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Rock's shard's


Cope97

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4 hours ago, Cope97 said:

there can be only 3 Bondsmith's

Yep. And we're pretty sure their Spren are The Sibling, The Stormfather, and The Nightwatcher. Rock is uniquely suited to be a mediating figure between the Singers and the Humans. If he's King of the Horneaters he's leader of the people with the most mixed heritage out of anyone. That makes him a great Bondsmith candidate. He is a form of unity between three disparate peoples. (Humans, Singers, their cast off descendants who were chased into the mountains when they were probably less human appearing/a more mixed society than they are now.) 

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On 5/11/2020 at 2:00 PM, Aminar said:

And we have no idea if that means he gets an honorspren. Being a Radiant has a lot to do with what motivates you. Rock isn't exactly motivated by a desire to throw himself in harms way to protect people the way Teft or Kaladin are. 

I disagree. His methods are different with refusing to fight, but he's always been willing to put himself in harms way to help his team. From early on being one of the few to support Kaladin earning the possible ire of the rest of bridge 4, to donating his rations to feed the injured. Losing out on half of his already stingy food portion when you're subjected to the physically trying bridgerun definitely can be risky beyond just the discomfort of being hungry.

 

There's also the time when they are approaching the bridgerun where Kaladin plans to distract the Parshendi with their bones, his response is, "This thing you are doing, it will be dangerous?" when Kaladin answers "very", he says "can I come with you?". 

He even takes up the bow to protect Kaladin, which breaks his vow of not fighting. 

Not willing to fight to protect is not the same as not being willing to risk himself to protect. If anything it's even braver putting yourself at risk unarmed. 

 

Edited by cfphelps
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Although you make a  good point about Rock's mixed heritage, he is already on his way to being a Wind Runner as a Squire of Kaladin's. It wouldn't make sense for him to abruptly change to a different type of Radiant. If we get a Novella for him, he will likely level up when he decides to take on protecting his clan/nation. Just my thoughts

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12 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

Although you make a  good point about Rock's mixed heritage, he is already on his way to being a Wind Runner as a Squire of Kaladin's. It wouldn't make sense for him to abruptly change to a different type of Radiant. If we get a Novella for him, he will likely level up when he decides to take on protecting his clan/nation. Just my thoughts

We know zero about what Squire means. Bridge 4 is a diverse group. Having them all run Windrunner would be both less interesting and counter to the way Radiants have been portrayed. He's on his way to being a Radiant. But we have no idea beyond that. It's an assumption that Squires become the same order they were a squire to and one that's weaker than other options. 

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18 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

I think it's also worth mentioning that Rock is now Nuatoma for his family/clan since all his older brothers died.

If all his older brother where dead he would be a farmer, only one older brother died,

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1 hour ago, Frustration said:

If all his older brother where dead he would be a farmer, only one older brother died,

Rock has conversation with his wife in Oathbringer that implies that 2 more of Rock's older brothers are now dead and Rock is avoiding some responsibility.

     "What of Tifi and Sinaku'a" she asked him.

     "Dead," he whispered. "They raised weapons in vengeance."

     She put her hand to her lips. She wore a glove on her safehand in deference to silly Vorin traditions. "Then you -"

     "I am a chef now," Lumanor said, firm.

     "But -"

     "I cook, Tuaka."

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31 minutes ago, SanderFan69 said:

Rock has conversation with his wife in Oathbringer that implies that 2 more of Rock's older brothers are now dead and Rock is avoiding some responsibility.

     "What of Tifi and Sinaku'a" she asked him.

     "Dead," he whispered. "They raised weapons in vengeance."

     She put her hand to her lips. She wore a glove on her safehand in deference to silly Vorin traditions. "Then you -"

     "I am a chef now," Lumanor said, firm.

     "But -"

     "I cook, Tuaka."

Third son cooks, perhaps more brothers died, but at least two older brothers are alive.

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21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Third son cooks, perhaps more brothers died, but at least two older brothers are alive.

You're missing the implication. Rock doesn't want the responsibility. He doesn't want to admit his brothers died while he stood to the side. His wife is saying he needs to go take on his responsibilities and he hasn't/won't. He has things to work through, realizations to make. You know, a character arc.

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Just now, Aminar said:

You're missing the implication. Rock doesn't want the responsibility. He doesn't want to admit his brothers died while he stood to the side. His wife is saying he needs to go take on his responsibilities and he hasn't/won't. He has things to work through, realizations to make. You know, a character arc.

Why accept that he moved to cook, but not to farmer? That makes no sense.

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1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Why accept that he moved to cook, but not to farmer? That makes no sense.

Because he moved from 4th son straight to Nuatoma(And after killing Amaram, a position where he'll likely be responsible for not just his Peak, but all the peaks). His oldest Brother, the Nuatoma, was killed by Sadeas in a duel for shards. His next two oldest brothers died trying to avenge their Nuatoma. Rock was brought on as a cook, fed Sadeus some Chull dung, and was made a birdgeman. He's supposed to be in charge of his tribe but doesn't want to(likely because he doesn't feel worthy/has guilt over the deaths of his brothers. He's barely acknowledged their deaths. He's in an avoidant place and possibly the most deeply broken of Bridge 4.)

He's accepted his place as Bridge 4's cook because it's safe. But to move up to leader of his people is a much bigger jump.

Edited by Aminar
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Just now, Aminar said:

Because he moved from 4th son straight to Nuatoma. His oldest Brother, the Nuatoma, was killed by Sadeas in a duel for shards. His next two oldest brothers died trying to avenge their Nuatoma. Rock was brought on as a cook, fed Sadeus some Chull dung, and was made a birdgeman. He's supposed to be in charge of his tribe but doesn't want to(likely because he doesn't feel worthy/has guilt over the deaths of his brothers. He's barely acknowledged their deaths.

The Nuatoma was his cousin(I think could have been his uncle), also he was a warrior at first so him becoming a cook means at least one brother died that he accepted in the way your speaking. Also why would he reject his place, but also refuse the place he was at? That just doesn't make sense.

4 minutes ago, Aminar said:

 He's barely acknowledged their deaths. He's in an avoidant place and possibly the most deeply broken of Bridge 4.)

Because he doesn't talk about it? So we have an addict, a man who almost, ah, went skydiving with no parachute, one of the last members of an entire nation, and the dude that doesn't talk about his dead siblings is the most broken. He is struggling, I will give you that but, to say that he is the most broken is rather dismissive of the other members of Bridge 4.

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To Aminar's point about Rock being broken. In the Way of Kings, it is made pretty obvious that Rock has some form of weapons training. But refuses to use weapons. Could it be that he somehow was (which ever son was the warrior), and killed an older brother in an accident due to his arrogance. And now he is loathed to do any fighting. A promise that is broken when he saved Kaladin's lives. Rock may swear oaths more similar to Teft than Kaladin. Wouldn't that be something if he swore oaths 2-4 in succession and was the first Windrunner to manifest plate. And then said, "tis easy" and laughed. 

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3 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

 (which ever son was the warrior)

4th son and down can be warriors, there could be other rules though, Rock doesn't use weapons because he is the cook now, and is 'too important to waste on war'

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30 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Nuatoma was his cousin(I think could have been his uncle), also he was a warrior at first so him becoming a cook means at least one brother died that he accepted in the way your speaking. Also why would he reject his place, but also refuse the place he was at? That just doesn't make sense.

Because he doesn't talk about it? So we have an addict, a man who almost, ah, went skydiving with no parachute, one of the last members of an entire nation, and the dude that doesn't talk about his dead siblings is the most broken. He is struggling, I will give you that but, to say that he is the most broken is rather dismissive of the other members of Bridge 4.

You're really not reading between the lines at all. Not every word spoken is true and Rock has been more closed off than most. The Nuatoma was not his cousin, he just hasn't been willing to admit the truth of where he should be. He's been obfuscating everything about his story, but it's all there. Pretty obviously there. And yes. He's the most broken, not because of how bad what happened is, but by how he's handled it. Everybody has different levels of resiliency. Teft has stepped up to his responsibilities better than Rock and is more aware of his shortcomings. Rlain hasn't given in to the depression the Listener's have been shown to have. Rock has lied. He's avoided conversations and obfuscated his past. He's refused responsibility and avoided taking on more. He's let his failures define his life and lost all trust in himself. And he's done that at a time where people need him badly. That's why he's the most broken. Not because he's been hit the hardest, but because he hasn't let himself start healing. He hides a lot of it behind bluster, but that's in many ways the biggest sign he's not moving forwards. 

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6 minutes ago, Aminar said:

You're really not reading between the lines at all. Not every word spoken is true and Rock has been more closed off than most. The Nuatoma was not his cousin, he just hasn't been willing to admit the truth of where he should be. He's been obfuscating everything about his story, but it's all there. Pretty obviously there. And yes. He's the most broken, not because of how bad what happened is, but by how he's handled it. Everybody has different levels of resiliency. Teft has stepped up to his responsibilities better than Rock and is more aware of his shortcomings. Rlain hasn't given in to the depression the Listener's have been shown to have. Rock has lied. He's avoided conversations and obfuscated his past. He's refused responsibility and avoided taking on more. He's let his failures define his life and lost all trust in himself. And he's done that at a time where people need him badly. That's why he's the most broken. Not because he's been hit the hardest, but because he hasn't let himself start healing. He hides a lot of it behind bluster, but that's in many ways the biggest sign he's not moving forwards. 

So you measure being broken by how much they heal? doesn't really hold up if I atomize a rock and start piecing it back together is it less broken than a table I scratched? Also if his brothers raised weapons against Sadeas, then they where 4th sons or below, and we still end up with cook/farmer Rock.

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On 5/12/2020 at 2:03 PM, Frustration said:

So you measure being broken by how much they heal? doesn't really hold up if I atomize a rock and start piecing it back together is it less broken than a table I scratched? Also if his brothers raised weapons against Sadeas, then they where 4th sons or below, and we still end up with cook/farmer Rock.

Again you're being over literal. People break societal prescripts in anger all the time. Rock's adherence those rules is part of him being broken. He let his brothers go to their death. He didn't help. He feels immensely guilty. And yes, you Guage broken mental health by how long it takes them to heal and how much they work to heal. That's the whole mental health field. Some people are broken by the death of a family member. Some broken by being bullied in school. And some undamaged by genocide. Resiliency is unpredictable. That's the human condition. 

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On 5/12/2020 at 2:09 PM, Frustration said:

The Nuatoma was his cousin(I think could have been his uncle

That was a lie.  Rock admitted that he was lying to bridge four when recounting his history.

On 5/12/2020 at 3:03 PM, Frustration said:

So you measure being broken by how much they heal? doesn't really hold up if I atomize a rock and start piecing it back together is it less broken than a table

That is a fallacy of analogy.  We don't really know what spren look for.  Them saying that they look for broken people means at least in my opinion that they look for people with a great capacity for growth. 

On 5/12/2020 at 3:03 PM, Frustration said:

Also if his brothers raised weapons against Sadeas, then they where 4th sons or below, and we still end up with cook/farmer Rock.

That does not explain his wife's objection to that statement.

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To raise weapons against someone in anger doesn't necessarily indicate if you were a first born, second born or whatever. If the text doesn't indicate that they were there as warriors, then they might have been serving in other capacities. They watch the fight, and realize that Sadeas essentially let their Nuatoma kill himself that might make them angry. Dalinar, might have said I respect your right to this challenge but not have let them get themselves killed. Or given them a demonstration so they could really know what they were getting into. I do think Rock will have to grow into his new responsibilities, but I think he is wise enough to not have to learn the same lesson over and over again like Kaladin.   

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I do agree that due to family deaths Rock is now the first son and Nuatoma. I believe the return to the peaks will be Rock’s major pivot point where he actively joins the fight. I would love to see some of Bridge 4 join other Orders but it seems like they are destined to be Captains of their own squires

In the near future you could have multiple full Windrunners will specific squire groups:

-Teft: Bridge 13

-Lopen: The Herdazian Cousins

-Rock: Horneater Warriors

-Rlain: Listener Windrunners

-Sigzil: Azish 

-Lyn: Other scouts and scribes

I can’t exactly predict how Skar, Leyten, and Drehy will get their squires. But Kaladin is quickly approaching a time when Bridge 4 will be scattered across Roshar protecting the world. They have been his support system and I’m sure a few will stick close to him.

But in order for Rock to continue his growth he needs to face his past. 

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Going off your observations Red Windrunner. I imagine something like this or at least I think it would be awesome. 

Rock-Horneater Warriors as squires, they protect the Horn Eater Peaks (Oath Gate)

Teft- Bridge 13, main Windrunner Radiant troops

Rlain-Listener Windrunners, (they protect Nerak, Oathgate), 

 Sigzil: I kind of see him sticking with Kaladin, but if he does do his own thing (protecting the Azish oathgate (I'm pretty sure they have one)

Lopen- honestly no idea, but someone has to stay at the tower.

I don't think it will be Lyn. I do think a core group will stick with Kaladin, and also a core group will stay at the Tower of Urithru. But Kaladin I think has shown he belongs on the battle field. As does Adolin. 

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Yeah the perpendicularity, and thereby protect the spren they love so much. After all shadesmar was invaded too. I haven't had enough coffee this morning, but the oath gates somehow can be manipulated to do what perpendicularity do, travel to and from shadesmar. I find that interesting. 

Edited by Master Silver
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