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Hentient

Shallans oaths

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Has Shallan spoken all five oaths? 

I know that pattern said in WoR that she had no more words to say, but that she had things to do, referring to the fact that she needed to accept her past. Does this mean that she has spoken all five Lightweaver oaths, and that she needs to overcome her terrible coping mechanism to be a full Knights Radient? If she has spoken all of her oaths, that doesn't make sense, because in Kal's case, the words only come when he's ready for them, so how would she have known them/ spoken them? 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Hentient said:

Has Shallan spoken all five oaths? 

I know that pattern said in WoR that she had no more words to say, but that she had things to do, referring to the fact that she needed to accept her past. Does this mean that she has spoken all five Lightweaver oaths, and that she needs to overcome her terrible coping mechanism to be a full Knights Radient? If she has spoken all of her oaths, that doesn't make sense, because in Kal's case, the words only come when he's ready for them, so how would she have known them/ spoken them? 

Shallan has not spoken all of her oaths. Lightweavers don't speak any oaths besides: "Life before death, Strength before weakness, Journey before destination." They speak truths instead. Shallan has to speak truths about herself, which will eventually keep her from lying to herself, forcing her to cope with her past. We saw some of this in Oathbringer.

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When she was a child, we know she had made it as far as the Third, to get her Blade, and based on her reaction to Jasnah questioning her about having Plate, we can infer that she had probably made it at least to that Fourth Oath as well. It wouldn't be much of a surprise if she had capped it all with the Fifth, honestly. 

As to how, it has to do with the difference between Lightweaver Truths and the typical Oath progression. I think you could probably speedrun the Lightweaver bond if you're self-aware enough to recognize the truths you need to give up to your spren, but this WOB indicates there might be something funky with how young she was when she managed to manifest her bond. Could have something to do with whatever Unmade was messing around with her family potentially. 

Quote

Questioner

Why don't you have to say the words if you're just bonding a Cryptic?

Brandon Sanderson

Every Order's First Oath is the same. Then the Second Oaths for the Cryptics go into truths, but everybody says the First Oath the same regardless of Order. Which should raise the question of--

Questioner

Did Shallan say it when she was a teeny-weeny, like in the cradle?

Brandon Sanderson

That should raise a question. She wasn't teeny-weeny, but it should raise a question there.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

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According to Brandon, Shallan was at the 4th level at the end of WoR, and we don't see her swear anything in Oathbringer, so she's still on the 4th.

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42 minutes ago, RShara said:

According to Brandon, Shallan was at the 4th level at the end of WoR, and we don't see her swear anything in Oathbringer, so she's still on the 4th.

When did Brandon say this?

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Just now, Karger said:

When did Brandon say this?

Quote

tganchero (paraphrased)

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan was a step higher than Kaladin.

Words of Radiance Lexington signing (March 18, 2014)

 

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Just now, RShara said:

When did Brandon say this?

I personally find this WoB confusing and untrustworthy both because of the paraphrase and because it does not seem to make sense in context.

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12 minutes ago, Karger said:

I personally find this WoB confusing and untrustworthy both because of the paraphrase and because it does not seem to make sense in context.

Except that it does make sense? She swore the first one offscreen, or it was leftover from her being one as a child. Then I'm Frightened/I killed my father/I killed my mother. That makes 4.

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Just now, RShara said:

Then I'm Frightened/I killed my father/I killed my mother. That makes 4.

Except she doesn't have her armor at the end of WoR(unless she does and is just being Shallan again) which every other order we know of would have by now.  I also find it doubtful that truths correspond 1 to 1 the same way the other oaths do if they are really individual in nature could their not be any number of them?

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16 minutes ago, Karger said:

Except she doesn't have her armor at the end of WoR(unless she does and is just being Shallan again) which every other order we know of would have by now.  I also find it doubtful that truths correspond 1 to 1 the same way the other oaths do if they are really individual in nature could their not be any number of them?

I don't think armor is automatic. You need to know how to do it. And Shallan isn't interested in doing so.

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

Except she doesn't have her armor at the end of WoR(unless she does and is just being Shallan again) which every other order we know of would have by now.  I also find it doubtful that truths correspond 1 to 1 the same way the other oaths do if they are really individual in nature could their not be any number of them?

My personal theory is every order is different and until I get confirmation from Brandon nothing will sway me, no way did Renarin Swear three Ideals between the Arena and OB, not happening.

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

Except she doesn't have her armor at the end of WoR(unless she does and is just being Shallan again) which every other order we know of would have by now.  I also find it doubtful that truths correspond 1 to 1 the same way the other oaths do if they are really individual in nature could their not be any number of them?

That scene at the end of OB, since the real Shallan was Radiant, some people suspect she did manifest Shardplate

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42 minutes ago, Frustration said:

My personal theory is every order is different and until I get confirmation from Brandon nothing will sway me, no way did Renarin Swear three Ideals between the Arena and OB, not happening.

If you look closely you can almost see what might have been ideal three early during oathbringer.  I even have a theory on the subject.  I also believe that R swore ideal two right before entering the arena or at least reached the point where swearing was possible. 

10 minutes ago, R J said:

That scene at the end of OB, since the real Shallan was Radiant, some people suspect she did manifest Shardplate

Which is why Shallan is so aggravating.  Also perpendicularity shenanigans.

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I'm pretty sure her first truth was "I'm terrified" towards the end of WOK - Pattern reacts accordingly, at least. The other two were more obvious, so that makes it 3 truths/4 oaths.

Technically, there could have been an off-sceen truth, but the aim of Lightweavers on the path to the last truth seems to be figuring themselves out (becoming "honest" on top of "creative", the two Divine Attributes of the Order), and she isn't there yet at all, so I doubt it. She might have reached the fourth or fifth oath before (definitely went far enough to have the Shardblade), but fell back to oath 1 because of her new lies/loss of self-honesty due to trauma.

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17 hours ago, Frustration said:

My personal theory is every order is different and until I get confirmation from Brandon nothing will sway me, no way did Renarin Swear three Ideals between the Arena and OB, not happening.

Renarin's situation isn't exactly helpful in determining things like this due to the nature of his Bond. He very well might have different rules than a normal Truthwatcher. Also, I'm not sure I understand what you mean about him swearing three ideals between the arena and OB. He had been carving on the walls about the Everstorm well before the Arena, so it's likely he swore at least the Second ideal by the end of WoR. Whether he swore the Third offscreen somewhere in the beginning of OB, I can't say. But I don't see that as an impossibility, these books are long, Brandon can't fit everything in them. 

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