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Mandamon

20200427 - Fall of the Imperium Ch 12 - 6995 words - Sub 23

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Hey! Not only is it only one chapter this week (though a long one), it's totally new content! I moved this chapter in front of the last E/I ones you've read on the last time through. I think this order works but let me know as we get through those chapters next time. Let me know what you think!

Previously:
S/E/I arrive in the other facet with their news of the Elg. The Eff and court are there, E has problems with trust, and E/I learn about their folks. The Eff faints shortly thereafter. E battles the voices inside her as they travel to the Ari, and attacks S. In the Ari enclave, I struggles with his image, we learn of the Ari, and E and I use each other's houses for the first time.
M arrives with the society to the Imp and is attacked by Elg. People die and M finds himself with more and more responsibility as they attempt to figure out what's going on. They learn the Eff is also killed, and M makes clever use of a portal to save his life.
Ri and co arrive on HD's homeworld, gather themselves, then engage the Elg in the Imp. They barely escape, and find out where other refugees have gone.
S/E/I learn more about the Ari and find there's only one hammock in the bedroom. They all attempt to pass through the wall, but are stopped by the Elg. S devises a new plan and they try again, with disastrous results.

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I forgot to make notes as I was reading, so that is probably a good thing. For the most part, I thoroughly enjoyed this chapter. 

I felt a little adrift for the first page or two. I was having trouble orienting myself back in M's timeline. However, that could just be WRS. By the time they were on the roof, I was grounded and engaged. There were some nice subtle details where M displayed more emotion.

The switch to R's POV worked well for me. I was excited when the two groups met. 

I was thrown a little by R's reaction to M. I remebered her being on the council, but didn't recall if she had any kind of connection or relationship with him. Her reaction here made me think they were close, that he was a sort of grandfatherly mentor, not just a colleague. However, it has been a while since I read Seeds. This could very well be a lapse in my memory. If this were already published and it had been a couple years since I read the first book, I would assume I had just forgotten. 

The end of the chapter left me very excited to read on. If this were something I had bought, I would not be able to stop without turing the page. 

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Posted (edited)

On 4/27/2020 at 4:23 AM, Mandamon said:

Not only is it only one chapter this week (though a long one), it's totally new content!

I never read the previous draft, so I'm unbiased! Yay!

Thoughts as I go:

Pg 1, " a high-end pet store" Completely off topic, but my local pet shelter has had all of its cats either adopted or fostered. Happy news!

Pg 1, "G grumped" I liked this word play.

Pg 1, "If he was leading the [masters] now, then he was going to lead them." I find this sentence kinda awkward, but I also get what you are going for. This is probably more of a personal opinion than anything. 

Pg 2, "the things were congregating" RIP E and S.

Pg 2, "docks near lake T." I think lake should be capitalized?

Pg 4, "nor was T.D." I will miss their stuttering.

Pg 5, "The victim could be unfrozen once deceased": Thrifty, economical, brutal. I do worry about the future of the universe if the Symphony is militarized...This could lead to some rather dark consequences...

Pg 5, "like a spider rolling up its web in the morning" Today I learned about orb weaver spiders.

Pg 6, " they could see a multitude of possibilities and pick between them." Hmm...trying to fit in Master Memory Wipe into this...House of Time??? Hmmm....

Note: If you have something preferably over Master Memory Wipe for our BBEG, let me know.

Pg 6, " the Council hadn’t wanted to put forward funds for renovations": That is the most government thing ever.

Pg 7, "a cold but necessary calculation": I am grateful not to be in a leadership position and I pity M. Dude needs hugs.

Pg 7, "He wouldn’t lose anyone else." Guaranteed lie :(

Pg 11, " It obviously perceived what they were doing in some manner." I kinda wonder if it sounds like a dinner bell. COOOOME AND GET IT!!! A musical feast?

Pg 11/12, "the Specie F waggled a paw at her." Do you mean waggled a paw at him?

Pg 13, " A few seconds more and they would have a captured invader." Alright, what's going to go wrong now...

Pg 13, "That was when the void opened." I knew it. It couldn't be that easy :( 

Pg 14, " called for its fellows to arrive": Or did MMW?

pg 14, "had they been drawn by the concentration of changes": This lends to my dinner bell theory.

Pg 18, "His eyes were wet as he stumbled after the others." Oh, poor M!

Pg 16, "R gestured O forward." POV change! I don't recall a change in the middle of a chapter before, but POV switches rarely bug me. 

Pg 17, "a hole dissolved into the metal side" If they can eat impenetrable crystal, I am not surprised they can dissolve metal.

Pg 19, "Maybe they could turn them on the Elg." Hah!

Pg 19, "raised the repeating crossbow she had gleefully taken with her": I may have to finish this chapter tomorrow. I'm getting towards my bedtime and read "crossbow" as "eyebrow." That sentence gets incredibly weird when you switch those two words.

Pg 20, " the safest way to begin with is a dead one": I agree with this statement.

Okay, I'm just too tired to give any further quality critiques. I shall come back and edit this tomorrow. Goodnight, ya'll. 

I have returned to finish.

Pg 22, " careful not to show any ankle" Blasphemous! 

Pg 22, "Fading Hands" You forgot to italicize the F. 

Pg 22, "She despised feeling helpless." I hate feeling helpless alongside characters...

Pg 23, "the unmistakable bulk and huge bushy white beard of M" Whoohoo! I love it when two worlds meet!

Pg 24, " far enough away from the creatures' disruption,"

Pg 25, "Something grabbed her boot, pulling her away from escape." It can't be an Elg...? She would vanish instantly...hmmmm...

Pg 26, "Elg grasping her boot,": This begs the question...does the Elg have to touch organic, living material in order to make someone die...or do the Elg know who R is because of MMW hunting S??? Hmmm...Or was R not disintegrated because she was grabbed just as the portal was closing??? Hmmm...

Pg 27, "splattered into a smear of purple": Rats!

Pg 28, " taking a chunks of the ground": Singular or plural???

Pg 28, "F winced as his knee joints returned to normal." Oh, you poor baby...

Pg 30/31, "the Elg could make itself understood to anyone, anywhere" Elg can 1) eat crystal 2) make themselves understood like crystal 3) don't have a typical biological matter 4) are the opposite of the Symphony ... Elg are like opposite crystal creatures of horror. 

Pg 31, "crest expanded and with excitement,"

Pg 33, "Behind her were the ruins of City D": This feels like a punch in the heart. 

Pg 35, "Surely you have contacted the Council?" Awwwwkwaaaaard...

Pg 39, "as if a whole group of maji made the change at once" Who is this!? It can't be S...and I don't think it is Re... 

I hate waiting...if this had been handed to me as a full manuscript, this is definitely one I would have blasted through due to sheer suspense...

Edited by Snakenaps
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Overall

I don't have a lot to comment on at all! Good progression, good tension, and I didn't even mind all the characters because there was so much movement. The end confused me, as it seemed like some sentences might have been cut off. Like it ended just a touch early. It was interesting to see Mand interact with the others, and I loved his little twist of villain there with the death squad. His emotions are still really stilted, which shows a lot more when his POV butts up against Ril's. You do your best emoting with the apprentices, I think, for sure. 

But yes, and an easy and relatively smooth read, with only minor quibbles. Good momentum!

 

As I go

- wait, there are animals to be hunted in the Net? Where is this novella??

- pg 2: why did the pixies need coins to go to a place that needed workers? I'm missing the logic trail here

- pg 5: they're like a giant execution mob! Grab your pitchfork!

- pg 7: If he could have spoken to one of the confounded things without it trying to eat his face <-- I laughed

- pg 11: I like this blending of all the houses. What fun!

- pg 15: He was so sure of himself at the beginning, it seems strange that after one person dies he is suddenly all defeated. It seems... out of character? Or rather maybe that I expect more emotion if he is going to give up. That might be it.

- pg 19: I'm confused on timelines. Is Mand working independently of Ril and Ori? Wouldn't they have better communication than that?

- pg 24: excellent tension through here!

- pg 25: who hadn’t admitted it was dead. <-- the humor through here is excellent

- pg 31: well I'm glad someone else thinks this death mob seems a little weird

- pg 37: did...the end get truncated?

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Thanks to @shatteredsmooth, @Snakenaps, and @kais!

 

On 4/27/2020 at 9:20 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

I forgot to make notes as I was reading, so that is probably a good thing. For the most part, I thoroughly enjoyed this chapter. 

 

13 hours ago, kais said:

I don't have a lot to comment on at all! Good progression, good tension, and I didn't even mind all the characters because there was so much movement

Seems like this one went pretty well. 

On 4/27/2020 at 9:20 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

I was having trouble orienting myself back in M's timeline. However, that could just be WRS. By the time they were on the roof, I was grounded and engaged. There were some nice subtle details where M displayed more emotion.

Hopefully just WRS? the last M chapter was pretty early on in the book. If you were engaged pretty quickly, then I think that's ok.

On 4/27/2020 at 9:20 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

I was thrown a little by R's reaction to M. I remebered her being on the council, but didn't recall if she had any kind of connection or relationship with him. Her reaction here made me think they were close, that he was a sort of grandfatherly mentor, not just a colleague.

They definitely have a history. It's not explored overly much in Seeds, but she does refer to him with respect. He's also in Tuning the Symphony, so he's been involved in R's development since she was an apprentice.

14 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

Pg 1, " a high-end pet store" Completely off topic, but my local pet shelter has had all of its cats either adopted or fostered. Happy news!

Yay!

13 hours ago, kais said:

- wait, there are animals to be hunted in the Net? Where is this novella??

Ah...this may happen with the second book of Journey. The epigraph is penned by the mother from that book!

14 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

Pg 2, "the things were congregating" RIP E and S.

Lol

14 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

Pg 5, "The victim could be unfrozen once deceased": Thrifty, economical, brutal. I do worry about the future of the universe if the Symphony is militarized...This could lead to some rather dark consequences...

Um. yes.

14 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

Pg 5, "like a spider rolling up its web in the morning" Today I learned about orb weaver spiders.

I'm here to help!

14 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

Pg 6, " they could see a multitude of possibilities and pick between them." Hmm...trying to fit in Master Memory Wipe into this...House of Time??? Hmmm....

Note: If you have something preferably over Master Memory Wipe for our BBEG, let me know.

Glad to see how this is landing. That name is fine...

14 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

Pg 6, " the Council hadn’t wanted to put forward funds for renovations": That is the most government thing ever

I love putting in these little zingers.

14 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

I'm getting towards my bedtime and read "crossbow" as "eyebrow." That sentence gets incredibly weird when you switch those two words.

hahaha!

14 hours ago, kais said:

The end confused me, as it seemed like some sentences might have been cut off. Like it ended just a touch early.

I did change this around a little because I moved the chapter forward. I'll see if I can smooth it out.

14 hours ago, kais said:

- pg 2: why did the pixies need coins to go to a place that needed workers? I'm missing the logic trail here

Mostly for color and to show things happening in the Imp. I can adjust this.

14 hours ago, kais said:

- pg 15: He was so sure of himself at the beginning, it seems strange that after one person dies he is suddenly all defeated. It seems... out of character? Or rather maybe that I expect more emotion if he is going to give up. That might be it.

Ah, good point. Yep, probably need to bump up the emotion with him as usual.

14 hours ago, kais said:

- pg 19: I'm confused on timelines. Is Mand working independently of Ril and Ori? Wouldn't they have better communication than that?

Probably WRS. They haven't actually seen each other since before Ri and O went to the prison in Seeds! M's been off on his own little mission.

Thanks all! This was a fun chapter to write and it I think it came across that way too...

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18 minutes ago, Mandamon said:

They definitely have a history. It's not explored overly much in Seeds, but she does refer to him with respect. He's also in Tuning the Symphony, so he's been involved in R's development since she was an apprentice.

15 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

OK, that makes sense.

I haven't read Turning the Symphony yet. 

15 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

Pg 1, " a high-end pet store" Completely off topic, but my local pet shelter has had all of its cats either adopted or fostered. Happy news!

 

Hooray!! Happy kitties! 

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No specific catches from me! 

The pet store seemed like an odd detail at first but looking back I don't know why it stood out. Probably just me :-)

For some reason this Chapter dragged for me until the last third. It took me a couple tries to read the first 2/3 and normally I can read your chapters (or multiple chapters) easily in one sitting. Based on the other comments this wasn't the case for other readers though. Everything fit really well, I could picture the action, I really have no complaints. Maybe I'm just having an 'off day.'

Thanks for sharing!

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I went back and finished my critique. I just edited my previous comment to keep them all together. 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks @Sarah B and thanks again to @Snakenaps!

8 hours ago, Sarah B said:

The pet store seemed like an odd detail at first but looking back I don't know why it stood out. Probably just me

I'll try to incorporate more like this in later drafts so it doesn't stand out as much.

8 hours ago, Sarah B said:

For some reason this Chapter dragged for me until the last third. It took me a couple tries to read the first 2/3 and normally I can read your chapters (or multiple chapters) easily in one sitting. Based on the other comments this wasn't the case for other readers though. Everything fit really well, I could picture the action, I really have no complaints. Maybe I'm just having an 'off day.'

Heh--could be! At least everything seemed to fit. I usually trim out the last bits of fluff on the last pass, so that may be what snagged you.

7 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

I went back and finished my critique. I just edited my previous comment to keep them all together.

Thanks!

On 4/29/2020 at 0:00 AM, Snakenaps said:

Pg 23, "the unmistakable bulk and huge bushy white beard of M" Whoohoo! I love it when two worlds meet!

This was really fun to write!

On 4/29/2020 at 0:00 AM, Snakenaps said:

Pg 26, "Elg grasping her boot,": This begs the question...does the Elg have to touch organic, living material in order to make someone die...or do the Elg know who R is because of MMW hunting S??? Hmmm...Or was R not disintegrated because she was grabbed just as the portal was closing??? Hmmm...

I think @Robinski made this point in one of the earlier chapters, that the Elg would have to actually enfold something to disappear it. in this case I was trying to show that a little better. I added this at the last minute, so I'll smooth it out. Regardless, some weird things going on with the portal.

On 4/29/2020 at 0:00 AM, Snakenaps said:

Pg 30/31, "the Elg could make itself understood to anyone, anywhere" Elg can 1) eat crystal 2) make themselves understood like crystal 3) don't have a typical biological matter 4) are the opposite of the Symphony ... Elg are like opposite crystal creatures of horror. 

Hoping to keep this up through the whole book! One of the comments the first time around was they weren't scary enough.

On 4/29/2020 at 0:00 AM, Snakenaps said:

Pg 35, "Surely you have contacted the Council?" Awwwwkwaaaaard..

Haha. Yep!

On 4/29/2020 at 0:00 AM, Snakenaps said:

Pg 39, "as if a whole group of maji made the change at once" Who is this!? It can't be S...and I don't think it is Re... 

I hate waiting...if this had been handed to me as a full manuscript, this is definitely one I would have blasted through due to sheer suspense...

Awesome feedback. Just what I'm looking for from this ending.

 

Edited by Mandamon
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I got lost incredibly easily, but 100% believe its due to me not being here for the earlier stuff so I don't mind it too much. :blink:

I really enjoyed page 6 with MA hating on the stairs (Im like, "ME") BUT the part of me that was a hotel employee for 5 years and trained in emergencies was annoying and like,  "in an emergency, they be advised to NOT take an elevator/elscator". UGh safety training. But I still really connected with not wanting to take the stairs. Thats all they have here in Japan. :(

The part that got me confused was like pages 8-12. I was confused because wasnt it mentioned earlier that they dont add their songs together anymore? And that the first time in a long time it happened with the other group? What prompted them to try this ASAP? I mean I am not complaining, its great they are taking immedate action (unlike current events cough cough) but I am confused.

Other than that, it was really good.

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Thanks @CherishLarain!

10 hours ago, CherishLarain said:

I really enjoyed page 6 with MA hating on the stairs (Im like, "ME") BUT the part of me that was a hotel employee for 5 years and trained in emergencies was annoying and like,  "in an emergency, they be advised to NOT take an elevator/elscator". UGh safety training. But I still really connected with not wanting to take the stairs. Thats all they have here in Japan. :(

Lol. I lived on the 6th floor of my dorm in college for 5 years. I understand hating stairs.

10 hours ago, CherishLarain said:

I was confused because wasnt it mentioned earlier that they dont add their songs together anymore? And that the first time in a long time it happened with the other group? What prompted them to try this ASAP?

Good catch! Yes, this was mentioned earlier, but M does have a lot of experience with these types of changes and has been teaching the others. I'll look back to make certain there are no contradictions.

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Hey, ho.

I'm going to send you LBLs. I have a lot of little things, but only a handful of large points, which I'll paste in here.

(page 20)

So, I've been chuntering through the chapter quite happily at a reasonable pace, and the only 'major' point I have is that the two conversations are quite similar, both concentrated on how to catch an El. `the first one with Man has a decent amount of setting and preparation for the encounter, and springing the trap, but I think it's a bit slow, and could be judiciously edit to remove a page (probable) from language tweaks alone, which would make it more urgent too. The second scene, there is good dialogue, but there is no setting, so I don't know quite there they are and what they're doing. Are they walking somewhere? I think they are, but it's quickly lost in the conversation.

(page 21)

- "the street they were on" - Yeah, it's not like there were any markers really of where Man et al were, but I wonder if there might be one clue. A tree building (whatever), the one the others climbed up, and not R's crew are approaching it.

- "Fading Hands" - Ah, it's been too long since we got a mention. Nice.

(page 22)

- "nearly as tense as the string on her repeating crossbow" - Hmm, would she keep it under tension when there's no knowing how long it might before she needs to use it? I thought good practice for bows was to keep the string loose, but I'm no expert.

(page 23)

- "Go! Go!” she shouted to the ones in front of her" - I feel they would not all be standing around wondering what to do. These are intelligent maj.

(page 24)

- "ran through the opposite side of the portal" - Ooh, did not remember you could do that (if I even knew before).

(page 25)

- "front end of an El grasping her boot" - why doesn't her foot disappear immediately on contact?

(page 29)

- "The diplomat looked shaken" - I don't really follow this paragraph. One group heard the words and one didn't? But no, because R did, but MF's group did too.

- I had no notion that the Eta was not a maj. Basically, I think I just assume everyone in the story is s maj, because it seems to me that a substantial majority of the characters are.

- "translated the communication of the L" - why a Lo? I still have trouble keeping straight the characteristics of each species. I do not remember them.

(page 32)

- "In front of her was a plain" - This feels repetitive. The plain was raised before, but then glossed over as we went on to something else.

(page 35)

- "We were there for that" - the last half dozen pages in the chapter are really slow, for me. We know all this stuff. It's all very well seeing their shocked reactions, but it rings hollow, I think, because of that pre-knowledge. Also, their reactions are not emotional enough, IMO. "The entire Council was dissolved," Ori asked. 

(page 36)

- "remembered from council meetings" - repetitive. This must be the third or fourth time that R has remembered something from a Council meeting.

- "Not with those knees" - LOL. She makes an excellent point, though. It was why Startrek Original Series was such bunkum in may respects. No way the captain of the shop goes an all those landing parties. (Wonderful, enjoyable, life-changing bunkum, though :) ).

- "for some reason" - Harsh. It's clear for anyone to see that he was acting from the best of intentions, and did not know, in fact was not at the time, the only surviving Cuncillor. 

(page 37)

- "It seems we have similar aims with respect to these creatures" - :blink:. Why on earth wouldn't they? This does not bear voicing out loud, IMO. Man is smarter than this.

- "They fill the streets" - They don't really though. The 'goodies' wouldn't be able to walk around in the Imp like they did, and take up positions, like at the top of the building. The El would be everywhere, unavoidable, if they 'filled' the streets.

(page 38)

- That does not sound like an ending line for a chapter. There's no drama in it, IMO.

Overall 

It's a long old chapter, in which not a great deal actually happens. A group go up a building then come back down. Another group meet them, make a portal and they all escape. They kill and El, then, they talk a bunch, saying a lot of things the reader knows already. I can see why you would want to have the emotional payoffs, but the payoffs are lost, I think, because we've already seen the drama ourselves, in person.

I know there's a good chapter in here, and many of these passages are satisfying, but I really don't think it needs to be 7,000 words. I feel that it could be 5,000/5,500 without too much heartache. There's quite a bit go repetition and wordiness that I feel can be cut.

The ending has the scope to be a nice reveal. Brandon would give us the reveal, and have us anticipate the fallout from that, but this ending sounds very much like the middle of a paragraph, IMO.

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Thanks @Robinski!

On 5/1/2020 at 5:36 PM, Robinski said:

`the first one with Man has a decent amount of setting and preparation for the encounter, and springing the trap, but I think it's a bit slow, and could be judiciously edit to remove a page (probable) from language tweaks alone, which would make it more urgent too. The second scene, there is good dialogue, but there is no setting, so I don't know quite there they are and what they're doing. Are they walking somewhere? I think they are, but it's quickly lost in the conversation.

Good points, and fairly easy to adjust. I can work on cutting the first part down and adding some more details to the second.

On 5/1/2020 at 5:36 PM, Robinski said:

- "front end of an El grasping her boot" - why doesn't her foot disappear immediately on contact?

The Elg seem to be able to choose what they dissolve, so I was thinking this one was trying to pull her in closer.

On 5/1/2020 at 5:36 PM, Robinski said:

- I had no notion that the Eta was not a maj.

Hmm...I thought I said this at the start of that section. I'll check.

On 5/1/2020 at 5:36 PM, Robinski said:

Also, their reactions are not emotional enough, IMO

I think this may be the crux of this matter.

On 5/1/2020 at 5:36 PM, Robinski said:

It's a long old chapter, in which not a great deal actually happens. A group go up a building then come back down. Another group meet them, make a portal and they all escape. They kill and El, then, they talk a bunch, saying a lot of things the reader knows already. I can see why you would want to have the emotional payoffs, but the payoffs are lost, I think, because we've already seen the drama ourselves, in person.

Yep, I can chop this down. A lot of these things have been set up since the end of the first book, and this is the first time the characters team up, so I wonder if part of it is WRS?

Thanks for the LBLs!

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1 hour ago, Mandamon said:
On 01/05/2020 at 10:36 PM, Robinski said:

- "front end of an El grasping her boot" - why doesn't her foot disappear immediately on contact?

The Elg seem to be able to choose what they dissolve, so I was thinking this one was trying to pull her in closer.

I guess they do, although I hadn't really thought of it till now. Seems a little convenient in this moment.

1 hour ago, Mandamon said:

A lot of these things have been set up since the end of the first book, and this is the first time the characters team up, so I wonder if part of it is WRS?

I do like to see them teaming up. I was trying to get at the fact that we know those events, so I think it would read better if we concentrate on, and there was more, emotion reaction to the news of the death of the Councillors, and of the Eff. Is there a circumstance here where Man could be named defacto Eff? Maybe not, but certainly head of the Council, and to name a new Council in absentia? I love all the political stuff.

2 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Thanks for the LBLs!

Always a pleasure. Not a cringe amongst them ;) 

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4 hours ago, Robinski said:

I guess they do, although I hadn't really thought of it till now. Seems a little convenient in this moment.

There's a minorly contradictory point to this at the end of the books, so let me know what you think (if you remember) when it comes up...

4 hours ago, Robinski said:

I think it would read better if we concentrate on, and there was more, emotion reaction to the news of the death of the Councillors, and of the Eff. Is there a circumstance here where Man could be named defacto Eff? Maybe not, but certainly head of the Council, and to name a new Council in absentia? I love all the political stuff.

Check on more emotion. That's going to be a large part of the next draft.

There is some political stuff coming up soon! I may need to add more in on the next draft, though.

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