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Mandamon

20200511 - Fall of the Imperium Ch 15,16 - 7574 words - Sub 26,27

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Asked around and people seemed okay with me subbing two chapters again, even though the total is about 7500. If you don't want to read all of it, or not at one time, that's fine with me. Thanks to all for reading!

SUB 24
Chapter 15, Finally, everyone meets everyone else.

SUB 25
Chapter 16, where everyone decides how to fix things...

Previously:
S/E/I arrive in the other facet with their news of the Elg. The Eff and court are there, E has problems with trust, and E/I learn about their folks. The Eff faints shortly thereafter. E battles the voices inside her as they travel to the Ari, and attacks S. In the Ari enclave, I struggles with his image, we learn of the Ari, and E and I use each other's houses for the first time.
M arrives with the society to the Imp and is attacked by Elg. People die and M finds himself with more and more responsibility as they attempt to figure out what's going on. They learn the Eff is also killed, and M makes clever use of a portal to save his life.
Ri and co arrive on HD's homeworld, gather themselves, then engage the Elg in the Imp. They barely escape, and find out where other refugees have gone.
S/E/I learn more about the Ari and find there's only one hammock in the bedroom. They all attempt to pass through the wall, but are stopped by the Elg. S devises a new plan and they try again, with disastrous results.
M leads his posse on a hunt, without success, and meets up with R and her posse. Many connections are made.
E lives as an Elg for a few days and learns how they work. She also wins over the voices inside. I, meanwhile, dons the diadem and learns the history of the Eff.
 

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On 11/05/2020 at 0:17 PM, Mandamon said:

Finally, everyone meets everyone else.

LOL, excellent! Well up for this.

Chapter 15

(page 1)

- "the tip of the procedural..." - This is an excellent phrase, but I really, really wanted it to be iceberg, because it's almost always the tip of the iceberg in this form, and my mind had already assumed iceberg, and was cheering, when I got to mountain.

- "nearly one hundred thousand representatives" - Wait, what?!?!?! Where did all these come from?

- "sometimes takes many months" - but this is the case with IRL politics, and there are nowhere nears that number of bodies involved. Delay is an function of the process too, not just the number of bodies involved.

- Hang on, there is some tricksy POV shenanigans going on here, m'thinks.

(page 3)

- "Yet another person to locate" - But no, surely they have just reduced the numbers they need to locate. This don't make sense to me.

- "missed you" - Awww! Emotions, excellent!

- "Everyone ignored him" - :angry:

(page 8)

- "tutor both of you" - Nice moment here, of acceptance. I've always liked Car, but he shows real sensitivity here. It's a very satisfying moment.

- "we are nearly flush with the new happenings" - I don't understand what he means.

(page 9)

- "glistening on his head" - Awesome moment. BOOM! That is some reveal.

(page 10)

- "captive by the S" - But not specifically the Sa, surely, but the LC?

(page 11)

- I like the thought that there needs to be a discussion between Ri and Man, BUT, I don't see that Ri has any right to expect to lead anything. Surely, Man is her superior, without question?

(page 14)

- "who had accompanied him, all of them standing on the desolate plain" - Well, more than one is dead, are they not? And all the ones that are here are standing on the plain. There's something off in this wording, I feel.

- "I suspect we may have enough to mount a successful attack" - This seems like presumption to me. It feels premature, before the information has been examined.

(page 19)

- I'm confused as to why Man talks about building the Soc, but says nothing about rebuilding the Council, when he, effectively and practically, is the head of the Council. Surely that is his primary responsibility. I does not seem in character to me that he only talks about the SoTH. Surely he is not suggesting that he SoTH replaces the Council?!

(page 20)

- "when not on it" - I know he was away from the Imp, but he was still on the Council, surely?

(page 22)

- "It was validation, for his work and for his life" - I'm not keen on this. His work, fine, but not validation of his life, surely? His life would be plenty validated by all that he has done, regardless of him being a member of SoTH or not. I'd be more comfortable with this being 'validation of his life's work'. But not his entire actual existence.

- "sustained kiss" - Aw, this is a big satisfying moment for all us Ori fans, the whole thing: the invitation, Ri's reaction. Very rewarding.

(page 23)

- I'm not greatly fond of the closing words. I see how it works as the end of a chapter, and I'm pleased with this as a chapter, but I'm not sure if the ending is quite as satisfying as much of the rest of it. I'm not saying rip it up, but I think maybe it needs tweaked in the landing.

Chapter 16 

(page 24)

- Page numbers may get a little squiffy from now on. The second chapter came up in a weird font and I found it hard to read when not in Times New Roman, so, I changed it.

- "but people of all species" - But maji are not a species.

(page 25)

- There is more than one mention of 'the group', but it's unclear what group is being referred to as there are more than one group represented here.

(page 26)

- "I do love you" - I am enjoying the openness between them, and it feels real and reasonable, given the situation, and her thought about how many have been lost. I just wonder if we need a seed of it in her last POV?

- "And here, no one has helped" - I really like the way his concern for his charge is played out here. nicely done.

(page 28)

- "Z and P were planning" - I don't know who these are. Maybe I did once, but no way am I going to remember after... how may pages? "They were the leaders of the remaining A" - Where? When? This doesn't help enough, I'm afraid. "They could be anywhere" - Nope, I'm still all at sea. This was in the Imp, I take it, since there is reference to the Eff being killed, but I can't place these two at all.

- "Could one of them be here now?" - For me, this comes out of nowhere. We've been through fifteen chapters now, and I'm convinced there has been no reference to these characters in that time. Also, this feels like a completely new threat and a new plot thread. Neither of these people are with Re, I think, over in his POV? So, who are they, what is their agenda, what are they doing, and why are they brought up now? I'm not feeling this at all. It's not been discussed before in any of In and En's scenes, has it? Certainly not in discussion with S. Arrgh. I'm thrown by this. What does this have to do with the El?

- "It is possible the assassins also have R" - But I still don't identify with those names. There's Na??-something.

(page 29)

- "in a rare display of empathy" - Huh? This is the opposite of empathy, surely? I took it to mean empathy for Ke, who is the one that is hurting. Then Ri shoes empathy for Ke, by almost going to him. What Ori shows, IMO, is not empathy, but more like prescience. "speaking to him later" - okay, that is empathy, but it's too for from the reference to it, IMO, which is associated with him holding her back.

(page 30)

- "There it was again" - 'it' here is vague, IMO.

- "And the El" - Seems to me that he El is the most pressing and important thing, and that the other species are secondary, although still interesting. Just not a pressing, urgent and life-threatening.

(page 31)

- "When I became an El" - BOOM! Great reveal, but I still think it's more likely they would discuss this first. I know it render the discussion about the other facet's species less impactful, but I feel it makes sense.

(page 36)

- "There are things that need to be said between us" - ooh, a secret enclave: what a great way to finish the chapter. I am all ears.

Overall 

Yes, good chapter. I enjoyed that. I thought it brought things together rather well. Some nice character moments along the way, and some tense / satisfying reveals. No overriding gripes. I think it brings the tension well at the end by revealing the existence of the other being and forming a (potential) link to the THM. I am keen to keep reading.

Some LBLs sent by email.

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I liked having everyone together, and even though there were so many characters, I didn't get confused about what was going on.

Seeing E and I arrive through R's eyes was great. The slow reveal of the diadem was well done too.

I was a little surprised at the lingering fear R still had of the Ari, even when she knew it was I. It is hard to gauge her arc over this book and the others since there has been so much time between me those chapter and these.

I loved how star struck O seemed at being invited to the Society. That was adorable! 

In that same scene where R was talking with G and K, I felt like I was missing so much information that was probably in some of the shorter pieces set in this world. There seemed such a history between R and G that I didn't fully know about or remember. With O and K, there was also a feeling of history, but I felt more in the loop with that since I read the story where young O had his misadventure with the hive. 

I'm wondering how the second chapter would seem from M's POV.

R's POV is lacking some reactions in it.

I went back and re-read page 27. E said she they needed to talk about the Ari in the other facet before talking about the Blessed assassins ones. But then there was a paragraph of R thinking about the diadem, and a shorter one about her fighting her prejudices for the Ari. The next one was E talking about the Ari assassins. On my first read, I thought she never actually said anything about the good Ari. On my second read, I guess I figured out the "Then she told them about..." implied she had told them about the Ari in the other facet. It felt like R's mind was just wandering and she wasn't really paying attention.  

As much as I liked being in R's POV to start, I really wanted to see M hearing about E's experience as an Elg. In general, I had been expecting the information she was able to give about that to be a big deal, to be particularly exciting to O and especially M, but the big reveal just kind of fell flat.

"It took several minutes to calm down the flurry of questions..." This gives a vague sense of how crowd reacts, but I don't really care about the crowd. I want specific character reactions. I really want M's reaction, but I'd settle for more reaction from R. What does she think of her apprentice having spent time as one of the E? I want to know that right away, before we get to any mention of the crowd.

P is the first one to speak. I don't even fully remember who P is. That is followed by O seeming defeated when I though he'd be fascinated. 

And they move on, rather quickly, to more general strategy. I was expecting this reveal to have more impact, but it felt brushed over or rushed, which left me disappointed. 

While I had no problem following the planning that came next, it did seem to be a flurry of it, and as it got closer to end, was purposely leaving out details, I'm assuming so the reader is surprised later, to create suspense. I keep going back and forth between whether or not I like it as is or think it needs to be shortened. 

Overall, I'm excited to have so many characters together and am excited to find out what happens next. 

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Thanks to @Robinski and @shatteredsmooth!

18 hours ago, Robinski said:

- "nearly one hundred thousand representatives" - Wait, what?!?!?! Where did all these come from?

I upped this number based on some more detailed calculations. I think it used to be around 60k in an earlier draft of Seeds.

18 hours ago, Robinski said:

Hang on, there is some tricksy POV shenanigans going on here, m'thinks.

Hmm...where are you seeing this?

18 hours ago, Robinski said:

- "Everyone ignored him" - :angry:

Poor O.

19 hours ago, Robinski said:

- "captive by the S" - But not specifically the Sa, surely, but the LC?

Oops, yes. will change.

19 hours ago, Robinski said:

- I like the thought that there needs to be a discussion between Ri and Man, BUT, I don't see that Ri has any right to expect to lead anything. Surely, Man is her superior, without question?

Yes, I think I need to expand this a bit. In my head, I was imagining since M is the only one left from the Council, he'd be the new head, but then R was recently on the Council, demoted for sketchy reasons, so is a logical choice to help him out and/or be another voice in charge.

14 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

I was a little surprised at the lingering fear R still had of the Ari, even when she knew it was I. It is hard to gauge her arc over this book and the others since there has been so much time between me those chapter and these.

Looking back at Facets, I think this still reasonable based on the time passed...

19 hours ago, Robinski said:

This seems like presumption to me. It feels premature, before the information has been examined.

Fair enough.

19 hours ago, Robinski said:

- I'm confused as to why Man talks about building the Soc, but says nothing about rebuilding the Council, when he, effectively and practically, is the head of the Council. Surely that is his primary responsibility. I does not seem in character to me that he only talks about the SoTH. Surely he is not suggesting that he SoTH replaces the Council?!

I may need to clarify this. I think there's some more discussion of this in a later chapter, but he's contemplating some changes in structure...

19 hours ago, Robinski said:

I'd be more comfortable with this being 'validation of his life's work'. But not his entire actual existence.

Noted!

14 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

In that same scene where R was talking with G and K, I felt like I was missing so much information that was probably in some of the shorter pieces set in this world. There seemed such a history between R and G that I didn't fully know about or remember.

Yep, a lot of this comes from Society, and what their relationship was like after that. I hoping it works just because it seems like there is a lot of history, even if people don't know it.

14 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

I loved how star struck O seemed at being invited to the Society. That was adorable! 

Cool!

14 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

I'm wondering how the second chapter would seem from M's POV.

 

15 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

As much as I liked being in R's POV to start, I really wanted to see M hearing about E's experience as an Elg. In general, I had been expecting the information she was able to give about that to be a big deal, to be particularly exciting to O and especially M, but the big reveal just kind of fell flat.

Ah, interesting! Yes, I can try this out to see if it works.

 

19 hours ago, Robinski said:

Page numbers may get a little squiffy from now on. The second chapter came up in a weird font and I found it hard to read when not in Times New Roman, so, I changed it.

Sorry! Forgot to change the font before submitting.

19 hours ago, Robinski said:

I am enjoying the openness between them, and it feels real and reasonable, given the situation, and her thought about how many have been lost. I just wonder if we need a seed of it in her last POV?

Entirely possible. I'll look into it.

20 hours ago, Robinski said:

- "Z and P were planning" - I don't know who these are.

Hmmm...these are the other two blessed who E works with in Facets. They also show up in Re's chapters. I'll see if I can seed the names in other chapters to make sure they're in the reader's mind. They're relatively big side characters in Facets.

21 hours ago, Robinski said:

and I'm convinced there has been no reference to these characters in that time.

They were in one chapter and referred to not by name in other chapters, so I can see this. I'll add some more references.

16 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

This gives a vague sense of how crowd reacts, but I don't really care about the crowd. I want specific character reactions. I really want M's reaction, but I'd settle for more reaction from R. What does she think of her apprentice having spent time as one of the E? I want to know that right away, before we get to any mention of the crowd.

Good catch. Will emote more!!

16 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

And they move on, rather quickly, to more general strategy. I was expecting this reveal to have more impact, but it felt brushed over or rushed, which left me disappointed. 

Ah. I can add more reaction.

16 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

and as it got closer to end, was purposely leaving out details, I'm assuming so the reader is surprised later, to create suspense. I keep going back and forth between whether or not I like it as is or think it needs to be shortened

I think this was from me anticipating the reader would be tired of all this and ready to move on, but maybe that's not the case...

21 hours ago, Robinski said:

Yes, good chapter. I enjoyed that. I thought it brought things together rather well. Some nice character moments along the way, and some tense / satisfying reveals. No overriding gripes. I think it brings the tension well at the end by revealing the existence of the other being and forming a (potential) link to the THM. I am keen to keep reading.

Cool. I was a little concerned these two chapters were too redundant. Just gotta see if I can stick the landing!

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Overall

Some good movement, and I was well entertained. Mostly emotion comments below (per usual), and some thoughts about how they plan to fight the El when they can't communicate or seem to actually beat them. I find this book is moving faster than the last one, which felt like it took far too long to get to the meat of the action. Here, we are in it from the start, and I am very happy with that. Though I always feel like R's chapters lack the dynamics of the apprentice chapters, here at least I found her interactions with Or more believable.

 

As I go

- pg 1: "...sounded like the Net, but wasn't" is a great end line

- pg 8: ah yes! The sibling explanation!! Although I think I wanted a bit of a longer explanation. It's just a sentence or so, and it'd be a good time to give a few more on how the instance thing works

- pg 14: I definitely wanted less...idle chat and more reactions. The information the twins gave was fantastic, and I wanted to really revel in the reactions. Everything felt really muted though. There'd be a brief flare of OMG and then it would just die back down. I think I want more time with the reactions, but with the strong reactions, if that makes sense

- I think the pages between 14-18 could be cut. Here at 18 we are only just starting to get to the purpose of this beat, it feels like

- pg 22: ah, this interaction between O and R is more believable

- pgs 14-23: the purpose of this beat was to invite O to the two house society, yes? It seems like that could be done more quickly, and as part of a larger chapter arc. Here it seems like a lot of chatting during a crisis. They have TWO Ari with them, things are eating the crystal, and everyone is very calm and inviting O to join secret societies 'when this is all over'...but much like with COVID, aren't they really unsure if it ever WILL be all over? I think it's a weird time for them not to be stressed out

- pg 23: I love the phrase 'affordable morals' and would like it on a t-shirt

- pg 25: simply because you liked adventure and—” really wanted him to say 'simply because you liked adventure and head crests.'

- pg 25: That's a powerful paragraph from R there, and much more in-character. If you cut this line: Maybe the loss of so many lives was making her sappy. It'll land perfectly

- pg 25: he responds in kind....and she has no emotions about it! EMOTE PLS

- pg 31: I think for this general discussion/download to work, the reader needs to get some new information along with the old. It isn't all being recapped, which is great, but it is also a lot of yes we know now pls get to movement. If there was some new stuff sprinkled in, that would keep my attention really sharp

- pg 33: wait, can't pixies fly??

- pg 34: ah okay, we got to them

- pg 35: they have a plan but I'm not sure what it is. They are going to enlist beings that can fly. Check. But what then? It doesn't sound like a plan so much as the start of a plan. I'm also surprised they aren't discussing why the net can't properly translate what the El are saying.

 

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1 hour ago, Mandamon said:

help him out and/or be another voice in charge.

That's fair. It just sounded to me like she expected equally billing.

1 hour ago, Mandamon said:

he's contemplating some changes in structure...

Hmm, very interesting, but I got no sense of that before this statement, so it came from the blue, somewhat.

1 hour ago, Mandamon said:
18 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

I loved how star struck O seemed at being invited to the Society. That was adorable! 

Cool!

Agree, adorable.

1 hour ago, Mandamon said:

They're relatively big side characters in Facets.

I just couldn't remember the names. I don't think they stuck. I suppose some WRS, but than it legitimately could be a little while between reading Book 2 and 3.

1 hour ago, Mandamon said:

They were in one chapter and referred to not by name in other chapters, so I can see this. I'll add some more references.

I mean, it would help me, but I'm only one voice (yes, loud, I know, but still only one :rolleyes: ).

1 hour ago, Mandamon said:

I was a little concerned these two chapters were too redundant.

Not at all, IMO. Good chapters that give the reader emotional rewards :D 

1 hour ago, Mandamon said:
23 hours ago, Robinski said:

Hang on, there is some tricksy POV shenanigans going on here, m'thinks.

Hmm...where are you seeing this?

I'll come back to you on this. Presently yawning my head off. Time for bed, said Zebedee.

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I don't have much to add. I agree with most of the previous notes on the chapter. It was nice to see them finally all together. And I dont know why but the HD always makes me feel like hes suspect. He didnt even say/do much and I'm like, "HE'S a spy!" Somethings wrong with me lol.

 

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10 hours ago, CherishLarain said:

I don't have much to add. I agree with most of the previous notes on the chapter. It was nice to see them finally all together. And I dont know why but the HD always makes me feel like hes suspect. He didnt even say/do much and I'm like, "HE'S a spy!" Somethings wrong with me lol.

 

Lol--that's funny because HD is the character I write most openly. They have really no agenda at all, no apprentice, no attachment to anyone except their art, and they just try to do the right thing. Maybe that's why they seem suspicious!

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Posted (edited)

As per usual, did not read the previous comments.

Chapter 15:

Pg 1, introduction: Why do I feel like I have read this particular passage before? Getting deja vu.

Pg 2, "Their arms were outstretched to the Ari" Awwwww!!!

Pg 3, " there were more important matters at hand" Like the Apocalypse. As much as I wish they had the resources/ability/knowledge to look for R, we are not watching Saving Private Ryan.

Pg 3, "I would greatly like to be speaking with my apprentice again." Poor ol' bird.

Pg 5, "had not removed his hood," Someone get this Ari a hat, pronto.

Pg 10, "She gestured to I. "We can..." Forgotten quotation mark between I and We.

Pg 11, "Ari living, hmmm, peaceably..." Forgotten quotation mark at beginning of sentence. 

Pg 16, "estate were than better this"

Pg 17, "That sound was very familiar." Elg!? Here!!!!????

Pg 17, "riding his mechanical chair" Whew! I had thought that the Elg were mostly silent, but the click-click of many legs would have suited them...

Pg 22, " His crest was spiking in all directions" I am thoroughly enjoying this chapter as everyone comes together and begins revealing their secrets. It is very satisfying.

Chapter 16:

Coming tomorrow! 

Pg 25/1, introduction, "with affordable morals." And portals, not doubt.

Pg 25/1, " how they would strike back" I am excited. It is all coming together! There will hopefully be a plan! 

Pg 26/2, "I love you" Awwwww.

Pg 29/4, "they are to be faster at changing form than you are" And have looser morals, and are a little unstable mentally. Great folks to have running around unsupervised and uncontrolled.

Pg 31/6, "any information with which may be of" 

Pg 32/7, " they looked like difference different species"

Pg 33/8, "him. "That is enough reason" Missing quotation mark between "him" and "That."

Pg 33/8, "Both had signaled they were female for this meeting." I am so excited to have everyone together, including HD and TD. I am very fond of this species.

Pg 35/10, " they can’t do is fly" Wait a minute...aren't there System Beasts that can fly? Like a beetle? From the species that lives on the top of the Nether??? 

Pg 35/10, "have a new ally in the G" Yes! Oh my goodness, are we going to get an air force together!?!?!? Yeeeeeees! Why did I not think of this earlier!

Pg 38/13, "there is another hand against us" Master Memory Wipe!

These were both such fun, satisfying chapters! To quote Hannibal from the A-Team:

I Love It When a Plan Comes Together! Col. Hannibal Smith | Tv ...

Edited by Snakenaps
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Posted (edited)

I loved getting some concrete answers to burning questions in these chapters!

I only noticed two things:

I may be wrong, but the beginning of the 15th chapter seemed like God-mode POV. Just the first few sentences.

In chapter 16, paragraph starting, "The first one did attack and kill the E...". The third sentence is missing opening parenthesis. 

it was really nice to have "Instan..." and "System Bs" explained.

This might be part of the suspense, but at the end of Chapter 16 I find myself wondering why any one species would be willing to throw themselves at a threat if all the others are just going to sit back and hide. There would have to be some pretty heavy bribery or manipulation at play.

Thanks for sharing!

 

Edited by Sarah B
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2 hours ago, Sarah B said:

I find myself wondering why any one species would be willing to throw themselves at a threat if all the others are just going to sit back and hide. There would have to be some pretty heavy bribery or manipulation at play.

Ooh. Interesting thought. I am minded of the Sat and their role in hunting the Ar 'out of existence' in the past, a task they were only too pleased to undertake.

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Thanks @Snakenaps and @Sarah B!

On 5/16/2020 at 10:31 PM, Snakenaps said:

Pg 3, " there were more important matters at hand" Like the Apocalypse. As much as I wish they had the resources/ability/knowledge to look for R, we are not watching Saving Private Ryan.

Glad this seems reasonable that they're not going after him.

On 5/16/2020 at 10:31 PM, Snakenaps said:

Pg 22, " His crest was spiking in all directions" I am thoroughly enjoying this chapter as everyone comes together and begins revealing their secrets. It is very satisfying.

Nice. Seems like this one is working.

On 5/16/2020 at 10:31 PM, Snakenaps said:

Pg 25/1, introduction, "with affordable morals." And portals, not doubt.

Exactly. This whole epigraph is a reference to events that set up the first story in Merchants and Maji!

On 5/16/2020 at 10:31 PM, Snakenaps said:

Pg 25/1, " how they would strike back" I am excited. It is all coming together! There will hopefully be a plan!

*fingers crossed* hoping to pull this off correctly!

On 5/16/2020 at 10:31 PM, Snakenaps said:

Pg 35/10, " they can’t do is fly" Wait a minute...aren't there System Beasts that can fly? Like a beetle? From the species that lives on the top of the Nether??? 

It looks like a beetle, but can't fly. However you find out more about the top of the Nether soon...

On 5/16/2020 at 10:31 PM, Snakenaps said:

These were both such fun, satisfying chapters! To quote Hannibal from the A-Team

Cool. These chapters came across even stronger than I was hoping, which is great!

7 hours ago, Sarah B said:

I may be wrong, but the beginning of the 15th chapter seemed like God-mode POV. Just the first few sentences.

Hmmm...it does sound like that. It's technically in R's POV, but I'll see if I can make that clearer.

7 hours ago, Sarah B said:

it was really nice to have "Instan..." and "System Bs" explained.

Glad these are explained to your satisfaction!

4 hours ago, Robinski said:
7 hours ago, Sarah B said:

I find myself wondering why any one species would be willing to throw themselves at a threat if all the others are just going to sit back and hide. There would have to be some pretty heavy bribery or manipulation at play.

Ooh. Interesting thought. I am minded of the Sat and their role in hunting the Ar 'out of existence' in the past, a task they were only too pleased to undertake.

Interested to see how everyone likes chapter 20!

Thanks again!

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