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Oltux72

Theological interactions between Survivorism and Pathism

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These religions do not exist independent of each other, obviously. Sazed was a member of Kelsier's crew and Kelsier held the Shard of Preservation for some time before Sazed took it up. That all is known to at least educated Scadrians of all religions. There are also religious texts, The Words of Founding, whose authorship is a matter of historical record. Socially their members intermarry and interact normally.

So how do they do this, theologically?

  1. Kelsier - is it accurate to see his role in Pathianism like Chrisyians see Old Testament Prophets?
  2. Harmony - what exactly is Harmony to a Survivorist? An extremely powerful, immortal being, but not a god? SOmehow I cannot square that with the universal reaction to Kandra. SO what is Harmony? No terrestial equivalent?
  3. Words of Founding - are they holy to both religions, just fundamentally differently interpreted?
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5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Kelsier - is it accurate to see his role in Pathianism like Chrisyians see Old Testament Prophets?

Pathians see him as just a political or historical figure would be my guess.

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Harmony - what exactly is Harmony to a Survivorist? An extremely powerful, immortal being, but not a god? SOmehow I cannot square that with the universal reaction to Kandra. SO what is Harmony? No terrestial equivalent?

According to Marasi he is more of a force.  He doesn't do much and is pretty impartial.  As such praying to him is not a particularly effective way of getting things done.

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Words of Founding - are they holy to both religions, just fundamentally differently interpreted?

The Historica seems to be claimed as canonical by both pathians and survivorists.  The Words of Founding are just a record like a library.  The Historica just tells people about what actually happened during the war of ash and immediately prior.  Ascribing divine intention or fate of some kind to figures in it is possible but it is left up to the reader.

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Is it actually known that Kelsier held the Preservation shard briefly?  I though all his veneration came from being so publically killed and then having a Kandra run around impersonating him, giving him a resurrection tale.  

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Is it actually known that Kelsier held the Preservation shard briefly?  I though all his veneration came from being so publically killed and then having a Kandra run around impersonating him, giving him a resurrection tale.  

Marasi and that Kandra that came to recruit her seemed to indicate that it was known that he held the power for a while before passing it on to Vin

 

What happened during the Catacendre was recorded by Sazed, barring a few edits like info about Hemalurgy.

The Pathians probably see him as a saviour or saint  kind of figure, they seem to believe he did his role and passed it on

The Survivorists seem to think of Harmony as a living force of nature while Kelsier is something more like Jesus in Christianity, I think

The Words of Founding are holy texts to both religions and just interpreted differently, yes. Marasi talks about this with Wax and MeLaan 

Edited by R J
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My real question is where silverism fits in during all of this.  We know practically nothing about them.

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57 minutes ago, Karger said:

My real question is where silverism fits in during all of this.  We know practically nothing about them.

I thought it was a Rashek Cult left over from the days of the Empire spearheaded by Yomen

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43 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I thought it was a Rashek Cult left over from the days of the Empire spearheaded by Yomen

A bit insensitive.  Yomen did found it and Marsh features prominently in their religion but we don't know anything about them.

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8 hours ago, Frustration said:

I thought it was a Rashek Cult left over from the days of the Empire spearheaded by Yomen

Though it raises the question of whst has happened to the Final Empire's official church. It cannot have escaped some of them that they were surviving in TLR's bunkers. He did provide and he did keep the Darkness away many times. So everybody stopped worshipping him? I can understand people stop admitting it. The ruling powers were very much against their religion. But how and why was it completely lost? Is it really fully lost?

10 hours ago, R J said:

The Survivorists seem to think of Harmony as a living force of nature while Kelsier is something more like Jesus in Christianity, I think

But then why this adoration for the Kandra?

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53 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But then why this adoration for the Kandra?

For Pathians, the Kandra are Harmony's agents. For Survivorists, the Kandra were Kelsier's agents, who did his work after his death

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, R J said:

For Pathians, the Kandra are Harmony's agents. For Survivorists, the Kandra were Kelsier's agents, who did his work after his death

That would make sense, but in the Allomancer Jak short story, there's this footnote by Handerwym that states otherwise (kinda close to the beginning):

Quote

Never Mind that the Faceless Immortals are a mythological feature of the Path, not Survivorism. This theological mixup has never bothered Jak.

 

The religions on Scadrial are definitely weird and I have a hard time wrapping my head around them as well. I have kinda come to peace with the thought that they are comparable to certain ancient cultures that worshipped one specific god in a pantheon while not denying the existence/godliness of the other ones. That's apparently called "monolatry" (here's the Wikipedia article). I don't know if that's actually how it works on Scadrial, but it's how it makes sense to me.

Edited by Elegy
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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Though it raises the question of whst has happened to the Final Empire's official church. It cannot have escaped some of them that they were surviving in TLR's bunkers. He did provide and he did keep the Darkness away many times. So everybody stopped worshipping him? I can understand people stop admitting it. The ruling powers were very much against their religion. But how and why was it completely lost? Is it really fully lost?

But then why this adoration for the Kandra?

"Sliverism" is the descendant of the religion of the Final Empire, originally centered on "The Sliver of Infinity" that Rashek proclaimed himself. No doubt the Era 2 doctrine plays up how everything he did was key to defeating Ruin ("The Deepness") in the end, and honoring Marsh as the last Inquisitor and thus a direct link to the Lord Ruler's Steel Ministry (even if by all accounts he had worked to overthrow it, and personally killed 8 Inquisitors before being seized by Ruin - a tally only Vin can claim to have surpassed).

As for the "adoration of the Kandra", well you see, when Harmony Ascended there were these three Wise Men who traveled from distant Dominances but were actually kandra, who visited and brought gifts. Wait, no, sorry, I'm getting things a little mixed up...

If you mean why Governor Aradel is so respectful of the kandra at the end of The Bands of Mourning - he is a Pathian!

As for others like Marasi who are Survivorists, remember that they still acknowledge Harmony as "God" in their present day, and the Words of Founding as more or less true. They simply also revere Kelsier as the Survivor of Death and an acknowledged Sliver (mentioned in the WoF) who had held Preservation before Vin or Harmony, and most importantly, hold to his life philosophy over that of Sazed's. That means valuing and promoting independence of thought and action, ambition, and working for change - in a way, the positive aspects of Ruin. (As Ruin jibed at him in Mistborn: Secret History, "Why, Kelsier... You're merely an aspect of me, after all!")

Yes, Survivorist mobs were riled up to riot against Pathians by their exposure in Shadows of Self. Part of that is because a mob is a mob. Another part of that is the infuriating and patronizing smugness inherent in the doctrinal relationship between the two. They work off of the same core basis: Preservation/Ruin, the Well of Ascension trap, Rashek's Ascension, the events involving Kelsier's crew overthrowing him, the Ascension of Kelsier, then Vin, then Harmony, the remaking of the world, etc....

But Pathians will always, at some level, have a perceived attitude of: "Aw, it's so cute that you skaa still think Kelsier is God of the Mists when it was all revealed to be a kandra trick! Lookit, TenSoon is still around to tell you about what both OreSeur and he did with his bones, and hey I think he may still have them stashed somewhere? Wanna see Kelsier in the flesh? Send 1000 of the box tops from Soonie Cubs to 100 Copperton Road, Second Octant, Elendel, ...."

This even though Harmony explicitly forbids proselytizing to Survivorists - heck, one of the core tenets of Pathianism is not even to worship Harmony.

Edited by robardin
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On 4/22/2020 at 0:10 PM, Oltux72 said:

Chrisyians

Jesus Chrisy!

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Posted (edited)

On 4/23/2020 at 9:01 AM, robardin said:

"Sliverism" is the descendant of the religion of the Final Empire, originally centered on "The Sliver of Infinity" that Rashek proclaimed himself. No doubt the Era 2 doctrine plays up how everything he did was key to defeating Ruin ("The Deepness") in the end, and honoring Marsh as the last Inquisitor and thus a direct link to the Lord Ruler's Steel Ministry (even if by all accounts he had worked to overthrow it, and personally killed 8 Inquisitors before being seized by Ruin - a tally only Vin can claim to have surpassed).

As for the "adoration of the Kandra", well you see, when Harmony Ascended there were these three Wise Men who traveled from distant Dominances but were actually kandra, who visited and brought gifts. Wait, no, sorry, I'm getting things a little mixed up...

If you mean why Governor Aradel is so respectful of the kandra at the end of The Bands of Mourning - he is a Pathian!

As for others like Marasi who are Survivorists, remember that they still acknowledge Harmony as "God" in their present day, and the Words of Founding as more or less true. They simply also revere Kelsier as the Survivor of Death and an acknowledged Sliver (mentioned in the WoF) who had held Preservation before Vin or Harmony, and most importantly, hold to his life philosophy over that of Sazed's. That means valuing and promoting independence of thought and action, ambition, and working for change - in a way, the positive aspects of Ruin. (As Ruin jibed at him in Mistborn: Secret History, "Why, Kelsier... You're merely an aspect of me, after all!")

Yes, Survivorist mobs were riled up to riot against Pathians by their exposure in Shadows of Self. Part of that is because a mob is a mob. Another part of that is the infuriating and patronizing smugness inherent in the doctrinal relationship between the two. They work off of the same core basis: Preservation/Ruin, the Well of Ascension trap, Rashek's Ascension, the events involving Kelsier's crew overthrowing him, the Ascension of Kelsier, then Vin, then Harmony, the remaking of the world, etc....

But Pathians will always, at some level, have a perceived attitude of: "Aw, it's so cute that you skaa still think Kelsier is God of the Mists when it was all revealed to be a kandra trick! Lookit, TenSoon is still around to tell you about what both OreSeur and he did with his bones, and hey I think he may still have them stashed somewhere? Wanna see Kelsier in the flesh? Send 1000 of the box tops from Soonie Cubs to 100 Copperton Road, Second Octant, Elendel, ...."

This even though Harmony explicitly forbids proselytizing to Survivorists - heck, one of the core tenets of Pathianism is not even to worship Harmony.

This, and the way the two communities work, is part of why it’s always reminded me of the relationship between Judaism (Path) and Christianity (Survivor). Makes you wonder which is the Islam equivalent in the relationship.

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

This, and the way the two communities work, is part of why it’s always reminded me of the relationship between Judaism (Path) and Christianity (Survivor). Makes you wonder which is the Islam equivalent in the relationship.

Well, in the Christianity parallel, Kelsier the Survivor of Death did in fact have a Second Coming where he went to the Southern Hemisphere and got all Savior-like all over again. So... Sovereignism? Whatever the Southern Scadrians call "the Jaggenmire" and their reverence for Metalborn as having "little slivers of God"?

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Just now, robardin said:

Well, in the Christianity parallel, Kelsier the Survivor of Death did in fact have a Second Coming where he went to the Southern Hemisphere and got all Savior-like all over again. So... Sovereignism? Whatever the Southern Scadrians call "the Jaggenmire" and their reverence for Metalborn as having "little slivers of God"?

That one felt more like a King Arthur myth/‘Nordic’ mythology, from what little we know of it. I think Kell took a more political role (as he actually ruled) there. He also seems to have tried to explain some things, but it got lost in translation... or Allik just really wasn’t paying attention in school.

An Islam equivalent would be a religion that, say, worships Vin, but also venerates Kell and acknowledges Saze as God. I’m not sure we have one yet, and we may not get one...

Unless that’s what the Set is trying to set up.

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I'd compare it to Jewush and Christian relationships. Strained and even violent and times, but mostly peaceful. 

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On 5/9/2020 at 1:49 AM, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I'd compare it to Jewush and Christian relationships. Strained and even violent and times, but mostly peaceful. 

Peaceful was an exception, not the rule for Jewish/Christian relationships. It’s rather hard to find an inch of European soil NOT stained with Jewish blood. When you find it, it’s usually because no Jews ever lived there... Mostly bloody, occasionally peaceful is more accurate.

Survivorist/Pathian relationships are MUCH better.

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6 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Peaceful was an exception, not the rule for Jewish/Christian relationships. It’s rather hard to find an inch of European soil NOT stained with Jewish blood. When you find it, it’s usually because no Jews ever lived there... Mostly bloody, occasionally peaceful is more accurate.

Survivorist/Pathian relationships are MUCH better.

Not really, you have to remember that time seems less on hindsight, and while never perfect we don't see mass conflict until the first crusade, or was the plauge first? Whichever that still leaves about a thousand years(to my knowledge) of mostly peaceful interactions. That was followed by a few centuries of intermittent strife, with the Crusades, Reconquista (did I spell that right?) and such.

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29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not really, you have to remember that time seems less on hindsight, and while never perfect we don't see mass conflict until the first crusade, or was the plauge first? Whichever that still leaves about a thousand years(to my knowledge) of mostly peaceful interactions. That was followed by a few centuries of intermittent strife, with the Crusades, Reconquista (did I spell that right?) and such.

This is my history, so I actually know it. The conflict goes back to the Roman Empire. Between Crusades you had blood libels and exiles, in addition to the regular persecution. We weren’t allowed to do most business, and we could only live in a few places. Forced conversions weren’t uncommon. This went on for a really long time. Christmas was a pretty common time for massacres.

The first Crusade was in the late 1000’s; the Bubonic plague (first outbreak) was later. There is a lot of fascinating, and horrific, Jewish history here, if you are interested in studying it.

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7 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Peaceful was an exception, not the rule for Jewish/Christian relationships. It’s rather hard to find an inch of European soil NOT stained with Jewish blood. When you find it, it’s usually because no Jews ever lived there... Mostly bloody, occasionally peaceful is more accurate.

Survivorist/Pathian relationships are MUCH better.

I certainly recognize that in the early days it was terrible (as a Christian I'd argue the crusades are one of Christianity's greatest failures) , but I was referring to more modern relationships (holocaust aside). Anti-semitism is still sadly and embarrassingly common but overall it's pretty peaceful.

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On 23/04/2020 at 3:01 PM, robardin said:

As for the "adoration of the Kandra", well you see, when Harmony Ascended there were these three Wise Men who traveled from distant Dominances but were actually kandra, who visited and brought gifts. Wait, no, sorry, I'm getting things a little mixed up...

If you mean why Governor Aradel is so respectful of the kandra at the end of The Bands of Mourning - he is a Pathian!

Yet Steris calls a kandra 'Holy One'. She is a Survivorist. So what is going on there?

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yet Steris calls a kandra 'Holy One'. She is a Survivorist. So what is going on there?

Survivorists don't deny that Harmony exists, is divine, is the "God of Scadrial", and that the kandra are His agents subject to His direct control.

Remember, they don't venerate Kelsier as THE God. They venerate Kelsier as also being a divine being - Harmony Himself recognizes that Kelsier had Ascended - and moreover, they venerate what Kelsier advocated and represented as a worldview over the passivity and reflectiveness of Pathians. They place Kelsier over Harmony in their regard not because of his power level, but because of how the religion works for them in everyday life.

They also believe he still Survives, out there in the mists, and is still doing things to push people forward. And... They're not wrong. Learning about The Sovereign and his actions in the Southern Hemisphere would probably not rock their world so much as feel like a giant Toldjaso. (Sure they'd be bug-eyed over the news, but from feeling validation, not "this changes everything!")

In fact, despite a recent post observing how surprisingly "behind" Scadrians of Era 2 are in Realmatic Theory compared to contemporaneous knowledge on other major Shardic worlds like Taldain, Nalthis, and Roshar, and how ignorant their own double Shard Harmony is about the nature and origin of the powers that he wields (as he is the only living Shard whose Vessel was not present at the Shattering), post-Catacendre Scadrians are far more aware of the nature of their gods than on those other Cosmere worlds as being originally human, of local Scadrian origin with known names and personal histories. That even includes the "Sliverists" who venerate Marsh the Last Inquisitor and likely, the memory of Rashek, the Lord Ruler, and his Steel Ministry.

Edited by robardin
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On 6/14/2020 at 2:10 PM, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I certainly recognize that in the early days it was terrible (as a Christian I'd argue the crusades are one of Christianity's greatest failures) , but I was referring to more modern relationships (holocaust aside). Anti-semitism is still sadly and embarrassingly common but overall it's pretty peaceful.

About a decade before the Holocaust there was a massacre in Hungary. That ‘modern’ enough? There were pogroms after the Holocaust, too.

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21 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yet Steris calls a kandra 'Holy One'. She is a Survivorist. So what is going on there?

I don't think survivorists see Kelseir as a deific figure so much as a paragon in some ways. They don't really have monotheism even as a concept on scadrial.  Being respectful to the agent of an acknowledged omnipotent being makes sense. 

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9 hours ago, Karger said:

I don't think survivorists see Kelseir as a deific figure so much as a paragon in some ways.

So Kelsier is kind of a prophet telling fundamental truths?

9 hours ago, Karger said:

They don't really have monotheism even as a concept on scadrial.

Right, so let's touch the dicey subject. What is Ruin in their theology?

9 hours ago, Karger said:

  Being respectful to the agent of an acknowledged omnipotent being makes sense. 

Yes.

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