PiedPiper

What type of spren is Mya? (OB Spoilers)

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If the theory that Adolin will revive Mya turns out to be true, what type of spren would she be?

I doubt Adolin would turn out to be a Radiant of most of the already-established orders, both because I don't think he fits the characteristics usually attributed to those orders and because so far, it seems Brandon is reconstructing the organization of the pre-Recreance Radiants, for which he'd need at least one of each of the ten -- this is passingly mentioned toward the end of Oathbringer.

Personally, I doubt he'd be a Lightweaver, Bondsmith, Windrunner, Skybreaker, Elsecaller, Truthwatcher, or Dustbringer, although I could see him becoming (in order of my opinion of likelihood) a Stoneward, Willshaper, or an Edgedancer.

What are your opinions?

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9 minutes ago, PiedPeterPiper said:

If the theory that Adolin will revive Mya turns out to be true, what type of spren would she be?

Maya is(was) a Cultivationspren(see OB chapter 102).  He would then be an Edgedancer assuming she was revived.

Edited by Karger
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A Cultivation Spren.

 

Adolin seems to be well on his way to becoming an Edgedancer. 

"I will remember those who have been forgotten."

"I will listen to those who have been ignored."

These are the 2nd and 3rd ideals that Lift has sworn on her journey as an Edgedancer. Brandon has said that not all wordings of oaths given will be the same, however, the general idea behind those oaths are.

 

You could say that Adolin's comment, "Don't forget Sadeas", is a variation on the 2nd ideal of the Edgedancers, with the full ideal being "I will remember those I have killed." I don't know if that will be it but the remembrance of the dead seems to be the core behind it. 

 

Throughout the books there are small little details that are very easy to miss which Brandon has said are caused by certain Connections throughout the cognitive realm, and this could be another one. Is likely to be another, in my opinion.

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Storms -- I need to reread Oathbringer! I'm just bothering you all with questions that have been answered in the books! Thank you for the info.

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Maya's physical description matches up with the Cultivationspren we see in Celebrant.

Although Adolin has annoyed a lot of readers with his vanity, he does display some characteristics of Edgedancers like going around looking after the non-military parts of the Shattered Plains camps. Besides, spren don't necessarily look for paragons of virtue. So he could become an Edgedancer.

Although, a Shardblade Bond wouldn't necessary transform into a Nahel Bond upon her recovery.

Also, I don't want Adolin to become Radiant. I want more non Radiant pivotal characters with significant screentime. Maya's been through a very long ordeal, expecting her to participate in another war, the war in fact, so soon seems a bit much. I know Radiants did have non-combat roles as well but Adolin really doesn't seem suited for those in my opinion.

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3 hours ago, R J said:

I know Radiants did have non-combat roles as well but Adolin really doesn't seem suited for those in my opinion.

One could make the same argument about Dalinar, prior to Oathbringer at least.

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While I agree not everyone should become Radiant, Adolin isn't the person to leave behind. He's too much a target for a Spren Bond and the character arc has clearly been set. We'll continue to get interludes that give us non radiant perspectives, but for now the series is pretty clearly about Radiants and different paths they take to growth. Adolin's potential story towards Radiant hood is one of the more interesting trajectories and a fun exploration of the concept. 

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55 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

One could make the same argument about Dalinar, prior to Oathbringer at least.

i would say it was pretty apparent the trajectory his story was taking, from his Radianthood to the theme of cohesion rather than conflict in his character development from WoK. In particular, the scene where he dug the latrine with his Shardblade comes to mind

Edited by R J
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18 hours ago, PiedPeterPiper said:

Storms -- I need to reread Oathbringer! I'm just bothering you all with questions that have been answered in the books! Thank you for the info.

Worry not. The question was not answered in the books, but was answered via this WOB:

Quote

Questioner

What kind of spren is Maya?

Brandon Sanderson

Maya is a cultivationspren.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

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Awesome -- glad to have not been an idiot.

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35 minutes ago, Knight of Iron said:

Worry not. The question was not answered in the books, but was answered via this WOB:

It was both.  Those are not mutually exclusive.

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22 hours ago, Crimson_Russ said:

You could say that Adolin's comment, "Don't forget Sadeas", is a variation on the 2nd ideal of the Edgedancers, with the full ideal being "I will remember those I have killed." I don't know if that will be it but the remembrance of the dead seems to be the core behind it. 

Humm, but is not what Edgdancers ideals mean. Edgdancers ideals are associated with their Herald personal attributes, in this case Vedel's loving and healing. 

When Lift stated she won't forget the ones who have been forgotten it means she will fight for the ones nobody stands for. In the case of Adolin I don't know how Sadeas would fit on this it's exactly the opposite of the Edgdancers first ideal, Sadeas wasn't forgotten, let one is someone Adolin sworn to protect, he literally killed the man

Indeed, "Don't forget (You Killed) Sadeas" and seems much more related with the Bondsmiths third ideal (understand and accept that you make mistakes and swear to be a better person) 

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6 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

Humm, but is not what Edgdancers ideals mean. Edgdancers ideals are associated with their Herald personal attributes, in this case Vedel's loving and healing. 

When Lift stated she won't forget the ones who have been forgotten it means she will fight for the ones nobody stands for. In the case of Adolin I don't know how Sadeas would fit on this it's exactly the opposite of the Edgdancers first ideal, Sadeas wasn't forgotten, let one is someone Adolin sworn to protect, he literally killed the man

Indeed, "Don't forget (You Killed) Sadeas" and seems much more related with the Bondsmiths third ideal (understand and accept that you make mistakes and swear to be a better person) 

That's a bad example of Adolin being Edgedancery. Him protecting the prostitute in Sadeas's camp. His devotion to his brother everyone ignores. The way he interacts with people ostensibly beneath his notice like the kid he let wear his helmet. His ability to see through to the real Shallan. Those are all within the scope of Edgedancer Oaths. Remember the forgotten. Listen to the voiceless. 

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If Adolin were to become a radiant, i think he would fit best with the Dustbringers or Stonewards. I think people try too hard to fit him as a Edgedancer just because his shardblade is a Cultivationspren deadeye.

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3 hours ago, Lccaseiro58 said:

If Adolin were to become a radiant, i think he would fit best with the Dustbringers or Stonewards. I think people try too hard to fit him as a Edgedancer just because his shardblade is a Cultivationspren deadeye.

It's not trying too hard. It's looking at the story arc as it's been set up. There's enough obvious foreshadowing of the revival of a dead blade and Adolin's bond with his blade has been shown to be something special that the story has to make moves in that direction. In order for him to take on a different Spren he'd have to abandon Maya and that's just not nearly as interesting. There's a lot of Metareasoning there, but part of the fun of this whole prediction thing is understanding the craft behind how Brandon writes.

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1 hour ago, Aminar said:

It's not trying too hard. It's looking at the story arc as it's been set up. There's enough obvious foreshadowing of the revival of a dead blade and Adolin's bond with his blade has been shown to be something special that the story has to make moves in that direction. In order for him to take on a different Spren he'd have to abandon Maya and that's just not nearly as interesting. There's a lot of Metareasoning there, but part of the fun of this whole prediction thing is understanding the craft behind how Brandon writes.

I agree that there's a special bond between Adolin and Maya and in the next book that bond will probably develop.

But, i think that being friendly to your brother or helping someone just because you are passing by is trying a bit too hard to fit him in Edgedancers, and there's the murder of Sadeas that goes against the Edgedancers ideals (loving and healing).

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1 hour ago, Lccaseiro58 said:

I agree that there's a special bond between Adolin and Maya and in the next book that bond will probably develop.

But, i think that being friendly to your brother or helping someone just because you are passing by is trying a bit too hard to fit him in Edgedancers, and there's the murder of Sadeas that goes against the Edgedancers ideals (loving and healing).

Not friendly. But accepting and tolerant of his differences. That's not an easy thing to do or understand with non-neurotypical kids, especially in a time period that has little understanding of what that means. And helping people you pass by is far rarer than you'd think. People are afraid to intervene to help strangers. At least until one person takes that first step. Everyone stands around not sure what to do or averting their gaze. It takes something special to just intervene. 

You also have to look at how Brandon would work on foreshadowing the changes. Small things over time. Signs that he helps the downtrodden(of which sex workers are pretty much the perfect example). 

As for Sadeas, that's where the growth of the Radiant Arc comes in. But killing someone whose tried to kill you and threatened your family, whose caused untold suffering and doesn't value life... Edgedancers don't have to be pacifists. I look at Edgedancers a lot like Social Workers and Therapists. And trust me, there have been people I've met through working in that general area that I have very much wanted to hurt. Parents who shamelessly abandon their kids because they're too much work(and yet they're great with me). Abusers of many stripes. People who rope dumb kids into selling drugs because the kids face lighter consequences. Politicians that write off people because they're poor and "deserve what they have". Loving and Healing doesn't mean you don't get angry. It means you direct that anger towards the people causing suffering. And Sadeas's inability to value life is exactly that. If you love and care for the voiceless Sadeas's is exactly the kind of person that inspires murderous rage. 

Edited by Aminar
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So to be clear, not saying I don't want Adolin to be a radiant. Not saying that I don't want Adolin to be an edgedancer. Not saying I don't think it is possible for Adolin to become a radiant. Not saying Adolin is a bad person. Not saying Adolin is not a good person. 

Whew, ok now to say what I am saying.

I understand where Lcasseirro is coming from regarding the prostitute situation. When Lift swore the oaths she did, (to me) she did not just act. She didn't just save Gawx because he was dying. She came to understand him as a person. His wants. Why he is. Who he is. Someone she literally just met, she put herself in his place. Saw him as a complete person, and then risked her own life to save him. Same thing can be said regarding Stump, The Sleepless, and Nale. In each instance, she got to know and understand the individual on a personal and fundamental level. She understood them so well she realized what they would do and how they would act. She showed a huge degree of empathy and people learning. That is why she was able to realize The Sleepless was not the radiant and found it. That is how she realized Stump was a nacient radiant who didn't even know what she had been doing all that time. Finally that is how she understood Nale and why he was doing what he was doing.

She understood enough to get a mad herald to break down crying and hug her. 

Now conversely lets look at Adolin and the prostitute. A lighteyed officer in Sadeas's camp carries the woman out of the bordello and throws her into the street. She is crying and disheveled. He then goes and kicks her hard in the stomach. Nobody on the street paused (keeping in mind this is Sadeas's camp. Can we say the same would happen in the Kholin's camp?). Mostly they hurried away. Kaladin (not an edgedancer, nor exhibiting any edgeanceriness) moved to protect her. The only reason he was prevented to was three men in blue moved to step between the fallen woman and the officer in green. The sadeas office hesitated, as the clearly high office (gold knots) put his hand on his sword, and the other two held their halberds. The three are then surrounded by 7 in green. Sadeas officer says for them to leave. Adolin says they have legitimate business. Adolin offered to resolve whatever issue there was between the man and the woman. The Sadeas officer spits on Adolin's hand. Adolin summons his shardblade. All the officers in green flee. Adolin helps her up, asks out of curiosity what caused the fight to begin with. The woman explains. Adolin laughs and says they will escort her to the border of the Sadeas camp and suggests she not return. 

Here is the reason I think that is different than Lift. Adolin was never in danger in that entire moment. He is a high prince's son. His men are better trained. Finally, and most importantly, he has a shardblade. So there is no way that could have gone that would have ended poorly for Adolin. No risk. Now I am not saying he had to put himself at risk or in danger to be considered edgedancery. I am just trying to look at the level of investment. Next, true Adolin did ask what happened between them out of curiosity, but it doesn't feel like to me that Adolin truly tried to understand either of the people involved. It was just a Sadeas soldier acting up, and a prostitute getting knocked around. Lead her to the edge so the Sadeas officer cannot get revenge on her, and let her figure things out after that. She will have to figure out where she can go to get new "employment". Find a new place to stay. Leave behind whatever friends or even family she had there. Potentially abandoning someone she was supporting. All of these things are unknowns. All we know, all that was done, was someone was imminently in danger. Adolin stopped the danger, and got her out of that danger. He doesn't even know her name. As a highprince's son there is a whole host of things he could have done beyond helping her out of the immediate danger. Realized the situation she was in that required her to prostitute. Find out skills she has to help her become gainfully employed. Or the opposite direction, maybe understand that perhaps she voluntarily chose that life. Realize the dangers of such a life, even if voluntarily chosen, and seek to find ways to improve the quality of life. Realize a person isn't just the individual. There are people they are connected to. Who that woman worked for, that may pay the price since that officer can no longer reach the prostitute. That the prostitute may have friends, and family. 

These are the things Lift realized and acted on. That was how Lift remembered the forgotten and listened to those ignored. So again, I am not saying what Adolin did was trivial. Not by a long shot. He was a good person when he didn't have to be. He did go out of his way to protect those who could not protect themselves, and made sure she got to safety. We also don't know what he did when they reached the border. He could have done all those things then. Or he could have let her go, wish her well, gave her a few spheres for her time, and then forgot she existed. We don't know. But what we do know, doesn't explicitly scream edgedancer to me when I look to the example we have in Lift. 

But at the end of the day, in regards to placing people into orders, Brandon built it so people could fit into multiple orders on purpose. So to each their own. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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I don't think stepping into danger is the defining part of a Radiant act. I think it's going out of you way to live in a way that exemplifies the ideals. Adolin didn't have to help anyone. He doesn't have to be nice to the people "beneath" him. He does it anyway. It makes him fit Edgedancer as well as any other order and from there he has a cultivation spren expressing an interest in him. That's kind of the whole way you become a Radiant. Get the attention of a Spren.

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1 hour ago, Aminar said:

I don't think stepping into danger is the defining part of a Radiant act. I think it's going out of you way to live in a way that exemplifies the ideals. Adolin didn't have to help anyone. He doesn't have to be nice to the people "beneath" him. He does it anyway. It makes him fit Edgedancer as well as any other order and from there he has a cultivation spren expressing an interest in him. That's kind of the whole way you become a Radiant. Get the attention of a Spren.

Totally respect that that is how you interpret it and I wish you luck with your interpretation! I did mention in my post that I was not saying stepping into danger was the defining part. My point was that I felt the defining part of being an edgedancer in particular was being empathetic, and understanding others fundamentally as I feel was evidenced in the examples I gave from Lift. I personally don't feel the prostitute situation showed that. I feel the prostitute situation could be applied to all the orders theoretically. For example:

 

1. Windrunners - Adolin protected those who could not protect themselves (the prostitute) and protected even those he does not like (the prostitute is someone his father would not approve of). He protected her, and led her away to safety. 

2. Releasers - Adolin was brave to stand up to the sadeas officer when he didn't have to, and was obedient to the codes his father instilled in him by protecting the prostitute

3. Elsecallers - Adolin was wise in how he handled the situations. First he tried for diplomacy, then when outnumbered he brought out his shardblade. He was careful in handling the prostitute by mentioning he was legally allowed there for another errand, thereby avoiding problems between camps, and guiding the prostitute to the edge of camp to prevent retaliation. 

4. Skybreakers - Adolin was Just and Confident in the injustice of the sadeas officer attacking the woman. The officer attacking the woman is against the law. Her spreading rumors about him is not license to physically harm him, and his kicking her would constitute assault. 

5. Stonewards - Adolin was resourceful in using his men and shardblade in resolving the conflict without a single strike, and was dependable by seeing the prostitute outside the camp safely

 

Meanwhile we have WoB that a logical general is just as likely to be a member of the Elsecallers as a scholar. So actions (in my opinion) can be interpreted in a whole host of ways. Which is why I said I wish you luck. Just for myself, the way I see Lift's actions conveying the Edgedancers, is empathy and understanding is how you listen and remember. Not purely the action. Because the action can just as easily be protection. Or Bravery. Or Just. Or Wise. Or Resourceful. 

 

edit: Also to be absolutely positively clear, I am not saying Adolin cannot become an edgedancer nor am I saying he cannot become a radiant. I am just saying that particular instance does not scream edgedancer to me. But totally respect and realize you think differently.

Edited by Pathfinder
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In terms of reviving spren in general, if Adolin figures it out will Dalinar? I wonder what type of spren Oathbringer is. I don't even know if it is possible to bond multiple spren at once. With Shallan it seemed like it was either bond the unmade or keep Pattern. I am very surprised that Adolin hasn't attracted a honor spren with as much time as he spends with the Bridge 4. But that might only go to show that Maya has somehow claimed him already. Like when Syl gets possessive of Kaladin. Sorry for the jumble of thoughts

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21 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

In terms of reviving spren in general, if Adolin figures it out will Dalinar?

Most procedures are replaceable.

21 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

I wonder what type of spren Oathbringer is.

I believe that we don't know.

21 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

don't even know if it is possible to bond multiple spren at once

It is.

Quote

Macen

You've pretty much implied yes [to bonding more than one spren].

Brandon Sanderson

I did not say yes.

Questioner

You implied.  <What about> more than one type of spren?  Different types of spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see what happens.  This is not impossible.  

Footnote: Brandon has also stated humans can theoretically bond multiple spren (http://wob.coppermind.net/events/156/#e2841).
Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

 

21 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

I am very surprised that Adolin hasn't attracted a honor spren with as much time as he spends with the Bridge 4

He does not have the correct aptitude or temperament IMO.

Edited by Karger
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55 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

In terms of reviving spren in general, if Adolin figures it out will Dalinar? 

Personally I theorize Dalinar had already began the process as well. Dalinar in the beginning of Way of Kings when fighting the chasmfiend, felt an urging from Oathbringer like Adolin felt from Maya. In the novel Oathbringer, Dalinar notices a different response from the sword Oathbringer than normal, and the Stormfather indicates that it remembers him and the oaths he has made and broken. So hates him less. Just like Maya beginning to recognize Adolin. Now I have my own theory further along this line that the something extra required (as per Brandon), would be a bondsmith using their connection powers to restore the investiture torn out of Maya. But everyone's got a theory they like regarding that lol

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20 hours ago, Karger said:

It was both.  Those are not mutually exclusive.

I know (and did not say) that they were mutually exclusive. And I was not aware that that is stated in the books anywhere. Upon my glancing through the chapter you provided, Chapter 102 of Oathbringer, I did not so much see the word "cultivationspren" appear. I may have missed it, but it was my third reading of the chapter.

Edited by Knight of Iron
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1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Personally I theorize Dalinar had already began the process as well. Dalinar in the beginning of Way of Kings when fighting the chasmfiend, felt an urging from Oathbringer like Adolin felt from Maya. In the novel Oathbringer, Dalinar notices a different response from the sword Oathbringer than normal, and the Stormfather indicates that it remembers him and the oaths he has made and broken. So hates him less. Just like Maya beginning to recognize Adolin. Now I have my own theory further along this line that the something extra required (as per Brandon), would be a bondsmith using their connection powers to restore the investiture torn out of Maya. But everyone's got a theory they like regarding that lol

It is interesting that Brandon give us the words of how the blade feels when it is given to him by bridge 4 and he returns it to Amaran, yet another gesture of fulfilling oaths. But then we don't see him touch the sword again for the rest of the book. He has it at the end of Oathbringer, but we aren't given any indication of what if any interaction he has had with the blade/spren Oathbringer. Dalinar grows a lot as a radiant in the space in between those two interactions. Not that Dalinar will do this, but get the ok for the Storm Father, bond Oathbringer while saying the first ideal and cause a perpendicularity and you might as well have Adalin there too doing the same thing...Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. 

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