What came first, the Spren or the Oaths

[Nellac]

The title is pretty self explanatory. I want to know which was first, the Radiant spren or the Oaths. Now, we know that the spren created surgebinding trying to mimic the honorblades. We also know that the surgebinders later  organized themselves into orders based on the heralds. Each order built their oaths on the virtues their chosen herald displayed. Now, this is where it gets interesting. The Oaths perfectly fit the characteristics of that orders spren, which perfectly fit the attributes of that orders herald. So, back to my original question, which was first, the Oath or the spren? 

If it was the spren then there are a couple of things that don't make sense. Why these particular spren? The Bondsmith spren make sense as they seem to be much larger then all the others, but why Ashspren but not Firespren? Also, it seems far too coincidental that the power the spren give and the ideals that they follow fit perfectly in with the heralds. Especially when Brandon has said you can in fact bond any spren, but the benefits of doing so would be less then that of a radiant spren. 

I think that the Oaths created the spren that we know today as radiant spren. I believe the ability to form the nahel bond strengthened a certain type of spren's intelligence. This would explain why some spren that you wouldn't think should be more intelligent then others are. Lets go back to the example of Ashspren. Ash doesn't seem to be a deeper idea or a more thought about concept, and yet ashspren have a higher intelligence then many other spren like rainspren or firespren. The creation of the Oaths and the orders of Radients by the Nahel bond would've granted the spren a higher intelligence and perhaps it also gave them more of an alignment with the oaths that they are bound to. This explains both why these spren are more intelligent and why they perfectly align with the heralds ideals and powers.

 

[+Invocation]

The spren. Ishar made the Orders, but spren bonds and Surgebinding that mimicked the Honorblades existed before that, and they were sorted into the Orders, implying there wasn't much of a change beyond the Connection-wrangling Ishar did.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Invocation

[Frustration]

Spren predate the Shattering of Adonalsium.

[Honorless]

Ashspren probably do embody a deeper idea than physical ash. And Inkspren more than ink.

The spren were there before the Oaths, of course, and I don't think they changed significantly following the creation of the Orders. Rather, the spren that could mimic the effects of the Honorblades were the ones that came forth and formed the Orders.

Edited April 24, 2020 by R J

[+Oltux72]

8 hours ago, Nellac said:

The title is pretty self explanatory. I want to know which was first, the Radiant spren or the Oaths. Now, we know that the spren created surgebinding trying to mimic the honorblades. We also know that the surgebinders later  organized themselves into orders based on the heralds. Each order built their oaths on the virtues their chosen herald displayed.

That is debatable. It looks rather like the Heralds imposed the oaths and established the orders.

8 hours ago, Nellac said:

If it was the spren then there are a couple of things that don't make sense. Why these particular spren? The Bondsmith spren make sense as they seem to be much larger then all the others, but why Ashspren but not Firespren?

The Heralds or Honor picked them.

 

[Frustration]

44 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is debatable. It looks rather like the Heralds imposed the oaths and established the orders.

Would have been Ishar

44 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The Heralds or Honor picked them.

No this took everyone by surprise, no spren where picked

[+asmodeus]

No-one picked or created the Oaths. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren themselves:

Quote

 

Blightsong

Were the ideals of the Knights Radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally?

Brandon Sanderson

*apprehension*. This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example two Knights Radiant in the same Order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a Windrunner will speak the oaths. It's a slightly different take on the same concept. Some are moreso, like Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths, so.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

The Oaths should have been around for as long as there have been spren-bonding human Surgebinders on Roshar, regardless of what Ishar did.

[+Oltux72]

55 minutes ago, asmodeus said:

No-one picked or created the Oaths. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren themselves:

The Oaths should have been around for as long as there have been spren-bonding human Surgebinders on Roshar, regardless of what Ishar did.

Well, no. That is a logical short circuit.

Let me give you an example. If you drill for oil, geology will determine the result. It was decided millions of years ago what areas have oil and which areas have not. But that does not tell you whether somebody will try to drill for oil in the first place. In the same vein, the potential oaths of an order may be computable from the Surges or the Herald of the order or something else. But that does not tell you whether the oaths were always necessary.

[Ripheus23]

Easy: it was sproaths.

[+asmodeus]

On 4/24/2020 at 1:36 PM, Oltux72 said:

Well, no. That is a logical short circuit.

Let me give you an example. If you drill for oil, geology will determine the result. It was decided millions of years ago what areas have oil and which areas have not. But that does not tell you whether somebody will try to drill for oil in the first place. In the same vein, the potential oaths of an order may be computable from the Surges or the Herald of the order or something else. But that does not tell you whether the oaths were always necessary.

Yes, it does. This is a world and magic of Honor.

Honor, unlike Preservation or Ruin, isn't a state of the world independent of life and the living. Honor is about living a certain way. Honor is about being bound by rules you do not have to be bound by.

Even the Honorblades, like the Shardblades, have been called "the mark of an Oath." It'd be pretty weird if there was no Oath involved when the original Honorblades were first created and given to the Heralds (probably the Oathpact itself). They are literally _Honor_ blades - why would there not be an Honor component to them? How can there _not_ be an Honor component to them?

Then, if the spren copied the Honorblades in creating Surgebinding and the first Surgebinders, wouldn't the requirement of at least one initial Oath come with it?

Here's another parallel - when the Heralds decided to break their Oathpact, they left their respective Honorblades behind.

When the Radiants broke their Oaths, they left their Shardblades and Shardplates behind.

Now, this isn't exactly bulletproof, and you can still argue for a scenario where Oaths were not a part of the first wave of Surgebinding. I just find it weird that any system where Honor plays an integral role wouldn't have an aspect of being bound by some sort of ruleset to get the power.

Edited April 28, 2020 by asmodeus