Breath and spren

[Honorless]

What would giving Breath to spren result in? Breath is supposed to be more in the Physical than the Spiritual due to the nature of Endowment / to facilitate their transfer. Would the adaptability of Breath to different sDNA cause it to become more Cognitive in nature? Or would it make it easier for the spren to push into the Physical Realm and retain their coherence there?

I assume that the rules of Awakening should still remain the same for them and they would still gain Heightenings if they acquire more Breaths, but would doing so change what kind of spren they are if they have more of Endowment's Investiture or would Endowment's nature mean her Investiture wouldn't change the inherent nature of the spren? If the spren was a Nahel Bond capable spren, would this count as Corruption assuming their nature does change? Would they still grant the same Surges?

Could they grant the benefits of the Heightenings to their Bondmate? Seeing as the Nahel Bond is a melding of the Spiritwebs, to some degree, would transferring Breaths be easier between Bondmates or could a Bondmate use one another's Breath at the Fifth Ideal?

[Eternal Khol]

3 hours ago, R J said:

What would giving Breath to spren result in? Breath is supposed to be more in the Physical than the Spiritual due to the nature of Endowment / to facilitate their transfer. Would the adaptability of Breath to different sDNA cause it to become more Cognitive in nature? Or would it make it easier for the spren to push into the Physical Realm and retain their coherence there?

I assume that the rules of Awakening should still remain the same for them and they would still gain Heightenings if they acquire more Breaths, but would doing so change what kind of spren they are if they have more of Endowment's Investiture or would Endowment's nature mean her Investiture wouldn't change the inherent nature of the spren? If the spren was a Nahel Bond capable spren, would this count as Corruption assuming their nature does change? Would they still grant the same Surges?

Could they grant the benefits of the Heightenings to their Bondmate? Seeing as the Nahel Bond is a melding of the Spiritwebs, to some degree, would transferring Breaths be easier between Bondmates or could a Bondmate use one another's Breath at the Fifth Ideal?

Seeing that Breath provides Physical enhancements, id be willing to bet that the breath would just meld to the spren’s Identity like a regular person and let the spren manifest more fully in the Physical Realm. Letting them stay smart and become a shardblade without forming a bond. Eliminating the chance of the spren dying by human fault

Edited May 7, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Honorless]

14 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Seeing that Breath provides Physical enhancements, id be willing to bet that the breath would just meld to the spren’s Identity like a regular person and let the spren manifest more fully in the Physical Realm. Letting them stay smart and become a shardblade without forming a bond. Eliminating the chance of the spren dying by human fault

A free floating Shardblade?!

[Emi]

It may also not work at all. Sprens are more spiritual, so breath could simply don't affect them

[Honorless]

On 5/7/2020 at 3:33 PM, Emi said:

It may also not work at all. Spren are more Spiritual, so Breath could simply not affect them

There is that, yes but it just doesn't feel right that the magic that can go to anyone, from the Shard of giving, wouldn't be usable by spren, who are also sapient people. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Honorless
missing commas

[Emi]

Maybe it would make them more understandable. I mean, that the "normal" sprens like laughspren or lifespren may become more thoughtful

[spaidapig]

I more leaned to it not working, because different Investiture withstands each other, like a Shardblade can be blocked by a charged metalmind.

But if it works, it could strengthen their "bond" to the physical realm.

[Honorless]

30 minutes ago, spaidapig said:

I more leaned to it not working, because different Investiture withstands each other, like a Shardblade can be blocked by a charged metalmind.

But if it works, it could strengthen their "bond" to the physical realm.

There is that, the spren are living Investiture

[spaidapig]

I found this quote from the WoB

Quote

Questioner

Can Soulforged bones be Awakened?

Brandon Sanderson

Can Soulforged bones be Awakened? So, Soulcast bones be awakened? Once the Soulcasting is done, it is no longer Invested, and it would act as the normal item. A Forged item will act as Invested, and will resist any manipulation. Differences between the magics.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

but this is about awakening and not on giving breath.

 

But I still think that the spren should resist the breath, because it is pure Investiture. And the whole Investiture interferes with Investiture thing should make this impossible under normal circumstances.

[Honorless]

25 minutes ago, spaidapig said:

But I still think that the spren should resist the breath, because it is pure Investiture. And the whole Investiture interferes with Investiture thing should make this impossible under normal circumstances.

I would argue that Breath might be an exception to this rule, as it comes from Endowment, the Shard of giving. A Breath, freely given, even to a spren might be able to adapt itself to its host somehow, as it is in its nature to be transferable and usable by anyone. 

[Quantus]

If it is possible, I would strongly suspect it would only be able to work if you were in Shademar and could grant it to the Spren in their natural state, the same way you can use hemalurgic Spikes on a spren there but not in the Physical Realm.  

[Honorless]

26 minutes ago, Quantus said:

you can use hemalurgic Spikes on a spren there but not in the Physical Realm.  

You can't? 

[Quantus]

15 minutes ago, R J said:

You can't? 

Best we can tell, yes.  

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Supposing that a skilled Hemalurgist got hold of some a Shardblade or some Shardplate, how would he best use it assuming that the best way isn't to put it on and kill people with it.

Brandon Sanderson

That's probably the best way, to put it on and kill people with it. I'm not sure why a Hemalurgist would want one more than anyone else would because the metal is already Invested which means its not useful to him.

Questioner

So there is no way that he could use a Hemalurgic spike to take some power from the Spren that's crafting it.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, that's what you're saying. You want to grab something off the Spren? That's gonna be way harder than grabbing one that's not already made into something. So I don't see why he would want the Blade, just go grab it from them. Even then its going to be worse then, probably in most cases, a person. Maybe its possible that spiking yourself with a Spren would be valid, but you don't want to take it out of the Shardblade. That's gonna be harder, but you would probably have to go to the Cognitive either way to make it work, so yeah.

Shadows of Self Portland signing (Oct. 10, 2015)

 

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Can you Hemalurgically spike a highspren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, asterisk.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

 

 

 

 

[mathiau]

5 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

Seeing that Breath provides Physical enhancements, id be willing to bet that the breath would just meld to the spren’s Identity like a regular person and let the spren manifest more fully in the Physical Realm. Letting them stay smart and become a shardblade without forming a bond. Eliminating the chance of the spren dying by human fault

Actually, Lifesense is a Mental enhancement and Intuitive knowledge is probably a Spiritual enhancement, or at least a Mental one

(I'd say spiritual since spiritual enhancements help with placing hemalurgic spikes)

5 hours ago, Emi said:

It may also not work at all. Sprens are more spiritual, so breath could simply don't affect them

Actually, Spren are non-physical, not spiritual

5 hours ago, spaidapig said:

I more leaned to it not working, because different Investiture withstands each other, like a Shardblade can be blocked by a charged metalmind.

But if it works, it could strengthen their "bond" to the physical realm.

These two are solid physical object while Breathes are gaseous Endowment, the only time we've seen gaseous investiture being repulsed was Preservation's Mists being repulsed by long spiked peoples, I don't see Endowment's gaseous form being repulsed by investiture for either Honour or Cultivation. On the other hand I can totally see it being repulsed by Odium

4 hours ago, R J said:

There is that, the spren are living Investiture

Like every living thing in the Cosmere

 

Now about an actual argument about the subject, the only reason I can see for a spren being unable to carry breath would be that it doesn't have a body, here's why I don't think it's enough:

Aside from the cognitive avatar of his holder, a Shard mostly has three manifestations: a solid one -their godmetal- a liquid one -their shardpool(s)- and a gaseous one -the mists, stormlight or breaths-, according to Sazed each of them correspond to either the body, mind or soul of the shard. I don't remember which of  the liquid or the gaseous correspond to the soul and which to the mind but I remember that the godmetal correspond to the body (which my the way is why we say Lerasium and not Preservium). Why would you need a body to use the spirit/soul of a shard?

(I'd say liquid for soul since shardpools make the three realms one and the spiritual real is essentially a dot)

Now, it's possible that a spren wouldn't hold breaths as good as a human and would leak them, but that's not the point.

 

[Elsecaller_17.5]

Seems we missed this, aren't spren pretty expletivly cognitive beings?

[mathiau]

29 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Seems we missed this, aren't spren pretty expletivly cognitive beings?

I'm pretty sure they have a soul

[Honorless]

25 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I'm pretty sure they have a soul

Yes, they do have a soul or a Spiritweb, confirmed within the text itself while various spren were talking about the nature of the Nahel Bond as a melding between their's and their Bondmates'.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I'm pretty sure they have a soul

They have aspects that exist in a 3 realms but in general they are primarily cognitive.

[Honorless]

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Now about an actual argument about the subject, the only reason I can see for a spren being unable to carry breath would be that it doesn't have a body, here's why I don't think it's enough:

Aside from the cognitive avatar of his holder, a Shard mostly has three manifestations: a solid one -their godmetal- a liquid one -their shardpool(s)- and a gaseous one -the mists, stormlight or breaths-, according to Sazed each of them correspond to either the body, mind or soul of the shard. I don't remember which of  the liquid or the gaseous correspond to the soul and which to the mind but I remember that the godmetal correspond to the body (which my the way is why we say Lerasium and not Preservium). Why would you need a body to use the spirit/soul of a shard?

(I'd say liquid for soul since shardpools make the three realms one and the spiritual real is essentially a dot)

Now, it's possible that a spren wouldn't hold breaths as good as a human and would leak them, but that's not the point.

 

It's not a one-to-one correspondence. Their soul isn't manifesting as gaseous or their minds as liquid Investiture: that's just the Shard's power. Both the Cognitive and the Spiritual Realm are composed of Investiture. 

[mathiau]

8 minutes ago, R J said:

It's not a one-to-one correspondence. Their soul isn't manifesting as gaseous or their minds as liquid Investiture: that's just the Shard's power.

I can't find the quote I was talking so I can't tell you whether it was a one-one or not :/

7 minutes ago, R J said:

Both the Cognitive and the Spiritual Realm are composed of Investiture. 

And the Physical realm too

 

[Honorless]

9 minutes ago, mathiau said:

And the Physical realm too

But only partly, mostly it's mundane matter and energy

[mathiau]

Just now, R J said:

But only partly, mostly it's mundane matter and energy

Actually, mundane matter and energy is made of Investiture

[Honorless]

Just now, mathiau said:

Actually, mundane matter and energy is made of Investiture

Source? 

[mathiau]

4 minutes ago, R J said:

Source? 

Here you go

Quote

Aurimus

As the two Realms, the Cognitive and the Spiritual, are, well, fictional... Are they all comprised of Investiture, completely?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. No, completely? Well, here's the thing. Investiture, matter, and energy are all the same thing in the cosmere. So, just like energy and matter are the same thing here. So, yes, everything's made of Investiture, in the same way that everything's made of energy in our world. Does that make sense?

Link to the WoB : https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8656

[Honorless]

12 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Actually, mundane matter and energy is made of Investiture

 

5 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Here you go

Link to the WoB : https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8656

What you said isn't exactly what the WoB is saying but arguing science would result in a derailing, just google it

To go back to the original point that you raised: states of Investiture do not correspond to the Three Realms