Character Arena

[Eugenides]

So, I have had numerous discussions with a friend that started with "Who would win between..." So I thought of a few to post here. Feel free to add new ones, or choose any of these here to discuss

Kaladin v Kelsier

Wax v Kelsier

Szeth v Vin(no atium)

The Blackthorn v 2-3 Inquisitors

The Lord Ruler v Hoid

[NameIess]

33 minutes ago, Eugenides said:

So, I have had numerous discussions with a friend that started with "Who would win between..." So I thought of a few to post here. Feel free to add new ones, or choose any of these here to discuss

Kaladin v Kelsier

Wax v Kelsier

Szeth v Vin(no atium)

The Blackthorn v 2-3 Inquisitors

The Lord Ruler v Hoid

I have one request. Please specify whether Kelsier has Atium or not, and if so, how much, along with which metals Vin and Kelsier have access to, as well as which point in their lives they are. Otherwise this will turn into a back and forth argument that will last for dozens of pages.

[Experience]

Yes, I think that the circumstances mean everything. Also, Hoid pretty much wins almost everything(I think)

[FantasyFanatic]

If Kel had no atium, than Kal (I just realized how wired that sounds).

Kelsier

Vin

Inquisitors

While the last one is a bit tricky, but I would say The Lord Ruler.

[NameIess]

45 minutes ago, FantasyFanatic said:

While the last one is a bit tricky, but I would say The Lord Ruler.

Ehh, I think it would stalemate. Neither of them can really kill the other. TLR can't completely obliterate Hoid, and Hoid can't hurt people, so...

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Eugenides said:

Kaladin v Kelsier

I'm assuming era 1 Kelsier is who you mean not Fullborn era 2 guy.

So Kal wins, sorry but Kelsier just can't heal, and that changes everything.

4 hours ago, Eugenides said:

Wax v Kelsier

OOoohhh, Wax has better steel(feruchemy I know it's different but in a contest of pushing Wax wins), and a gun. But Kelsier has more metals. I say it's a 50/50.

4 hours ago, Eugenides said:

Szeth v Vin(no atium)

Szeth with Honorblade or Nightblood? Anyway both are wins.

4 hours ago, Eugenides said:

The Blackthorn v 2-3 Inquisitors

So, young Dalinar blade, plate and thrill? just dig the Inqusitors graves now. Radiant Dalinar? well, they might have a chance.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Frustration

[Honorless]

Brandon has talked about a hypothetical match-up between Kelsier and Kaladin

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Questioner

Kelsier vs. Kaladin, who wins?

Brandon Sanderson

Kelsier is meaner. Kelsier is sneakier. Raw power - I'm not sure, but I'm gonna go with Kelsier. If its on a battlefield, Kelsier doesn't win. If its off the battlefield, Kelsier wins. Kaladin is a soldier. He can fight a war and fight with a team and he can win a battle. Kelsier can sneak into someones house and stab them.

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

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Questioner

Who would win in a fight, Kaladin or Kelsier?

Brandon Sanderson

Kelsier, he fights dirty. Kaladin has, probably, more raw power-- I don't know. Kelsier's going to win easy though. He's just going to murder him in his sleep.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

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sockmop

Who would win in a fight, Kaladin with no Shards but with Surgebinding and his favorite spear (aluminum tip) or Kelsier with the first nine metals of Allomancy?

AndTwoYears

Kelsier, I think, if Kaladin doesn't have Syl with him. But it may depend on nearby metal sources.

Alternatively, they come to a shaky alliance where they both fight against the nobility but still get on each other's nerves. [Brandon] care to weigh in?

Brandon Sanderson

If they came to arms, Kelsier would try to kill Kaladin in his sleep, most likely. But it depends on a lot of factors, and I think your alternative is the most likely.

General Reddit 2018 (Aug. 27, 2018)

Current level Kaladin, without Shardplate but still with Shardblade and Stormlight healing and equal if not greater air mobility is going to be a challenge for Kelsier without Atium (at least give him 'poor man's Atium')

Edited May 9, 2020 by R J

[Mat]

For Hoid/Lord Ruler, that is tricky.

For one, The Lord Ruler has lots of tricks for his healing. But Hoid probably knows all of them.

Also, Hoid doesn't seem scared of weapons- he calls Jasnah's Shardblade a 'little knife' or something like that.

So I would say Hoid-even though he doesn't like hurting people-, but I dunno. what I would say is I would definitely pay to have Brandon write that.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Matrim's_Dice
Addition

[Elsecaller_17.5]

Kaladin, Kelsier, and Vin win the first 3.

I think the Blackthorn one must be a joke. I mean a fully sharded blackthorn drivin by the thrill would destroy Inquisitors. His plate beats Pewter, he's largely immune to there Steel and Iron, his Shardblade will blow through their Gold reserves like nothing, and the thrill will even resist emotional allomancy. All they can do is run away (which, yah, they could do very well).

TLR vs Hoid? I've got to call it a stalemate as they both have nigh unstoppable healing.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5

[FantasyFanatic]

8 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I think the Blackthorn one must be a joke. I mean a fully sharded blackthorn drivin by the thrill would destroy Inquisitors. His plate beats Pewter, he's largely immune to there Steel and Iron, his Shardblade will blow through their Gold reserves like nothing, and the thrill will even resist emotional allomancy. All they can do is run away (which, yah, they could do very well).

I could see the Blackthorn winning but having Inquisitors jumping and flying all around you and hitting you with coins. Brandon says that Shardplate can take a couple of hits from a gun, and coins travel at about the same speed. So if they could just hit him maybe 5 or 6 times his plate would probably break. But this would only work on a large playing field. In an Arena style fight, this one would go to the Blackthorn

[NameIess]

15 hours ago, Eugenides said:

Kaladin v Kelsier

Wax v Kelsier

Szeth v Vin(no atium)

The Blackthorn v 2-3 Inquisitors

The Lord Ruler v Hoid

I'm not going to answer the Kaladin v kelsier until I know which stage Kelsier's at, and if he has Atium.

Kelsier beats Wax easily. He's got all the metals, no contest.

Szeth with Honorblade loses, with Nightblood he has a pretty good chance, but Vin is pretty tough. It could go either way.

The Inquisitors slaughter Blackthorn Dalinar. He doesn't have a chance. Dalinar admitted that he couldn't have beaten Szeth with an Honorblade, and the Inquisitors can fly, get strong enough to punch through Plate, shoot coins, use superspeed, and heal Shardblade wounds. No contest.

As I have said, this one is a draw. Neither of them can kill the other, so unless Hoid waits for TLR to die of old age, it's a tie.

 

[Eugenides]

16 hours ago, Nameless said:

I have one request. Please specify whether Kelsier has Atium or not, and if so, how much, along with which metals Vin and Kelsier have access to, as well as which point in their lives they are. Otherwise this will turn into a back and forth argument that will last for dozens of pages.

Ok, Kelsier and Vin and Wax have enough of the eight basic metals to last through the battle. Neither has Atium, and Surgebinders have enough Stormlight to last through the battle.

Now, I would like to address the question of Wax V Kelsier, because me and my friend think Wax would win. Wax has the ability, assuming he has enough weight stored up, to use steel in a way that is far more powerful than Kelsier's Steelpush/Ironpull. So, in theory, Wax could push Kelsier through a building or something. Secondly, Wax is simply better at steel than Kelsier ever was. He has enough control to create a steel bubble without affecting his weapons or bullets. Thirdly, Wax can literally fly, if he didn't want him to, Kelsier couldn't touch him, and finally, Wax is just a better fighter than Kelsier. I mean, Kelsier had trouble with six hazekillers. Wax has taken down twenty men on his own.

[Eugenides]

Also, I disagree about @Nameless's argument for Inquisitors v Blackthorn. This isn't Dalinar we are talking about, this is the Blackthorn. You simply can't kill a force of nature. 

10 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Kaladin, Kelsier, and Vin win the first 3.

I think the Blackthorn one must be a joke. I mean a fully sharded blackthorn drivin by the thrill would destroy Inquisitors. His plate beats Pewter, he's largely immune to there Steel and Iron, his Shardblade will blow through their Gold reserves like nothing, and the thrill will even resist emotional allomancy. All they can do is run away (which, yah, they could do very well).

TLR vs Hoid? I've got to call it a stalemate as they both have nigh unstoppable healing.

I agree with @Elsecaller_17.5, The Blackthorn is simply better at everything. The healing issue is irrelevant. It takes Kal a ton of Stormlight to heal a Shardblade wound, the Inquisitors would very quickly run out of healing. Furthermore, Dalinar has no metal on him. His blade and plate are not able to be affected by Allomancy, and all the inquisitors have, strong as they are, is obsidian axes and coins. I think he could take out, with some difficulty, two inquisitors. Three would be tricky, but he might be able to pull it off.

[Eugenides]

Actually, I just realized something. Inquisitors could not heal from a shardblade wound. Shardblades cut through the soul. I don't think that  Gold could help.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

@Eugenides They can it would just be a huge drain on resources. 

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Kurkistan

Does a limb that has been "severed" by a Shardblade have any Hemalurgic bindpoints? If the same limb was then cut off more conventionally, would a Bloodmaker ferring be able to grow it back?

Brandon Sanderson

A severed Shardblade limb needs repair to the soul before it would function again. A Bloodmaker would be able to heal it without needing to grow it back.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 18, 2013)

I'd bet they might get one limb, but definitely not a head or spine.

[NameIess]

7 minutes ago, Eugenides said:

I agree with @Elsecaller_17.5, The Blackthorn is simply better at everything. The healing issue is irrelevant. It takes Kal a ton of Stormlight to heal a Shardblade wound, the Inquisitors would very quickly run out of healing. Furthermore, Dalinar has no metal on him. His blade and plate are not able to be affected by Allomancy, and all the inquisitors have, strong as they are, is obsidian axes and coins. I think he could take out, with some difficulty, two inquisitors. Three would be tricky, but he might be able to pull it off.

The Blackthorn cannot kill a bunch of guys that can fly. Dalinar admitted to himself that he couldn't have beaten Szeth, and the Inquisitors have all of Szeth's advantages except for the Shardblade, and they can heal from Shardblade wounds which Szeth cannot, and they have a numerical advantage.

 

[Dunkum]

28 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The Blackthorn cannot kill a bunch of guys that can fly. Dalinar admitted to himself that he couldn't have beaten Szeth, and the Inquisitors have all of Szeth's advantages except for the Shardblade, and they can heal from Shardblade wounds which Szeth cannot, and they have a numerical advantage.

 

Unless they have ferruchemical Iron to increase their mass for a steel push/iron pull (do they?  i foget what teh standard spikes were for an inquisitor) I highly doubt their coins are travelling at bullet speeds.  more like arrow or crossbow.  and we know someone in shardplate can pretty much ignore arrows.  so put simply, I dont think an inquisitor could actually hurt someone in shardplate, at least not without getting close, and at close range gettign hit by a shardplate powered punch is deadly, or at least close to it.  throw in a shardblade and the potential of having a cut sever one or more of the hemalurgic spikes thus losing them their powers (or just straight up killing them) and I think it goes to Dalinar.

[Eugenides]

@Nameless 

I do not think Inquisitors could heal from a shardblade. Shardblades sever the soul, not the flesh or blood. Think about it. You store up health by being sick or injured and not recovering. That means that when you are injured or sick later, you can recover faster. This is different than having your soul severed. Furthermore, I agree with @Dunkum, coins probably do not travel as fast as bullets, they would not do as much damage. But even if they did, the inquisitors would have to hit the same spot two or three times, something not so easy to do. About the flying point. The farther up that they fly, the less accurate they will be with coins. Also, the Blackthorn could admittedly jump super high into the air, then throw his blade into one of the inquisitors.

 

[Frustration]

@Eugenides did you not read the WoB?

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, Dunkum said:

Unless they have ferruchemical Iron to increase their mass for a steel push/iron pull (do they?  i foget what teh standard spikes were for an inquisitor) I highly doubt their coins are travelling at bullet speeds.  more like arrow or crossbow.  and we know someone in shardplate can pretty much ignore arrows.  so put simply, I dont think an inquisitor could actually hurt someone in shardplate, at least not without getting close, and at close range gettign hit by a shardplate powered punch is deadly, or at least close to it.  throw in a shardblade and the potential of having a cut sever one or more of the hemalurgic spikes thus losing them their powers (or just straight up killing them) and I think it goes to Dalinar.

Why would they only be able to shoot coins? They can shoot larger objects too. And I think they have F-Pewter, and they have F-steel. If it's before TLR's downfall, then at least one of them is going to have Atium, and if it's after, then they're all compounders.

[Eugenides]

52 minutes ago, Frustration said:

@Eugenides did you not read the WoB?

Maybe...I don't recognize the acronym

 

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, Eugenides said:

Maybe...I don't recognize the acronym

 

Word of Brandon, the one Elsecaller_17.5 gave

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Kurkistan

Does a limb that has been "severed" by a Shardblade have any Hemalurgic bindpoints? If the same limb was then cut off more conventionally, would a Bloodmaker ferring be able to grow it back?

Brandon Sanderson

A severed Shardblade limb needs repair to the soul before it would function again. A Bloodmaker would be able to heal it without needing to grow it back.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 18, 2013)

 

 

[Dunkum]

8 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Why would they only be able to shoot coins? They can shoot larger objects too. And I think they have F-Pewter, and they have F-steel. If it's before TLR's downfall, then at least one of them is going to have Atium, and if it's after, then they're all compounders.

larger objects will move slower since the force of the steelpush is based on the masses.  still might do more damage since it has more mass, and energy is proportional to speed squared, but I don't think we are approaching speeds that can damage shardplate without F-iron to massively increase the weight of the inquisitor.  f-pewter and f-steel together would definitely give them a shot at damaging shardplate, but they'd have to tap a ton of them, or at least a ton of the pewter, all at once.  any inquisitor that knows how to compound should be able to manage that, but not all of them did know how. 

given that though, I think I'd change my answer: if at least 1 of the inquisitors in question knows how to compound their metals, then they could compound pewter and steel to land absolutely shattering hits that could definitely break through shardplate, and they could move fast enough to avoid a shardblade and basically get a hit n wherever they want - so they could almost certainly beat Dalinar.  without compounding, I think the ferruchemical charge to manage it migth be too high.  3 inquisitors working together could maybe manage it, but I think Dlainar beats any  non-comounding inquisitors.

[Staenbridge]

21 hours ago, Eugenides said:

Szeth v Vin(no atium)

Vin takes this easily just because of the sheer versatility and ridiculous strength of full Mistborn powers, but you don't need to add many constraints before Szeth has a good chance, depending on which Szeth we're talking about. That might sound kind of dumb but hear me out:

• Emotional allomancy is something that Rosharans basically have no experience with; Vin could just blast Szeth with a sledgehammer of Soothing and he'd stand there like a drooling idiot while she slit his throat. However, WoR Szeth is filled with the most incredibly potent emotions — that is to say, self hatred, disgust, etc. — and we're told these have a tendency to interfere with Soothing. 
• An allomancer with sources of metal and sufficient iron/steel reserves could basically cut down anyone without Plate without getting anywhere near the opponents. Suppose for some reason Vin's out of coins. Now she does actually have to get close, because Rosharans don't use metal for their currency. 
• In close combat, a Surgebinder has an ungodly advantage over an equivalently skilled and resourced allomancer, because they can just keep taking fatal injuries and reheal them, while also being able to maintain good distance with Shardweapons, and having a much more lethal tool. 
• Szeth in particular has trained to proficiency with all 10 Surges, in addition to having Nightblood at one point. This means that you could justify having fight be Szeth with the Surge set of the Windrunners, Dustbringers, Edgedancers, Truthwatchers, Lightweavers, Elsecallers, Willshapers, or Bondsmiths.
  • No metal and then Willshaper Szeth is able to make Vin sink into the floor and then it's an easy win for the Shin. 
  • Edgedancer Szeth is much more effectively able to avoid Steelpushed and Ironpulled objects through abrasion, and Progression seems to make their Stormlight healing much more effective. 
  • Elsecaller Szeth could just dump Vin in the Cognitive and then who cares; she's a dead woman walking. 
  • Either of the Transformation Honorblades would let Szeth turn the air around Vin into stone, at which point she's stuck unless Pewter is significantly more powerful than I was led to believe. 

You get the picture. Brass, zinc, iron, steel, and atium all can result in Vin flattening Szeth, but removing just a couple of these change the odds drastically. Even just knowledge of each other's powers would make this a more even battle, as a lot of the difficulty in an unprepared fight will be that Vin could just surprise him with Allomancy. Szeth can't sustainably keep healing from coin injuries, because it takes a lot less Investiture to shoot a coin into his forehead than it does for him to revive himself. 

[Chiberty]

1 hour ago, Staenbridge said:

Emotional allomancy is something that Rosharans basically have no experience with; Vin could just blast Szeth with a sledgehammer of Soothing and he'd stand there like a drooling idiot while she slit his throat. However, WoR Szeth is filled with the most incredibly potent emotions — that is to say, self hatred, disgust, etc. — and we're told these have a tendency to interfere with Soothing. 

Szeth did have a lot of emotions gong on, but for most all of his fights, he ignored his emotional impulses and just focused on his sense of honor. There was, of course, that one time he decided on his own to attack Adolin, but otherwise, Soothing's not going to do much to him. It would just remove a distraction from his orders. Rioting has a chance to cause problems for him, but Invested people are also hard to affect with emotional Allomancy. I don't know which one would win, as there are too many variables there, but in most situations in a fight between them, emotional Allomancy won't play a big roll.