according to my terminology, meaning that the practitioner draws in power from an external source.

 

So it doesn't refer to creating energy from nowhere, it just means you get the power from outside yourself. (As opposed to end-neutral, where you gain the power from inside yourself and it returns.)

[Left]

The answer is money. How much money will you pay an author to give you sweet powers.

[shawnhargreaves]

As to the end-positive terminology, the Ars Arcanum of AoL has this to say:

Allomancy is the most common of the three. It is end-positive, according to my terminology, meaning that the practitioner draws in power from an external source.

 

So it doesn't refer to creating energy from nowhere, it just means you get the power from outside yourself. (As opposed to end-neutral, where you gain the power from inside yourself and it returns.)

 

The key to this quote is when the Ars Arcanum says "external source", this is external relative to what?

 

I don't think it can mean external to the practitioner, because then Hemalurgy wouldn't be end-negative.   A spiked individual goes from not having a power to having one, so in their frame of reference this was a positive transaction.   Of course the same thing was extremely negative for the person who got spiked :-)  But the Ars Arcanum is pretty clear that Hemalurgy is end-negative not simply because someone gets killed in the process, but because the net result is a reduction of power.  The spiked person gains a weaker version of whatever ability was stolen.  It only makes sense to label this net result end-negative when looking at some broader scale than just a single magic practitioner.

 

Therefore I think "draws in power from an external source" actually means a source external to the entire physical realm.  Energy is not created from nowhere, but end-positive or end-negative magics move energy from one realm to another, so conservation of energy only applies to the sum of all three realms.

Edited June 8, 2014 by shawnhargreaves

[bridgerald]

I've got a fair bit to say here, so bear with me. This is pretty much all off the cuff and may include things that have been directly contradicted, so forgive me for any of that.

 

 

Interesting idea.  I can sorta buy this theory, but I don't think just sticking a piece of metal into someone's physical body would be enough to tear a hole in their spiritweb.  Seems to me that for this to be the case, the spiking would need to be done in a psychologically traumatic way.

 

That certainly fits with the evidence about how Inquisitors are made. Remember the room Kelsier found after Marsh was spiked - blood everywhere, clearly a very ritualized experience that could well be deliberately designed to be as traumatic as possible for the recipient.

 

Same deal for when Vin was spiked as a child - watching her crazy mom kill her baby brother would be traumatic for sure!

 

And Zane was cracked long before he got spiked.

 

But what about Spook?  The scene where he got spiked was physically intense but nowhere near the level of psychological or spiritual stress we see with Mistborn snapping or the various Surgebinders.  The actual spiking seemed like almost an accident at the time, so much so that he barely noticed it among everything else that was going on.  Doesn't seem sufficiently intense to count as a spritweb-hole-tearing event...

The damage to the spirt Web happens when the spike is put in the specific bind point. So the spirit Web wouldn't be damaged if the spike wasn't put in the proper place.

I wonder... Regular Scadrian, gets spiked giving them some kind of metal art. Since they are Scadrian, and had not snapped before being spiked, could this be enough to have them snap? The result is gaining the power from the spike, and becoming what ever misting or ferring they should have been?

 

I'm pretty sure it's not the "piece of metal" that's tearing the hole in a person's spiritweb. I also don't think the tearing/ snapping has to do with the bind points either. 

I'd definitely put money on it being directly related to the fact that the metal is invested. Having what is essentially a piece of someone's investiture forced into you (at the bind points- they are important, just not for the snapping) would likely be more than enough to "snap" you.

However, I don't recall anyone starting without powers and gaining them through Hemalurgy except for Ol' Ironeyes. Marsh, however, CLEARLY went through some craaazy stuff to become an Inquisitor, which could easily have facilitated him snapping by itself.

 

 

Something interesting is a lot of magics require the Spiritweb to be broken or changed in some way.

Allomancy - Snapping

Surgebinding - Having a broken soul (or however it was worded)

Returning - Dying

Hemalurgy - Having another Spiritweb tacked onto yours

Dakhor monks - horrible pain as your bones twist around

-

The odd one out is Elantrians/the Shaod. They don't seem to require Spiritweb trauma in order to gain their powers.

Though all the people taken by the Shaod seemed to be devoted to something. Raoden to his people, Galladon to his farming, the soldier guy (I forget his name) to his duty, etc. So it seems like when your Intent lines up with Devotion's you are turned into an Elantrian.

 

Edit: Added the Dakhor monks

 

I have two likely ridiculous theories about the Shaod. 

The first is that it is guided by some (more or less) sentient being, perhaps like the mist in Mistborn, the Highstorms in Stormlight, and Returned in Warbreaker. 

The second is that the Dor, being described multiple times as a force trying to push it's way through the Aons, is... "corrosive" to the local's spiritwebs. That, or simply being surrounded(?) by the Dor alters spiritwebs over time.

 

 

The key to this quote is when the Ars Arcanum says "external source", this is external relative to what?

 

I don't think it can mean external to the practitioner, because then Hemalurgy wouldn't be end-negative.   A spiked individual goes from not having a power to having one, so in their frame of reference this was a positive transaction.   Of course the same thing was extremely negative for the person who got spiked :-)  But the Ars Arcanum is pretty clear that Hemalurgy is end-negative not simply because someone gets killed in the process, but because the net result is a reduction of power.  The spiked person gains a weaker version of whatever ability was stolen.  It only makes sense to label this net result end-negative when looking at some broader scale than just a single magic practitioner.

 

Therefore I think "draws in power from an external source" actually means a source external to the entire physical realm.  Energy is not created from nowhere, but end-positive or end-negative magics move energy from one realm to another, so conservation of energy only applies to the sum of all three realms.

 

I see the "external source" as being... Power. For lack of a better word. In Allomancy, You gain net power. You can burn metals to increase eyesight or physical strength. In Feruchemy, It's neutral, because in order to increase something, you have to have decreased it previously and stored it (or vice versa). In Hemalurgy, it's negative.

For example, you have person A and person B who each have 1 Power unit. A takes a chunk of metal (not sure how specific a spike has to be) and stabs it through B. A uses the charged spike on his/herself, giving themselves increased power. However, because Hemalurgy was used, A now has 1.5 units of Power, as opposed to 2. Thus, Hemalurgy is net-negative.

 

 

Sorry this is so long. I've been thinking about this all day, and putting this all down on paper (sort of) has brought up MANY more questions for me. I'll throw them in a new Topic on the forum, so I don't completely derail this thread.

[Curiosity]

Just thought of this: AonDor, unlike Allomancy and Surgebinding, does not channel Investiture directly through one's SpiritWeb. It is channeled through the Aon, the focus itself. So for AonDor, all you need is the ability to "snap" or cut open a portal to the Spiritual Realm so that the Dor (Investiture) can affect the Physical. The shape of that portal determines the effect of the power. 

 

In Surgebinding, however, the power (Investiture, Stormlight) is channeled through the Surgebinder and the effect is determined by the Nahel bond with the spren. In Allomancy, the Investiture is also channeled through the user/Allomancer, this time the effect being determined by the metal burned. 

[Lord Pifferdoo]

In response to Spook getting spikes and how different that was to other instances, do you think that the fact that Spook had already snapped (he was a Tineye, remember?) have something to do with him not having a particularly traumatic spiking?

Also, traumatic does not have to mean a terrible thing. Change can be traumatic to anyone. If you woke up one day and your skin was glowing, your entire life would change, and that can be difficult for some people.

[Pathfinder]

In response to Spook getting spikes and how different that was to other instances, do you think that the fact that Spook had already snapped (he was a Tineye, remember?) have something to do with him not having a particularly traumatic spiking?

Also, traumatic does not have to mean a terrible thing. Change can be traumatic to anyone. If you woke up one day and your skin was glowing, your entire life would change, and that can be difficult for some people.

He got stabbed through the chest by a sword, while burning tin, and then the blade broke off in it. How is that NOT traumatic? lol