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Quick Fix 44: Shadows in the Forest


Straw

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43 minutes ago, The_God_King said:

Well, it looks like my opinion is wrong, again. I never swung 100% behind the elims flooding the dead doc. I suggested it as an option and apparently everyone thinks I'm wrong. woohoo another glorious day on SE. PMing is apparently guilty and voting with a gut feeling when the only other option presented is myself is heresy. 

TGK, the great thing with the SE community, is we are ok with off meta stuff. I didn't understand the theory behind this game to understand meta stuff at all until I was in the MU Championships, and saw all the different metas everyone played with. So much of that game was different people with different metas arguing about which one was the best. For instance, I was voted on because I RPed a tiny bit, and someone there thought that was AI.

Even now, I don't understand enough to be a player Like El or Aman, or anything close. But I just play this game to have fun.

MR35  I played where I claimed elim several times, posted nonsense, argued to keep an outed elim alive, all despite being a villager.
LG54 I practiced no PM safety despite being one of the 2 most powerful roles, and basically gave the elims the win
MR39 I tried coordinating an in thread series of actions to find the elims. (something very not in the meta here)

I did these things to have fun. It wasn't "wrong" for me to claim elim, though some people might have found it suspicious. It just was off meta. In MR39 Rae tried to kill me for organizing stuff in thread, because it was off meta.

What I strongly advise, is to find what about these games you like, and do that. If it's analysis, do that. If it's PMing, do that. If it's claiming elim in-thread, do that. I don't care. Some people may react in ways you don't agree with, including voting on or killing you, but that's all just a part of the game.

22 minutes ago, The_God_King said:

@Elberethits the continuing demeaning feeling of you were wrong but it’s all right that gets me. The whole youre sounding a lot like an elim but you must be too silly to know that so here’s a pat on the head. If you think I’m evil, lynch me and gather the information. I try to be proactive and it gets shoved in my face. I take initiative and PM, and I get what felt like a very public dressing down when the PM was so positive until you showed up. I don’t go whimpering back to my hole because I want to be engaged in this game. meta can jump off a cliff. Meta’s meant to be broken and I don’t care to learn years worth of traditions when I want to play as myself. Some is fine but how is anyone who didn’t experience it getting made supposed to catch up?

I'm sort of going to respond for El here, as I'm going to assume she is busy, but it's a continuation of what I'm saying. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to play this game. your PM was off meta, which some will consider to be suspicious.

In MR39, I was almost lynched for trying to organize stuff in thread. I was off meta, and people found me suspicious for it. This is why I specifically said that I didn't find you suspicious.

Just the way Striker talks a lot of people find suspicious. There is nothing he can do to control that. But it got him lynched C1 for several games straight when he first came back.

El referenced she is getting mixed signals from me. That's just how I play. The "best" way to play would be to always sound "good" right? Well, very few people can, are willing to put in the effort to, or even want to try to do that.

Edited by Furamirionind
there were a couple words missing in a sentence that made it read strangely.
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This is obviously a meta discussion and not a game discussion, but I will weigh in and say that from a villager perspective I actually do not disagree with TGK sending a PM instead of bringing these things up in the thread.

Theoretically, I agree that it shouldn't make a difference whether you have that discussion in a PM or in the thread, and that all things held equal, it is always better for more people to have eyes on the discussion. So I can sympathize with wanting those kinds of discussions to happen in the thread.

But people don't actually respond in the same way when you call them out in-thread or when you send them a private message. It maybe isn't very logical, but I do believe there are real benefits to having that conversation in a PM.

Personally, I would probably not elect to defend myself in a PM unless I thought a particular person was gunning for me pretty hard, which I do not think was especially the case here, but I also definitely think there is a place for defending yourself in PMs and so I do not fault TGK for making that decision.

Game discussion from me will come later.

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8 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Personally, I would probably not elect to defend myself in a PM unless I thought a particular person was gunning for me pretty hard, which I do not think was especially the case here, but I also definitely think there is a place for defending yourself in PMs and so I do not fault TGK for making that decision.

I'm going to sortof pick on your choice of the word "fault" here. Because I don't fault TGK for that choice either. And I suspect El also doesn't. You are right that people respond differently in PMs, though from my perspective, the PM didn't seem driven by reactions.  Due to this, I also do not fault El for making this public, as she is seeing it as AI, which I think is fair as well.

edit:

can I make a tl:dr of a couple sentances? too bad, I'm doing it:

Tl:dr, no one is at fault, and I think there has been a misunderstanding somewhere. : )

Edited by Furamirionind
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14 minutes ago, The_God_King said:

@Elberethits the continuing demeaning feeling of you were wrong but it’s all right that gets me. The whole youre sounding a lot like an elim but you must be too silly to know that so here’s a pat on the head. If you think I’m evil, lynch me and gather the information. I try to be proactive and it gets shoved in my face. I take initiative and PM, and I get what felt like a very public dressing down when the PM was so positive until you showed up. I don’t go whimpering back to my hole because I want to be engaged in this game. meta can jump off a cliff. Meta’s meant to be broken and I don’t care to learn years worth of traditions when I want to play as myself. Some is fine but how is anyone who didn’t experience it getting made supposed to catch up?

Okay, I see where you were coming from, and that's not what I intended to convey. I was not trying to say that the meta is correct (I think it is in this particular case, but certainly think it deserves to be challenged in general); I was trying to point out why Fura's comment felt like a jab to you. Which is because there's an obvious answer to this debate in our particular meta, and he's been around long enough that he reflected that by saying 'yeah, obviously thread would be better' or whatever. Maybe the comment could've been phrased better, but it wasn't at all trying to offend or annoy you. 

And, like, I do think you're sounding like an elim and I do want to lynch you. I made a whole post about it. I just don't think that PM was an indicator of suspicion - it's my opinion that it didn't help the village, but that doesn't automatically make it an elim ploy. Lots of villagers do things I disagree with all the time - Fura brought up some fine examples in his post. 

I disagree and here's why was all I was trying to say. I'm sorry that it came off as condescending and I can understand why the comment about the meta might've felt that way. You're perfectly entitled to disagree, and I'm decidedly not trying to stop you from doing so. I just want to explain my side and try to convince you because - obviously :P - I think I'm right.

I hope that helped. Actual content to come later, when I'm not spreadsheeting. :P Bye for real this time! (probably)

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6 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

I definitely think the PM thing felt village to me, which has me conflicted, but it's still my best suspicion by a long shot. :P If you'd like to suggest someone else, go right ahead! 

I shall! :P 

I'll be voting for Mist for these reasons and these interactions.

post by Fura:

Quote

Yeah, BR basically was the first real vote on Rae, with reasons. And Sart got her lynched, so they both should probably be village.
I'm actually really suspicious of Mist right now. I went offline immediately after my post and didn't see they had sheeped me onto Kidpen. I find that very suspicious when they voted on me for voting myself? ( @Mist I'd still like more of an explanation on that please xD ). Before my post, the lynch was 

Arraenae (2): Brightness, Megasif
DrakeMarshall (1): xinoehp512
Furamirionind (3): Furamirionind, StrikerEZ, Mist
xinoehp512 (1): CadCom
Sart (1): TGK

An elim would want to keep a player higher than Rae. It's possible Mist gambled on joining my lynch in the hopes I wouldn't return to vote (which did almost happen). Why they would have followed my vote to Kidpen specifically, I'm not certain. However it is possible they felt they needed to leave my lynch, and wanted to vote on someone with a vote. Without a votecount in front of them, they just sheeped me for ease. This is all speculation, but it's the best reasoning I have for Mist's actions, unless Mist wants to give me better ones.

As Sart got Ninja'd, this is also the votecount he had when voting on Rae. I'm tempted to speculate about a Sart/Fura team, but for some reason I find that unlikely...
Anyways, Following Sart's vote it now looked like:

Arraenae (3): Brightness, Megasif, Sart
Kidpen (2): Furamirionind, Mist
DrakeMarshall (1): xinoehp512
Furamirionind (1): StrikerEZ, 
xinoehp512 (1): CadCom
Sart (1): TGK

This means that anyone who posted after Sart could have equalized the vote on Kidpen. These people are The Archivest, Kynedath, and TGK. I'm not sure this is really clear-able though, as there would either need to be a last minute bandwagon on Drake/Fura/Xino/Sart/Kidpen. This would really incriminate Rae and those participating in the bandwagon,as she would likely get lynched this turn. This means that while I think they might be slightly less likely to be elims, it's probably not a big thing.

I'll add I'm not super fond of TGK removing their vote last minute, but from what I'm gathering of their playstyle, this doesn't seem unlike them.

At least until Mist responds to my questions, I'm going to have my vote on her.

Mist

response by Mist:

Quote

I didn't think Arranae was suspicious, wanted a lynch, and you were the next highest person. Also, semi-poke/motivation for you to do what you said. I removed it after you did what you said. I felt like I needed to vote on someone. Your reasons made sense, and, yes, it was convenient. 

 @Furamirionind, did I answer your questions? 

Post by Mist:

Quote

Fura, I voted on you because I wasn't suspicious of Arranae and you were the next person who could break that tie and cause a lynch, which provides information. Sart voted Arranae while I was typing up my promised edit with a vote. 

I think I voted on Kidpen because he shut down the code thing, despite having posted an alternative to it not working. I'm not exactly sure why I did that. Convenience, code, poke? Again, I'm not sure.


Post by Kidpen:

Quote

To get all the buildup out of the way, Mist.

I feel like Mist's original vote on Fura was pretty reasonable, and as I said a self vote under different circumstances would get an instant vote from me. What I definitely don't think was super reasonable was the vote on my that came relatively late in the cycle and was just sheeping (I feel like that's a pretty normal word to use) fura. Pretty weak evidence but I want to vote on someone up for the lynch and everyone else seems villagery or neuteral to me.

Also can I just say that I kind of hate the logic of people being an elim because their trying to look like they're contributing without contributing? I get that applied to me constantly and I don't think it's at all a valid approach. Especially, in this case, because the votee has only one real post.

My theory is that Mist might've been the only elim online at the time. (an hour before cycle end) and may have been looking for any alternate lynch other than Rae. She said she wanted to break a tie, didn't suspect Rae and so voted for the next person on the list, that being Fura. But they had no reasoning for why Fura was suspicious or a better target than Rae. They also said it was just convenient to sheep Fura's vote on Kidpen. I'm confused why an elim would be this obvious but it doesn't really line up either. They just talked about wanting to break ties but voting on kidpen made it a tie between Rae and kidpen at that point, so exactly opposite of what they said they would do.

The other reason i'd like to vote Mist is because I feel it would provide insight into both Fura and Kidpen. Two people which I can't get much of a read on currently.

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31 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

I'm going to sortof pick on your choice of the word "fault" here. Because I don't fault TGK for that choice either. And I suspect El also doesn't. You are right that people respond differently in PMs, though from my perspective, the PM didn't seem driven by reactions.  Due to this, I also do not fault El for making this public, as she is seeing it as AI, which I think is fair as well.

The word choice of "fault" may have been wrong, or at least misleading in the context of game meta. Let me explain what I am trying to get at here:

We are talking about meta. Specifically we are talking about what different people believe is the optimal way for a villager to play.

And for the most part I really don't care if somebody wants to play their game in a way I don't think is optimal.

Heck, the way I myself play the game falls quite a bit short of my definition of what the most optimal way to play the game is :P

And for that matter, even if I did care whether anyone played the game optimally or not, nobody should change the way they play based on what I think is optimal :P

 

So yeah, I am not going to "fault" TGK even if they do something I think is non-optimal. What I am trying to say though is that I don't personally think TGK did anything particularly non-optimal.

Edited by DrakeMarshall
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"Oh, I can't believe I missed it!"

"But I was... you know, busy making this porridge."

And two more deaths would only make shade sightseeing easier. Pity they were both loyal.

What could he do until night?

"Hey! you! Cain!"

"Cain you come here please?"

"I made this just for you, I know how hard this all must be for you. Your 'Loyal' team falling apart on you!"

"And of course, you are sadly not good enough to stop it."

"Come, don't feel so gloomy, try this porridge."

He looked down at Cain from the tree he had been climbing on while he waited for an answer.

"While you eat you could even tell me what the silver lining of all this is."

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Honestly it comes down to playstyle. I think El was suspicious of it which is why she called it out in the first place. It feels like it should've been more of an "I'm suspicious of you for going to us in PMs where you can silently influence people without the whole village seeing the interaction and looking suspicious" rather than making it look like TGK "shouldn't" do that based on meta stuff. So I feel it was something that felt sus to El but was in no way wrong on TGK's part. It's a matter of differing opinions. I feel it does look a little suspicious for someone to take it all to PMs but that doesn't mean it's wrong to do it. Their are benefits to keeping yourself alive as a villager and no reason not to try and get people's attention better by PM'ing them. 

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Vote Count:
God King (1): Elbereth
Brightness Radiant (1): God King
Furamirionind (1): Brightness Radiant

Rollover isn't doing me any favors this game. I completely missed the lynch train forming on Striker. Karnage was the first vote on the train, because Striker was sticking his tongue out. Then, Elandera voted, but Elandera died to the Traitor kill. The God King then voted in self-defense, which is not particularly AI. Brightness voted next to force the lynch, which makes me lean village. Finally, Mint voted. I'm still having trouble reading them, but that's probably because they are a new player. Of the people who voted on Striker, I think Mint is the most suspicious. They did vote to save Arraenae, which I initially discounted due to them being a new player. However, their post voting on Striker has rubbed me the wrong way. It seemed like too much of a shift somehow. I know I'm being vague, but that's the best I got right now.

I'm also worried about the number of inactives. The GM already mentioned them, so I won't duplicate that, but please post. It would suck to lose so many players in one cycle.

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Lets see, I suspect that there are probably 4 elims left (with a small possibility of 5, but I doubt it) That means there would be 14 villagers. We are on cycle 3

so Worst case scenario, assuming 14-4 spread, and no more knives

Start of C4: 12-4
S. o C5: 10-4
C6: 8-4
C7: 6-4
C8:4-4 

So worst case scenario the game enters Lylo on C7. If we add in a single missed Knife attack, that changes to C6. 

But even guessing with mere chance we start with a 1/4 chance of catching an elim. and we have about 4 or 5 chances, with each cycle the chance growing. For now I think if we don't catch the elims quickly, we can see the game making it to cycle 8 or maybe even 9. 

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3 minutes ago, Sart said:

Vote Count:
God King (1): Elbereth
Brightness Radiant (1): God King
Furamirionind (1): Brightness Radiant

I believe Brightness voted for Mist, not Furamirionind. Also, I assume you mean Mist, rather than "Mint"?

Official vote count:

Mist (2): Brightness, Sart
Brightness (1): The_God_King
The_God_King (1): Elbereth

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3 minutes ago, Straw said:

I believe Brightness voted for Mist, not Furamirionind. Also, I assume you mean Mist, rather than "Mint"?

Official vote count:

Mist (2): Brightness, Sart
Brightness (1): The_God_King
The_God_King (1): Elbereth

I need to get some sleep. Yes, I meant to vote for Mist

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Well shoot. Five hours is now six and I only just caught up on Cycle 2. I want to come out with a Drake-esque summary of my thoughts, but that will have to wait until morning. Now I am going back to read this cycle so I can at least do something useful tonight. This should probably be in blue, but I don't want to use excessive blue text, so you are welcome to use any of this inactivity against me.

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1 hour ago, Sart said:

Of the people who voted on Striker, I think Mint is the most suspicious. They did vote to save Arraenae, which I initially discounted due to them being a new player. However, their post voting on Striker has rubbed me the wrong way. It seemed like too much of a shift somehow. I know I'm being vague, but that's the best I got right now.

Ohh, that does seem pretty suspicious, I haven't been paying close enough to find suspicious characters. I looked back and this reasoning works with me and it makes sense. I think that I will vote on Mist as well.

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Alright, Mist, similar reasons as last cycle. That being saidz I do have growing suspicions ok both BR and TGK, and I'm planning to relook at the series of events last cycle to figure out where/if elims were on the Striker lynch.

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1 hour ago, Kidpen said:

Alright, Mist, similar reasons as last cycle. That being saidz I do have growing suspicions ok both BR and TGK, and I'm planning to relook at the series of events last cycle to figure out where/if elims were on the Striker lynch.

#thonk, not sure of anything I've done to look sus but I am glad you're gonna look back at the events.

 

Also we need more people to vote >> 

And I'm super worried about a lot of people getting killed to inactivity filter. Please post! I don't wanna lose this game cuz we lose like 5 people in one cycle -_- @A Joe in the Bush @Kynedath @Zillah care to say hi? Just one sentence will keep you alive! 

 

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Okay, I'm back. This cycle was a lot easier to process. I'm sad to see village striker fall to his typical curse, but not especially surprised. I do love the new dead doc mechanic! You can be sure I'll cause havoc in there if I go (so don't send me there?)

I don't especially love lynching Mist, but there is some solid evidence against you, friend. Voting with Fura was an interesting choice, and not having a reason doesn't help me not suspect you. All that said, my vote is far from permanent. It might especially change as I go through cycle 2 again.

Ninja Kidpen:

I don't especially suspect either GodKing or Brightness. I think I see what you're saying. They do work on a team together, but this connection is super obvious. That gets super "I know you know" fast, but even so I doubt they're both bad and as such lynching one does not give us the alignment of the other.

I'm close to opening a can of contribution crusade; if only it wasn't so hypocritical. 

Much more in the morning, but for now

4 hours ago, Lord_Silberfarben said:

"Oh, I can't believe I missed it!"

"But I was... you know, busy making this porridge."

And two more deaths would only make shade sightseeing easier. Pity they were both loyal.

What could he do until night?

"Hey! you! Cain!"

"Cain you come here please?"

"I made this just for you, I know how hard this all must be for you. Your 'Loyal' team falling apart on you!"

"And of course, you are sadly not good enough to stop it."

"Come, don't feel so gloomy, try this porridge."

He looked down at Cain from the tree he had been climbing on while he waited for an answer.

"While you eat you could even tell me what the silver lining of all this is."

Cain walked over to Silber.

"I made this just for you" Silber said handing Cain a bowl of something soft and sticky looking. "I know how hard this all must be for you. Your 'Loyal' team falling apart on you!"

"And of course, you are sadly not good enough to stop it."

That elicited a laugh from Cain.

"Come, don't feel so gloomy, try this porridge."

He must have misunderstood the chuckle to be saddened. Cain looked up from the porridge(?) to correct Silber and saw his foot disappear into the foliage of a tree.

Silber poked his head through a clear spot and said "While you eat you could even tell me what the silver lining of all this is."

"Huh, honestly, this is about par for the course through these parts. My first time through we had a group of thirty five. Some fool merchant got in a tizzy thinking some of his goods had been stolen. Got a bloody nose thinking about all the profits he would lose and called down shades on all of us. eight of us survived that first night."

He took a bite of the porridge. It wasn't half bad. He even felt better!

"I'd guess we lose about ten more before this trip is through and that's if we're all smart about it. How's that for silver lining? You might walk away from this trip."

Cain happily continued to eat.

Edit:

Sorry. I had this ready to go an hour ago, but my computer died. I posted it as soon as It came back on.

Edited by Elkanah
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"Everyone! Lo and Behold!"

"Look at what I have found have found!"

"Someone completely impervious to salt!"

"Oh but tell me, didn't you taste it?" He cocked his head, "Don't you even taste your food before swallowing it? That is not a good way to go about the world."

"Or perhaps you simply can not taste anything, that would be interesting!"

 

"That would be your silver lining, me walking out of here," he dropped from the tree onto the road, "I personally wouldn't mind seeing one of those shades up close. And if i die..."
He shrugs.

"Not much else to do these days."

 
 
 
 
Quote

 

The art...

of making horrible porridge.

He looked at the enormous amount of salt contained in the pouch and grinned.

 

I did put a whole pouch of salt into that porridge you are eating. it is not good for you.

:P

 

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Alright I reread the thread and honestly it just made me even more solidified on Mist. Mist voted last on Striker and it felt quite a bit like protecting a teammate, so currently I think Mist and TGK are teammates together. 

Conversely, if Mist flips village, I'd honestly mostly consider TGK as a heavy village read.

Regardless I think lynching Mist is our best option right now.

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14 minutes ago, Kidpen said:

Conversely, if Mist flips village, I'd honestly mostly consider TGK as a heavy village read.

Why? I can understand the first part of your post, but I don't follow this train of thought.

also, the Mist lynch train is very strange. I'm pretty sure I tried to start it last cycle and it didn't take off. There is no new information on them now, so why did all the people change?

They might be sus, but they aren't on the stat's sheet, so it's definitely their first ever game. Even being sus, I'd like to leave them alive another cycle or 2 at least?

Edited by Furamirionind
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7 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

Why? I can understand the first part of your post, but I don't follow this train of thought.

I think his reaction in this cycle is pretty villagery. I've never seen him react like that while an elim. That may just be that I haven't seen him as elim enough though and it's partially a gut read which is why I am sort of reserving judgement until the mist flip.

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